No idea

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miked
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Re: No idea

Postby miked » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:31 pm

- Does sensation proof the existence of something real out there? Can you find a something that is experienced?
Could the question be rephrased to "Does sensation prove the existence of seperation or a seperate "I"??

Again the asnwer would be that sensation proves sensation alone.

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wout
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Re: No idea

Postby wout » Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:46 pm

Sensation only proves sensation.
This makes me smile!
- Does sensation proof the existence of something real out there? Can you find a something that is experienced?

Could the question be rephrased to "Does sensation prove the existence of seperation or a seperate "I"??
Damn. That was the next question!

Or more in the line of the previous questions:
- Can you find a dividing line between an experiencer/unit/I/Self/Me/Mike and experiencing?
I'm not sure where this is going? is that okay? haha
- Is not being sure or not knowing a problem outside of the thought about it?
- Can something in experience be sure about experience?

Thought seems to prove it is right itself.
Bodily sensations seem to prove the existence of a body.
Even consciousness/awareness seems to be the evidence of itself.
Until you look.
That's when it all turns out to be circular logic.
I have no clue what is going on here, do you?
Today me will live in the moment. Unless it's unpleasant. In that case me will eat a cookie. ~ Cookiemonster

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miked
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Re: No idea

Postby miked » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:32 pm

"Does sensation prove the existence of seperation or a seperate "I"??
Damn. That was the next question!
No, sensation doesn't say I. Only thought says 'I".
Or more in the line of the previous questions:
- Can you find a dividing line between an experiencer/unit/I/Self/Me/Mike and experiencing?
No, I just find experiencing. There is no dividing line.

-
Can something in experience be sure about experience?
I was thinking about the question we were discussing the other day, something like "Can thought reliably describe experience?". It can't, because thought doesn't know experience.. it can't actually see experience. I will explore this further.

Thought seems to prove it is right itself.
Bodily sensations seem to prove the existence of a body.
Even consciousness/awareness seems to be the evidence of itself.
Until you look.
That's when it all turns out to be circular logic.
I have no clue what is going on here, do you?
Not at all. Hehe

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wout
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Re: No idea

Postby wout » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:04 am

When being alone it is often much easier to see you cannot find a self as a person. But you communicate as 'I' with others, you may experience feelings 'for and about others' or about 'yourself' in relation to others. In general self-ing seems to be taken more seriously when relating to someone else then to something else.

Please do the following when you are actually having a conversation with someone:
When you say a sentence that sounds like "I am ...", "I think ...", "I have..."
- Can you find a Mike that is ...,
- a thinker that thinks ...,
- a someone that does have ...?
(I would advice you to do this briefly only and spread the inquiry over more than one conversation as people might think you have gone nuts if you say: wait a second, let me see if I can find Mike in this concersation) ;-)

Sometimes strong bodily sensations can arise when someone blames you, or when there is a feeling of not being understood, unloved, unseen, not being good enough etc. We all know these repetitive stories.
- When there are strong physical sensations or emotions, is such a sensation or emotion in itself a person/Mike/I or me?
- Is there a Mike/I/me-person somewhere inside a physical sensation or feeling of emotion? You might even really scan the sensation, every little part of it.
- Can you find anything else in experience where a me that is responding in an emotional way is residing?

Enjoy the show!
Today me will live in the moment. Unless it's unpleasant. In that case me will eat a cookie. ~ Cookiemonster

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miked
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Re: No idea

Postby miked » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:58 pm

I'm having a bit of trouble with this inquiry.. experiencing some confusion.. I am going to have another look at your post tomorrow and have another go.

I feel like there is some figuring out trying to happen. doubt, confusion etc. at the same time I have work commitments (I'm an english teacher by day and a private chef by night! :)

I'll have another go tomorrow as i have a dinner to prepare tonight!

Warmly,

Mike

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miked
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Re: No idea

Postby miked » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:47 am

Please do the following when you are actually having a conversation with someone:

The clouds of confusion have lifted and I'm able to answer from DE. I have noticed that what happens is that I am easily able to answer from DE, but when "nothing changes" I assume its not enough just to look into DE honestly and then thought starts to try to FIND the answer! anyway, lets do this!

When you say a sentence that sounds like "I am ...", "I think ...", "I have..."
- Can you find a Mike that is ...,
Outside of the thought there is nothing..
- a thinker that thinks ...,
No thinker, just thoughts arising..
- a someone that does have ...?
again, no.. its just the thought "I have to leave" I cannot find the i to which thought refers, but imagine it refers to something.


Sometimes strong bodily sensations can arise when someone blames you, or when there is a feeling of not being understood, unloved, unseen, not being good enough etc. We all know these repetitive stories.
- When there are strong physical sensations or emotions, is such a sensation or emotion in itself a person/Mike/I or me?
No, there is just a strong sensation, but the sensation doesnt say I nor is it "attached to an I"
- Is there a Mike/I/me-person somewhere inside a physical sensation or feeling of emotion? You might even really scan the sensation, every little part of it.
Again, it doesnt "say" anything.. its just sensation, pure sensation.
- Can you find anything else in experience where a me that is responding in an emotional way is residing?
Thinking back to an argument with my girlfriend I would say "I was so angry".. this statement seems SO TRUE and on some level it seems stupid to question whether there was an actual I that was angry.. It seems like it takes the validity of anger away?? like anger needs to be eliminated so we just say theres no one there? Do you know what I mean?

Thanks for your commitment to this inquiry, friend.

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Re: No idea

Postby miked » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:20 am

I have just had the experience of some strong sensations in the heart centre arise. The sensations arise by themselves.. in DE there is only raw energy in motion, thought arises to label experience.. it may say "I'm being with experience" or "whats gonna happen next" etc etc. But thought isn't experiencing the sensation.. the sensation can be experienced without an I.. there is just the unfolding of sensation. Thinking arises and falls. No one doing the thinking. lol

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Re: No idea

Postby wout » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:43 am

The clouds of confusion have lifted and I'm able to answer from DE.
- Was there anything wrong with clouds of confusion?
I cannot find the i to which thought refers, but imagine it refers to something.
- Does an I-thought create a disfunctional someone?
- Or does an actual I imagine do the referring?
Thinking back to an argument with my girlfriend I would say "I was so angry".. this statement seems SO TRUE and on some level it seems stupid to question whether there was an actual I that was angry.. It seems like it takes the validity of anger away?? like anger needs to be eliminated so we just say theres no one there? Do you know what I mean?
- Is there a required or expected outcome of this inquiry? Something like an emotionless state maybe?
- Can you find the need for anger to be eliminated outside of thought?
- Is there anything wrong with anger/fear/sadness outside of thought about it?

- When the I in the content of thought is not found in DE as a real person, is there a need for emotional states to be different than they are?
- When the I in the content of thought is not found in DE as a real person, does an I-thought have to go away?
Today me will live in the moment. Unless it's unpleasant. In that case me will eat a cookie. ~ Cookiemonster

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miked
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Re: No idea

Postby miked » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:50 am

- Was there anything wrong with clouds of confusion?
Nothing wrong with them.. they did however seem to make answering from DE more challenging. So I waited for them to pass. Clouds of confusion is of course nothing more than a group of thoughts identified with/believed.
- Does an I-thought create a disfunctional someone?
It seems to creates the illusion there is a disfunctional someone.. but in DE an I thought doesn't create an enduring entity, it arises and passes.
- Or does an actual I imagine do the referring?
Sorry I wanna be sure this is written correctly? :)

or does an actual I image do the referring?
- Is there a required or expected outcome of this inquiry? Something like an emotionless state maybe?
I don't think so... i think its the idea of there being anger and no one experiencing it which confuses me.. anger being an emotion that I have identified with a lot as a young boy and to some extent still to this day. The thought 'I am angry' in a moment of anger seems to really point to a someone that is angry! But I want to explore this more deeply.
- Can you find the need for anger to be eliminated outside of thought?
No...
- Is there anything wrong with anger/fear/sadness outside of thought about it?
No... I see this clearly again and again.
- When the I in the content of thought is not found in DE as a real person, is there a need for emotional states to be different than they are?
No, they are as they are.. pure energy in motion.
- When the I in the content of thought is not found in DE as a real person, does an I-thought have to go away?
No, its not a problem because it looses its validity.

Last night i went to take out the rubbish.. my girlfriend asked me to do it.. so I said "i'm going to take the rubbish down" ... and in the moment I looked for an I taking the rubbish down lol.. I didn't find it.. Instead i found "body getting up from the sofa.. walking towards rubbish, taking rubbish, the thought "Im taking the rubbish" etc etc, yet no actual I doing it. It was interesting not to find the I ACTUALLY taking the rubbish down.

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Re: No idea

Postby wout » Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:59 am

Thumbs up. In my experience all answers with regards to emotions are correct if they are honoust. ;-)
- Or does an actual I imagine do the referring?
Sorry I wanna be sure this is written correctly? :)
- Does an actual <I> imagine to do the referring?
- In other words: is there an issue if imagined referring takes place?
- And if so, can you find a someone that experiences that as an issue?
- Is there a required or expected outcome of this inquiry? Something like an emotionless state maybe?
I don't think so... i think its the idea of there being anger and no one experiencing it which confuses me.. anger being an emotion that I have identified with a lot as a young boy and to some extent still to this day. The thought 'I am angry' in a moment of anger seems to really point to a someone that is angry! But I want to explore this more deeply.
Let me rephrase this one too:
- Is there a required or expected result of this inquiry outside of thoughts about it?
- Can you find an end-result of inquiry out side of thought?
- Is there a final state that <you> should reach? Any expectations about the ideal way to deal with emotions maybe?
pure energy in motion.
- What actual experience can you find of pure energy in motion?
- Are those words anything else than a thought label about experience?
- Can you find a me/I/Self/Mike that needs a situation to be neurtralized with a thought label?
- Can such a thought neutralize thoughts or emotions by thinking about them?

Enjoy the weekend Mike!

Grtz Wout
Today me will live in the moment. Unless it's unpleasant. In that case me will eat a cookie. ~ Cookiemonster

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Re: No idea

Postby miked » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:30 am

Thumbs up. In my experience all answers with regards to emotions are correct if they are honoust. ;-)
I like that :-)
- Does an actual <I> imagine to do the referring?
hmm.
- In other words: is there an issue if imagined referring takes place?
Only thought would have an issue with imagined referring.
- And if so, can you find a someone that experiences that as an issue?
No, I find no entity with an issue. Just the current thought that says "there is an issue", but this thought has no reality to it.

- Is there a required or expected outcome of this inquiry? Something like an emotionless state maybe?[/quote]
I don't think so... i think its the idea of there being anger and no one experiencing it which confuses me.. anger being an emotion that I have identified with a lot as a young boy and to some extent still to this day. The thought 'I am angry' in a moment of anger seems to really point to a someone that is angry! But I want to explore this more deeply.
Let me rephrase this one too:
- Is there a required or expected result of this inquiry outside of thoughts about it?
There is no inquiry outside of thoughts.
- Can you find an end-result of inquiry out side of thought?
No.
- Is there a final state that <you> should reach? Any expectations about the ideal way to deal with emotions maybe?
Maybe there is an imagined state of peace/freedom the weight or contraction of thought.. but looking now for the one that wants freedom from the weight of thought I don't find an entity.. I find sensation.

pure energy in motion.
- What actual experience can you find of pure energy in motion?
Pure energy in motion is a label to describe "pure sensation"... which in DE is experiencing.. or THIS.
- Are those words anything else than a thought label about experience?
they are exactly that.
- Can you find a me/I/Self/Mike that needs a situation to be neurtralized with a thought label?
No, no self, just a habitual thinking pattern.
- Can such a thought neutralize thoughts or emotions by thinking about them?
What exactly do you mean by neutralise a thought or emotion? :)

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Re: No idea

Postby wout » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:43 am

Maybe there is an imagined state of peace/freedom the weight or contraction of thought.. but looking now for the one that wants freedom from the weight of thought I don't find an entity.. I find sensation.
  • A state of peace/freedom is an entity/object as well. What is your DE of that state?
  • You can't find the I-entity that imagines the peace-freedom state. Can an imaged-state/goal be reached by experience itself?
- Can such a thought neutralize thoughts or emotions by thinking about them?
What exactly do you mean by neutralise a thought or emotion? :)
It was in respons to this:
they are as they are.. pure energy in motion.
'They are as they are' could be a soothening/neutralizing statement. Something like 'Don't worry about it, it is just ... it means nothing, can't harm me' etc.
If it is neutralizing, it means there must be an entity that needs soothening/neutralizing of the emotion that was present.
Not sure at all if this was the case, but anyway let's check:
  • Can a thought change experience
    (or in other words, can a thought which is part of experience neutralize 'another' experience somewhere out there)?
  • Can a thought quite down an apparent entity which is an inseperable part of the same experience as the thought itself?
In the end the above all boils down to this:
  • Can you find a seperate entity anywhere that either experiences, that is being experienced or that is experience itself?
  • Can experience experience experience?
Today me will live in the moment. Unless it's unpleasant. In that case me will eat a cookie. ~ Cookiemonster

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miked
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Re: No idea

Postby miked » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:14 am

A state of peace/freedom is an entity/object as well. What is your DE of that state?
I'm not sure what you mean? What is my DE of the experience of peace?
You can't find the I-entity that imagines the peace-freedom state. Can an imaged-state/goal be reached by experience itself?
No.
If it is neutralizing, it means there must be an entity that needs soothening/neutralizing of the emotion that was present.
Not sure at all if this was the case, but anyway let's check:
Okay, i understand. I don't think it was/is the case. I say its energy in motion to describe the DE.. 'raw energy' could be another way of describing DE of pure sensation.
In the end the above all boils down to this:
  • Can you find a seperate entity anywhere that either experiences
No, I just find experiencing happening..
, that is being experienced or that is experience itself?
I can only truly say that there is experience. No separate experiencer, nor anything experienced.
[*]Can experience experience experience?[/list]
Again, there arent 3 things in DE.

I have had some days away to really feel into what we have been inquiring into.. watching the wildlife at a park near me.. the feeling of sadness, contraction in the heart, listening to the bird, seeing the sun shining on the water... all of it one experience! no real borders, everything is fine as it is.

Then thoughts arise with 'shoulds and shouldnts'. Then they pass as if they were never there lol. Back to seeing, listening, feeling.

There was and maybe still is an idea that to see 'no self' needs to be a WOW moment or something.. this makes me smile. I don't know anything.

Happy Tuesday, Wout.

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Re: No idea

Postby wout » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:37 am

There was and maybe still is an idea that to see 'no self' needs to be a WOW moment or something.. this makes me smile. I don't know anything.
No bells and whistes, no fireworks in the sky, no-one recognizing you as an enlightened being? This can't be the real deal. ;-)

There are a few more things that might be interesting to look at althhough we have already come across them briefly. When we talk of I/Me this identity seems to have sudden qualities like having free will/controlling abillities and having/being a body.

1. What is your experience of decision making?
- Do you make decisions?
- How does decision making take place?

2. What is your experience of the body?
- With your toes out of sight, can you find 10 toes outside of thought?
- With eyes closed can you locate an arm or leg?
- When you bring attention to your leggs, can attention around in your body without using a thought-map of the body?
- Can you find an actual inside and outside of the body?
- Can you move the body?

3. What seems to be more true: 'There is no-self' or 'I can't find a self' ? Can you explain the difference if you find there is one?

4. What is your experience of others?

5. How would you describe the difference between before we started this conversation and now?

With sunny regards, Wout
Today me will live in the moment. Unless it's unpleasant. In that case me will eat a cookie. ~ Cookiemonster

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miked
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Re: No idea

Postby miked » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:44 pm

No bells and whistes, no fireworks in the sky, no-one recognizing you as an enlightened being? This can't be the real deal. ;-)
However there are experiences that have bells and whistles or WOW's.. that I have experienced.. so maybe I imagine it will be something like that.. but of course they are still ideas.
There are a few more things that might be interesting to look at althhough we have already come across them briefly. When we talk of I/Me this identity seems to have sudden qualities like having free will/controlling abillities and having/being a body.
Okay, cool.
- Do you make decisions?
No, everything happens spontaneously.. there is an idea that I make decisions.. but decisions are made of thoughts.. and i don't think nor influence my thoughts.
- How does decision making take place?
A thought arises "should I go to the park this evening" followed by another thought 'Yes I think i will go to the park this evening" and then another thought arises "I just made a decision". So its a process that happens by itself.

2. What is your experience of the body?
- With your toes out of sight, can you find 10 toes outside of thought?
No.
- With eyes closed can you locate an arm or leg?
No.
- When you bring attention to your legs, can attention around in your body without using a thought-map of the body?
(Was this meant to say "can attention move around"?)
- Can you find an actual inside and outside of the body?
No, 'inside sensations and outside sensations' fuse into each other.
- Can you move the body?
The body moves by itself..
3. What seems to be more true: 'There is no-self' or 'I can't find a self' ? Can you explain the difference if you find there is one?
'There is no separate I outside of thought'. At the moment out of those two statements "I cant find a seperate self" is more true.. because "There is no self" would mean that i'm dead certain.. but in truth i dont even know what a self is hahaha
4. What is your experience of others?
Others are still there.. What do you mean exactly by this question?
5. How would you describe the difference between before we started this conversation and now?
I feel that now there is less trying to figure out and less grasping.. also theres a lot more spontaneous inquiry happening... more flow experienced.
With sunny regards, Wout
Right back at ya! sending you the Barcelona sun.


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