I am therefore I think.

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rojharris
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:57 am

How does the sense of control show up, at this point?
Is there any sense of ownership, or doer-ship in everyday actions?
How do things happen?
How are decisions made?
Hmmm.. On some level there's still a feeling that 'I' am doing things as I go about my day. Mostly I don't think about it, just get on with stuff. On a deeper level I know that there's actually no one here to control anything. Somehow its all just happening by itself. I have no idea how, just that 'I'm' not doing it :-).

Decisions are made seemingly in response to thoughts stimulated by events or other thoughts occurring. I can't drill down to the precise moment the decision is made, it's more like I'm aware of it and actions happen. If I try and think about it then it's already in the past. A done deal. A memory, not Actual Experience.
Third, if a nagging interest in this aspect does arise later but the experience has not become persistent, there ARE more advanced practices I can point you to, to try to deepen that experience, after Liberation Unleashed. For our purposes here in The Gate forum, the point is simply to see clearly that there is no person. This was seen clearly.
I'll see how it goes for a while. I'm going to see if that open, spacious feeling returns while I keep watching stuff happen. It's definitely faded now, like a fond memory. My monkey mind questions if it really happened or did this person just stop thinking for a few seconds.. When it happened there was categorically nobody here though, so I know that the sense of a person is just a story.

I'm thinking I might go back and re-read some of the material on this stuff now that I have glimpsed through the veil as it were. (Tony Parsons, Sailor Bob etc.) Do you think that's a bad idea?

Cheers,
R

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gondwana
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby gondwana » Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:33 pm

Somehow its all just happening by itself. I have no idea how, just that 'I'm' not doing it :-).
it's more like I'm aware of it and actions happen.
Yes!
If I try and think about it then it's already in the past. A done deal. A memory, not Actual Experience.
You catch on fast ;)
It's definitely faded now, like a fond memory. My monkey mind questions if it really happened
Those are both a normal part of the process.
When it happened there was categorically nobody here though, so I know that the sense of a person is just a story.
And this is really the most important part, not those precious two things. This knowing cannot be un-known now.
I'm thinking I might go back and re-read some of the material on this stuff now that I have glimpsed through the veil as it were. (Tony Parsons, Sailor Bob etc.) Do you think that's a bad idea?
Yes normally at this point I’d recommend you take a few days to let this all sink in, and keep looking for the (lack of) doer in everyday experience during that time.

But Tony Parsons and Sailor Bob are two we specifically recommend as further reading, so watching their stuff and using their pointers to deepen this seeing over the next few days is a perfectly good idea. I wouldn’t recommend *every* source at this point, but those two definitely are compatible with where you are right now.

Write back in a little while or as often as you feel like, and share what comes up!
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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gondwana
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby gondwana » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:45 am

Hi, how is that going?
Any updates?
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rojharris
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:57 am

Hi Tim,

Sorry its been quiet... I'm really busy at the moment with work so not getting much time to stop and just 'watch'.

I read Tony's 'Open Secret' book again but this time I understood exactly what he was saying so decided not to read anything else for a while. I'm trying to notice what's happening right now as I walk the dogs as that's the only time I'm not nailed to my desk! So far I haven't had the same experience of vanishing that I had before but I am aware that there's nobody here doing stuff.

Other than just paying attention to what is arising in the moment and just watching it I'm not sure what else to do to try and repeat/strengthen that 'spacious' feeling again.

Cheers,
Roger

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gondwana
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I am therefore I think.

Postby gondwana » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:43 am

Sorry its been quiet... I'm really busy at the moment with work so not getting much time to stop and just 'watch'.
Sorry for the delayed response. Ok that’s fine, but just be aware, what often shows up is the “self” trying to cling on by throwing up distractions of 1001 other things which are more important RIGHT NOW and why the looking must be delayed until some future time. Remember, that these are always just stories.

What could possibly be more important than finding ever-lasting happiness and wellbeing???

In reality, THIS (that which we are looking to see here) is immediately available to be seen, in every single moment, of every single day. No matter what task is being undertaken! It is there every second, available to be seen easily. People just do not look.

So even while at work on a task, say, simply look and see if there is a “self” required to do the task, or is it just happening? This can be looked at and seen any time. The more often it is seen, the more easily and permanently it will stick.
I read Tony's 'Open Secret' book again but this time I understood exactly what he was saying
This is often evidence that seeing has already happened. Suddenly all the books and pointers make sense! I think in your case it was already seen, but doubt is cropping up. Doubt is often due to unmet expectations.

Simply keep re-looking and re-seeing, no matter what task is being done at any time, for a “self” in existence. This will clear any doubt.
So far I haven't had the same experience of vanishing that I had before but I am aware that there's nobody here doing stuff.
Also, let’s clear these expectations. Tell me, when in life has any real experience turned out to be exactly as it was imagined/expected? This was also illustrated with the very first experiment we did with eating fruit. Expectations are ALWAYS wrong.

There is an expectation here that the sense of self will permanently vanish. That is not necessary! Sometimes, it may vanish for a while, or just momentarily, sometimes it will return. No matter at all. ALL that is important is the KNOWING that it is an illusion, the ability to remember that when needed.
I'm not sure what else to do to try and repeat/strengthen that 'spacious' feeling again.
This is another expectation, that there will be a permanent feeling of spaciousness. For some there is, some of the time, for others less so. No matter.

It’s all what we would call free ‘candy’ that comes with the awakening. But the real awakening is seeing through the illusion for good. Not the candy. Once the illusion of the “self” is seen as just an illusion, we can never really go back to believing in it. Like Santa Claus.

Over time, old conditioning attached to the belief in a “self” will then fall away, but it takes time to completely fall. This may be experienced as a sudden greater ease in self-related situations, less buying into the story of “me, me, me”!

Does this resonate with your experience at all?
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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rojharris
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:12 am

What could possibly be more important than finding ever-lasting happiness and wellbeing???
Ha ha. Well, I am often working as part of a small group of people who rely on me doing a good and timely job, so wellbeing and happiness will have to wait a while or I'd be letting them down and that's just selfish.

Seriously though, I'm generally already a happy person so I don't feel like I'm in a hurry to get anywhere. In fact now I don't even think there's anyone here to get happy. It's an emotion that floats up every now and then along with all the others.
I feel kind of ambivalent..
It is there every second, available to be seen easily.
Perhaps. I'd question the 'easily' bit. For me it takes quite a bit of sitting quietly trying to calm the mind and focus on the present moment to get that feeling of 'everything just happening all by itself'. Sometimes it doesn't come even though I know it's there and I am looking. I saw it very clearly that one time (past, memory??) but it's not an every minute thing for me yet. This causes an element of frustration which of course derails the whole process.
So even while at work on a task, say, simply look and see if there is a “self” required to do the task, or is it just happening? This can be looked at and seen any time. The more often it is seen, the more easily and permanently it will stick.
I think I'm doing this wrong slightly as when I do look I can see that stuff is just happening, typing, seeing, hearing etc. but there's also a slight questioning in my mind along the lines of "Am I doing this right? Is this what he means, just noticing things or am I supposed to be seeing/feeling something more?"... which, as you say, is doubt creeping in...
There is an expectation here that the sense of self will permanently vanish. That is not necessary! Sometimes, it may vanish for a while, or just momentarily, sometimes it will return. No matter at all. ALL that is important is the KNOWING that it is an illusion, the ability to remember that when needed.
Understood.. I'm caught between 'believing' and 'knowing' at the moment... must drop the expectations!
This may be experienced as a sudden greater ease in self-related situations, less buying into the story of “me, me, me”!
This is definitely happening. Things that used to annoy or irritate me aren't so much anymore. The emotions/feelings still come up but I realise they are not happening to 'me' and will pass quickly.

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gondwana
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby gondwana » Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:33 pm

In fact now I don't even think there's anyone here to get happy. It's an emotion that floats up every now and then along with all the others.
Bingo! You saw it again. That's all we are looking for here.
I feel kind of ambivalent..
Emotions *can* still happen, as was seen. For some they lessen. But in all cases, there should be a lightening of the burden of emotions, as they may now seem less 'sticky' and less able to pull you into long thought chains?
I think I'm doing this wrong slightly as when I do look I can see that stuff is just happening, typing, seeing, hearing etc. but there's also a slight questioning in my mind along the lines of "Am I doing this right? Is this what he means, just noticing things or am I supposed to be seeing/feeling something more?"
Is this "Am I doing this right?" just a thought?
Isn't thought just happening, like all the other stuff is just happening?

The trick is not to grasp onto the content. Thoughts may still arise... Let them! Sights and sounds are perceived from the external surroundings all the time, and in a similar way we have "internal" surroundings (the mind) from which thoughts (mind sights and mind sounds - including that voice in your head) are received. In both cases things are just arising and there is simply the observing of the surroundings going on, regardless external or internal. Can you work with that?
Understood.. I'm caught between 'believing' and 'knowing' at the moment... must drop the expectations!
Good, we're not looking to create any new beliefs. In which areas does doubt remain? We will examine them.
The emotions/feelings still come up but I realise they are not happening to 'me' and will pass quickly.
Great, this is it right here! They are not personal. There is no person for them to BE personal TO.
The sense of it happening to "me" is just an illusion :D

Has anything else changed or anything new to report?
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rojharris
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:28 am

Emotions *can* still happen, as was seen. For some they lessen. But in all cases, there should be a lightening of the burden of emotions, as they may now seem less 'sticky' and less able to pull you into long thought chains?
This is definitely happening. If something comes up that's frustrating or annoying for example, I can just focus on what is here now in experience/sensation and just observe the thoughts and they pass very quickly. It's interesting that a decision is being made to do this in response to negative emotions. That implies a learned behaviour, even when there's no person to learn it. Cool!
Is this "Am I doing this right?" just a thought?
Isn't thought just happening, like all the other stuff is just happening?
Oh yeah! D'oh!
In both cases things are just arising and there is simply the observing of the surroundings going on, regardless external or internal. Can you work with that?
Yes. Makes sense. It's difficult to observe and also know that there is no observer because questioning thoughts come up and scupper things. ("if there is observation, logic dictates that there must be an observer" etc.)
In which areas does doubt remain? We will examine them.
Am I really seeing that there is nobody here or am I just stopping thought for a while, i.e. I am not necessarily defined by thought but even without it something is here.... This is not really a big issue as its quite tenuous. In the end it doesn't matter if peace and happiness persist.
Has anything else changed or anything new to report?
The old frustration of trying to achieve something has gone now. Nobody to achieve it. It's interesting that knowing this hasn't impacted my life much.. Chop wood, carry water etc.

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rojharris
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:37 pm

:-)

The problem is that little 'er' and 'ing'! Get rid of them and it's simple:

There is no observer observing. There is only the observed
There is no thinker thinking. There is only the thought
There is no feeler feeling. There is only the felt
There is no listener listening. There is only the heard
There is no doer doing. There is only the done

Blimey! A poem wrote itself! Ha Ha!

R

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gondwana
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby gondwana » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:45 am

The problem is that little 'er' and 'ing'! Get rid of them and it's simple:

There is no observer observing. There is only the observed
There is no thinker thinking. There is only the thought
There is no feeler feeling. There is only the felt
There is no listener listening. There is only the heard
There is no doer doing. There is only the done
Perfect! The answer was seen clearly, before I could even write back :)

And so, if the above is the case, js there any need for a self in all this at all? Don’t all these things just arise without any doer/feeler/listener etc?

They work just fine without it.

And what does this mean for control? If there is only the done, is there even a controller or again just the done?
I am not necessarily defined by thought but even without it something is here....
Good, it was spotted. So after thought dissolves, something does still remain. Undeniably.

What is it that remains?

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rojharris
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:53 pm

And so, if the above is the case, js there any need for a self in all this at all? Don’t all these things just arise without any doer/feeler/listener etc?
Nope, no self necessary. In fact it's all too immediate. By the time a 'self'/ 'mind' kicks in to interpret what was seen/heard/felt etc. then it's too late. It's just attaching story to memory.
And what does this mean for control? If there is only the done, is there even a controller or again just the done?
Again, no controller; things are happening before there's a controller to control them.
So after thought dissolves, something does still remain. Undeniably. What is it that remains?
Hard to put into words without using 'advaita speak' but there's just awareness.... maybe not even that.. there's just immediate experience. That's it, nothing more.

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gondwana
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I am therefore I think.

Postby gondwana » Fri Dec 14, 2018 7:50 pm

By the time a 'self'/ 'mind' kicks in to interpret what was seen/heard/felt etc. then it's too late. It's just attaching story to memory.
things are happening before there's a controller to control them.
Nicely put! This seems very clear.

Exactly, things always happen before the ‘self’, the illusion of a controller, or the interpretation of events — all of which are thoughts, just story — appear.
Hard to put into words without using 'advaita speak' but there's just awareness.... maybe not even that.. there's just immediate experience. That's it, nothing more.
Indeed, words fail at this point. We could also say ‘knowing’ in place of awareness, right? The knowing of something is the being aware of it.

Now, take a close look in direct experience.
In the case of the heard, is there any separation at all between the heard, and the knowing of it?
Any separation at all between the seen, and the knowing of it?
Any separation at all between a sensation, and the knowing of it?
Any separation at all between a thought, and the knowing of it?
Is there any separation between the known, and the knowing of it, at all?
Or merely, the ‘knowingknown’ going on, so to speak?
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rojharris
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:53 am

In the case of the heard, is there any separation at all between the heard, and the knowing of it?
Any separation at all between the seen, and the knowing of it?
Any separation at all between a sensation, and the knowing of it?
Any separation at all between a thought, and the knowing of it?
Is there any separation between the known, and the knowing of it, at all?
Or merely, the ‘knowingknown’ going on, so to speak?
No separation at all. There is nothing here to do 'knowing'. There is only the known. Again, words fail.... There is no time difference between the 'thing' (thought, sound, sensation etc.) and the knowing of the thing.

So if there is just knowing/awareness, when there is for example the sound of my computer fans and also the sensation of my feet on the floor, both these things are noticed and there is no 'me' between them and awareness of them and yet they are separate from each other. Thoughts are happening as I write this that are again separate from the sound and the sensation. So these things are all just happening by themselves and yet they are 'known' as different things?

I can clearly see that there is no one here doing the knowing, that the self is an illusion, but I don't see the "This is all one thing" yet. Not right at this moment anyhow.

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gondwana
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I am therefore I think.

Postby gondwana » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:56 am

So if there is just knowing/awareness, when there is for example the sound of my computer fans and also the sensation of my feet on the floor, both these things are noticed and there is no 'me' between them and awareness of them and yet they are separate from each other. Thoughts are happening as I write this that are again separate from the sound and the sensation. So these things are all just happening by themselves and yet they are 'known' as different things?
Yes :). They are all just happening; all just known, inseparable from the knowing of it.

And now the knowing of them as DIFFERENT things....

So isn’t the ‘knowing them as different things’ also just a concept? The differences are purely conceptual right? Isn’t this what the mind does...divide things up artificially in order to comprehend them?

What differentiates a sound from a sensation?
A sound from a sight?
Other than “your” apparently “personal” experience that they seem different, is there any absolute objective difference between these things, as far as the universe or life itself is concerned?
Aren’t they all merely experience happening?
Parts of some greater dance?
but I don't see the "This is all one thing" yet. Not right at this moment anyhow.
One way to approach this is in terms of the above.

Can any boundary in fact be found between the experience of sound the the experience of sensation?
Between the experience of sound and the experience of sight?
Is there a hard line there?
Can it be found in direct experience?
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Re: I am therefore I think.

Postby rojharris » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:40 am

So isn’t the ‘knowing them as different things’ also just a concept? The differences are purely conceptual right? Isn’t this what the mind does...divide things up artificially in order to comprehend them?
Ha! Yes, the mind is trying to categorise and partition all the time but of course there is just the experiencing. If 'I' ignore the thoughts arising about what is being experienced, then its clear there is no hard line between one sensation and another.
Can any boundary in fact be found between the experience of sound the the experience of sensation?
Between the experience of sound and the experience of sight?
Is there a hard line there?
Can it be found in direct experience?
Nope. No boundary.

I have noticed that when I just sit and let it all wash over me (not really 'me' but you know what I mean), then I find that the mind is trying to make up a story of what is happening; "See how it's all one", "See how special you are" "This is what its all about". etc. This is difficult to stop but I am trying to just observe these thoughts and let them pass on. The feeling that I have a goal to reach in all this is gradually fading and a more 'resting observation' is happening...


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