liberation from full time seeking

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Saibo
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Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:38 am

Re: liberation from full time seeking

Postby Saibo » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:24 am

Could it be that the silence is the "right" answer? :)
Yes, not such a far fetched idea ☺
Would you say the pull to seek is getting weaker? Although you're still trying to make life easier for yourself?
It is not entirely clear to me. Maybe it’s gotten a bit weaker when I think about seeking in general. I'm not as excited anymore about a Rupert Spira retreat I've booked for August. When it comes to the LU process, there is still a lot of curiosity and drive to continue.
Do you still believe effort is necessary to see what is here now? Do you trust what you see or does it seem this can't be it?
Seeing what is here now without a specific question that I need to focus on does not require effort. I trust the sensations, feelings and thoughts to be real. Conclusions about whether I am the doer, the witness, or whether I don’t exist at all feel a lot less certain.

Is in your experience the idea that there is no self, and no doer and no witness as real or true as the fact that there are sensations, feelings and thoughts?

Even before I started the process the notions of free will and the existence of a self seemed suspect of philosophical and neuroscientific grounds. Now I’ve had some experiences that support the idea that there is no self and no control on a more embodied level. But overall it doesn’t feel like the belief in “no self” is a whole lot different from other beliefs I have. It feels more like that given what I’ve seen and thought “no self” seems to be more likely than “self”. It doesn’t feel like 100% certainty and doesn’t feel that different from other beliefs I have. It also doesn’t feel like some non-conceptual understanding of a deep truth that is beyond thought. Maybe the only part that feels a little bit like beyond thought is that thought itself isn’t taken as serious than before. When thoughts that start with “I” come up in my mind, I question the “I” and see whether feelings and thoughts have to be taken personal and usually they don’t and not many “I” thoughts have been coming up recently. It feels like I’ve acquired a few new habits in the last two weeks.

I can’t with certainty deny that this isn’t it. It could be it.

It doesn’t feel like such a big deal yet and there is the hope that there’s more to it. I can’t quite get away from over 20 dialogues I read in Ilona’s book where people seemed to have strong reactions. One guy said – “no big deal - I wouldn’t recommend it.” Maybe I’m that guy. Or I haven’t seen it yet. Even though I’d still recommend what I’ve seen so far.
Do you expect *this* to become a different kind of *THIS*? More than it is now? Better, more spiritual, lighter, more enlightened, blissful?
“Life is just happening. There is nobody doing anything. There is no separation with life and others” doesn’t seem to be a description of how I experience most of my days.

Generally it feels like I am doing things and like I’m the author of my life and like there are other people that are separate from me.

In a looking session I might have periods where it feels like my body is doing things by itself or where it feels clear that thoughts arise by themselves or where it feels like perceiving something is just perceiving without perceiver or perceived object. I guess I expect these points of view to be more readily available in daily life or quickly accessible when I look for them.

If I had to describe my hopes at the moment it would be an end of seeking and a sense that life is happening and that it is ok to “choose” one path or another as ultimately there is no choice and life will happen as it has to happen. That there is no “I” that needs to achieve great things, or find the one perfect path – there are many enjoyable games in life to be played.

I believe something has already happened here. There is some lightness writing it down. The hope is that this can be seen more fully.

To have the hope list complete there is some hope to feel more of the lightness or joy that sometimes arose in the looking process over the last two weeks. This may not happen and is not the benchmark I use at the moment when I’m thinking: “I’m not there yet”.

Writing these hopes down they seem bigger than I expected them to be - good to have them in front of me. I know they may not come true.

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Canfora
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Re: liberation from full time seeking

Postby Canfora » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:39 pm

I'm not as excited anymore about a Rupert Spira retreat I've booked for August.
I've bought his books after crossing the gate. They're so detailed! I couldn't finish them. Haven't felt the pull to see his talks for a long time.
When it comes to the LU process, there is still a lot of curiosity and drive to continue.
Good to know!
Is in your experience the idea that there is no self, and no doer and no witness as real or true as the fact that there are sensations, feelings and thoughts?
Well, to be honest I don't think about these subjects anymore. Let me try to answer your question. You're talking about experiencing the idea that there is no self as being real or true. To me the question implies a previous experience where the idea was real or true. Yes, I never questioned if a separate self was real before finding LU, so I can say before LU I experienced thinking that I was a self. But nowadays I don't go about everyday life experiencing a improved, new, enlightened "there is no me" way of thinking. Although I'm 100% certain that I am not a separate self the thinking is very very similar to how it was before seeing. And that's ok. I don't know if I answered your question or not. Let me know if I didn't.
Even before I started the process the notions of free will and the existence of a self seemed suspect of philosophical and neuroscientific grounds. Now I’ve had some experiences that support the idea that there is no self and no control on a more embodied level. But overall it doesn’t feel like the belief in “no self” is a whole lot different from other beliefs I have. It feels more like that given what I’ve seen and thought “no self” seems to be more likely than “self”. It doesn’t feel like 100% certainty and doesn’t feel that different from other beliefs I have. It also doesn’t feel like some non-conceptual understanding of a deep truth that is beyond thought. Maybe the only part that feels a little bit like beyond thought is that thought itself isn’t taken as serious than before. When thoughts that start with “I” come up in my mind, I question the “I” and see whether feelings and thoughts have to be taken personal and usually they don’t and not many “I” thoughts have been coming up recently. It feels like I’ve acquired a few new habits in the last two weeks.
Can you please describe HOW you question the "I"? What do you do exactly?
It doesn’t feel like such a big deal yet and there is the hope that there’s more to it. I can’t quite get away from over 20 dialogues I read in Ilona’s book where people seemed to have strong reactions. One guy said – “no big deal - I wouldn’t recommend it.” Maybe I’m that guy. Or I haven’t seen it yet. Even though I’d still recommend what I’ve seen so far.
It is very likely that every time you look you see basically the same. You would see it in Africa and you would see it in Alaska too. You are seeing - for lack of a better definition - life. And you are also it. Do you expect to see something else?
“Life is just happening. There is nobody doing anything. There is no separation with life and others” doesn’t seem to be a description of how I experience most of my days.

Generally it feels like I am doing things and like I’m the author of my life and like there are other people that are separate from me.
Sure. Same here.
In a looking session I might have periods where it feels like my body is doing things by itself or where it feels clear that thoughts arise by themselves or where it feels like perceiving something is just perceiving without perceiver or perceived object. I guess I expect these points of view to be more readily available in daily life or quickly accessible when I look for them.
Ah, this isn't about stabilize and stay in and prove to be true ONE point of view. It's about putting all points of view to the side and look. Looking is readily available in daily life or quickly accessible when you look. Points of view shift all the time. The point of view you had as a small kind is long gone and the one you have now is going to change also.
Writing these hopes down they seem bigger than I expected them to be - good to have them in front of me. I know they may not come true.
At the time being they are adding fuel to the illusion fire. Who knows what will happen? Maybe you will find that you don't care as much as you did before about having good experiences. Maybe you will start to appreciate a larger broad of feelings and sensations. Unpleasantness also has it's place in life, even if we have other preferences.

Take care,
C

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Saibo
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:38 am

Re: liberation from full time seeking

Postby Saibo » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:14 am

Hi Canfora,

Thank you.
Well, to be honest I don't think about these subjects anymore. Let me try to answer your question. You're talking about experiencing the idea that there is no self as being real or true. To me the question implies a previous experience where the idea was real or true. Yes, I never questioned if a separate self was real before finding LU, so I can say before LU I experienced thinking that I was a self. But nowadays I don't go about everyday life experiencing a improved, new, enlightened "there is no me" way of thinking. Although I'm 100% certain that I am not a separate self the thinking is very very similar to how it was before seeing. And that's ok. I don't know if I answered your question or not. Let me know if I didn't.
That answered my question. Thanks.
Can you please describe HOW you question the "I"? What do you do exactly?
When some thought like "I have to do ..." "I want ..." comes up, I either ask "what is "I'?" "Can "I" be found anywhere?" usually the answer is silence. Or I just focus attention on the "I" for a while, usually it dissolves after a while into nothingness. If the "I" thought was emotionally charged then often the emotion feels lighter or disappears when the "I" is gone. The frequency of "I" thoughts showing up has been decreasing.
Ah, this isn't about stabilize and stay in and prove to be true ONE point of view. It's about putting all points of view to the side and look. Looking is readily available in daily life or quickly accessible when you look. Points of view shift all the time. The point of view you had as a small kind is long gone and the one you have now is going to change also.
I've heard the idea that this is not about a particular belief or point of view before. Ilona's book even contains the statement "all beliefs are wrong". I don't really know what this means. In conventional logic and use of language it would seem to be an absurd claim. Maybe it points towards something beyond logic. Practically, guides seem to point towards specific insights (or "beliefs") like "nobody is in control", "life is happening", "there is no self" through their questions.

I think I do understand what looking is and looking is what I'm trying to do.

Best,
Sebastian

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Saibo
Posts: 19
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:38 am

Re: liberation from full time seeking

Postby Saibo » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:32 am

It is very likely that every time you look you see basically the same. You would see it in Africa and you would see it in Alaska too. You are seeing - for lack of a better definition - life. And you are also it. Do you expect to see something else?
I don't expect x-ray vision or anything like that :)
Yes, I expect that there will be sensations, feelings and thoughts wherever I go.
I interpreted the claim that there will be a "perception shift" as meaning that sensations, feelings and thoughts might be seen differently. Maybe this has already happened.

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Canfora
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Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:58 pm

Re: liberation from full time seeking

Postby Canfora » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:46 pm

Hi Sebastian,
When some thought like "I have to do ..." "I want ..." comes up, I either ask "what is "I'?" "Can "I" be found anywhere?" usually the answer is silence.
It seems to me you're mainly thinking instead of looking. Questions are all about thinking!
Do you also look for an I? Using the eyes, using the senses? Do you see what is here? Do you see what isn't here?
Or I just focus attention on the "I" for a while, usually it dissolves after a while into nothingness.
What is this I you focus attention on? Can you describe it for me?
If the "I" thought was emotionally charged then often the emotion feels lighter or disappears when the "I" is gone.
How do you know the I is gone?
Is the I something that comes and goes?
The frequency of "I" thoughts showing up has been decreasing.
Do you think that when the thinking about the I is very frequent that means the I is real?
I've heard the idea that this is not about a particular belief or point of view before. Ilona's book even contains the statement "all beliefs are wrong". I don't really know what this means.
It probably means believes are just beliefs until they become facts. And since facts can also become beliefs we can say they may be wrong. I suppose it's just an invitation to not trust mind too much and keep looking with fresh eyes.
In conventional logic and use of language it would seem to be an absurd claim. Maybe it points towards something beyond logic. Practically, guides seem to point towards specific insights (or "beliefs") like "nobody is in control", "life is happening", "there is no self" through their questions.
Guides have to say something :)
I wouldn't say guides point to specific insights. We point to THIS sight. The one that is here now, in front of your nose, surrounding you. That is the only sight you have to see to check if a real self can be found or not.
I think I do understand what looking is and looking is what I'm trying to do.
I'm not sure you understand. It's very likely that you are dismissing what looking is because... well... you've been doing it all your life and it's a very simple, plain thing to do. Looking is looking. It's seeing. If you look for a pen you know when you find it. There it is, in plain sight and you can even touch it and use it. Simple. If a self is real you have to be capable to see it, just as you can see everything else that is here.
I interpreted the claim that there will be a "perception shift" as meaning that sensations, feelings and thoughts might be seen differently. Maybe this has already happened.
Would you say sensations, feelings and thoughts are what makes you you? It may feel like that, but what is this you then?

Take care,
C


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