Seen through

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Bananafish
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Re: Seen through

Postby Bananafish » Sun May 13, 2018 12:44 pm

If I drop all theories, I can't seem to 'sense' awareness - it can't be smelt, felt, tasted, seen, heard. Therefore I can't locate it, I can only imagine or theorise. But its undeniable 'here'.... somehow. It's closer than close. In fact, everything seems to be happening in it.


Are "everything" and "awareness" two separate things?


Thoughts come in, doubting the above conclusion.... e.g. what if ALL of the above is just another 'belief' that its not located anywhere...what if when you die, you really disappear. Then those thoughts pass on.


What you see is not a belief. If you smell something, that smell is not a belief.
So, what's your experience here and now? Is there an "I" in (or as) the brain?
Actually observe and answer, please.


its a 'thought' about the future, a 'thought' about Monday morning, a 'feeling' about an imagined future. So i don't know what time is... I'm stuck on that one.


What makes you stuck?


I can't answer what time itself is. All I know, is that I can't touch, taste, hear, feel or see time. I can only think about it. Yes, objects are perceived apparently travelling distances, and ageing with time....but if I keep focused on 'time' itself.... it seems to disappear.


Is time real, or rather fictional?
What is the reality of it?

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Re: Seen through

Postby Guitarist » Sun May 13, 2018 11:38 pm

Are "everything" and "awareness" two separate things?
This is a great question that absolutely stopped me in my tracks. I have toyed with this question off and on over the past few months.

Here is where I am at with it. First, I will tell you what I think 'everything' is. I used to think that 'everything' was the entire Universe - as in the entire geography - whether or not "I' was aware of it. A recent guide challenged this notion in me, and pointed out the possibility that things outside of my awareness may not actually exist. I can appreciate that things outside my awareness have no reality "for me" (as I am not directly aware of them), but its harder to blankly acknowledge that they don't exist for others. For example: I can ignore the news for a week, but does that mean that a war isn't raging in another country, causing pain for others...

Therefore, I am confused about what 'everything' is. But for the purpose of your question, I am going to presume that 'everything' is relative to me only. The 'non-imagined' stuff only. Being ALL that I am aware of here and now, all that I am sensing - whether it be sight, sound, touch etc. For me, that means that 'everything' consists of the 'geography' or physical environment that I am aware of (apparently externally to my body/mind) and also the thoughts, feelings and sensations that I am aware of (apparently internally to my body/mind).

You asked whether everything and awareness are two separate things. Although I have beliefs and theories springing up incessantly arguing.... the answer is NO when I base it on my direct experience. Without the "me" here (which I know as my personal awareness or body/mind, it is hard to see how the 'geography' and 'thoughts, feelings, sensations' could be here. As there would be nothing watching. Just like when I am asleep at night. The "geography" and "me" seems to be exchanged for a different set. Though I return to the "awake-state me" consistently - whereas the "asleep-state me" is different every night.

So while I can't see how they are separate, I get confused when another person seems to have a personal awareness or body/mind that interacts with my own. They seem completely independent of me. That is why I still ultimately believe that there are separate beings with separate awarenesses walking around in a common geography.
What you see is not a belief. If you smell something, that smell is not a belief.
So, what's your experience here and now? Is there an "I" in (or as) the brain?
Actually observe and answer, please.
Wow. The statement 'what you see is not a belief" cleared a lot of stuff up for me. I am glad you added "if you smell something that smell is not a belief" as this means it covers all sense perceptions.

For some reason, pondering this question opened up the flood gates. I have had a very painful last two hours with a lot of emotion that wasn't released (and never is). I have got it together now, and can respond properly without going on and on about pain and sadness and injustice from younger years. In fact, I wrote out a lot of stuff and deleted it, as I want to keep to your question.

My experience here and now, is that there is an apparent external geography consisting of people, computers, windows, desks. There are sights, sounds and noises. My experience is that there is also an 'internal' environment consisting of a personalised awareness that is based in the body. I can turn my head and see things from a different angle. I can decide to strike up a conversation and then a series of events in the external geography will follow. There is not an "I" in (or as the brain) if I look properly. I can not use my senses to find an "I" in the brain. In fact, the apparent external geography actually seems to confirm that "I" am here. I can do things that make the external environment respond - I could yell out at my desk here, and people would notice and a series of events would follow. This then makes me think that there is an "entity" here. IN fact, this is a bit of an insight for me - its only the external geography that seems to CONCUR that there is an "I" here.

Thanks heaps. Amazing at how much emotion is coming up.

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Re: Seen through

Postby Bananafish » Mon May 14, 2018 12:07 pm

You asked whether everything and awareness are two separate things. Although I have beliefs and theories springing up incessantly arguing.... the answer is NO when I base it on my direct experience.


Please tell me how you realized it.
How did you look, when you observed that everything and awareness are not separate?


I could yell out at my desk here, and people would notice and a series of events would follow.


Please utter any word now, and investigate who is saying that word.
Can you locate, or pinpoint the one that said it?

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Re: Seen through

Postby Guitarist » Tue May 15, 2018 2:28 am

Please tell me how you realized it.
How did you look, when you observed that everything and awareness are not separate?
I looked by using my senses - that's all I can do. I physically looked around at the geography, using my eyes, and considered whether I would be seeing anything if I wasn't there. I The answer was no. Unless I perceive it through my senses, its not there "for me". Same with hearing, touching - there's nothing to be experienced if I am not there to perceive it. But this is still relative to me. If the "I" that I am identified with (mind/body) is a part of 'everything', how can it realise it is awareness/everything. It still feels like awareness is located in my mind/body, and that I am a separate part of the whole, looking out at the whole.
Please utter any word now, and investigate who is saying that word.
Can you locate, or pinpoint the one that said it?
I uttered a word out loud. What seemed to happen was: 1) I had a thought to say a word, 2) I said the word out loud, 3) I felt a vibration in the body as I said the word, 4) i heard the word.

As for who is saying the word...this is where i get stuck time and time again. Trying to investigate the "I" seems impossible to an extent. You know what it feels like? It feels like I am "trying to see my own face". Or 'trying to see my eyes'. Therefore I don't know what to say or how to answer it. This is the whole reason I want guidance. I think I asked you in a previous post "how exactly do I investigate the I?". How? As using the senses is all that I seem to be able to do. How does one "really look". I am completely identified with being a localised separate self, so how is it possible to do anything but use the senses to look. All I can do is 'think, see, feel, hear, touch, taste'. I can also just 'be aware' without thoughts, but it is still as a separate 'localised' self, walking through a world - in space and time. Even when dreaming at night, I seem to be looking from a 'localised' point.

I am sorry - I don't know how to answer your question "can you locate or pinpoint the one that said it". I will try again now, and will detail what process I go through:

1. I turn my 'perception' inwards, trying not to think or theorise
2. This results in me 'feeling' my body from the inside out. I get a sense of "my body is here and alive"
3. I get a sense/feeling of 'being here' from a psychological sense - a recognition that I am 'aware'
4. When I try to 'locate or pinpoint the one that said it', it just feels like a dead end - the feeling of "I AM" is the only thing left - everything else would be a thought or theory.

So in summary, when I get to step 4, I feel like I am returned to step 3. It is not 'pinpointing' but my answer to the question would be: "No, I can't locate or pinpoint the one who said it, but i am undeniably HERE"

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Re: Seen through

Postby Bananafish » Thu May 17, 2018 10:57 am

Hi! Sorry for the late reply. I thought I posted a reply, but somehow it wasn’t sent properly ...


I physically looked around at the geography, using my eyes


Good.
And where was the “I” that was looking?
Did you find any?


and considered whether I would be seeing anything if I wasn't there.


Not good. This part is unnecessary.


It still feels like awareness is located in my mind/body


What kind of feeling is it? Could you elaborate?


All I can do is 'think, see, feel, hear, touch, taste'.


Good.

Look for the thinker, seer, feeler, hearer, toucher, and the taster. Literally, look for it. Just like you look for a TV remote that has gone somewhere.


"No, I can't locate or pinpoint the one who said it, but i am undeniably HERE"


Tell me more about that feeling of being “here.”

Which one describes that perception more precisely, “being here”, or “I am here”?

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Re: Seen through

Postby Guitarist » Fri May 18, 2018 10:20 am

Hi! Sorry for the late reply. I thought I posted a reply, but somehow it wasn’t sent properly ...
Not a problem :) thanks for your response
Good.
And where was the “I” that was looking?
Did you find any?
So I looked around the geography. Just simply LOOKED. The "I" that was looking was sitting at a bus stop, looking out onto a road watching traffic go by. I can't say that I can find it apart from being able to look at my own body. The "I" was there, looking at the geography, from the bus stop. I looked down and saw my body sitting at the bus stop too. This sounds very simplistic, but it seems you are guiding me towards that.
Not good. This part is unnecessary.
Ok. I think I see why - its daydreaming, its going away from what is actually happening, back into theories/beliefs. Good insight. Reminded me of when you said 'when you smell something its not a belief'.
What kind of feeling is it? Could you elaborate?
Ah, the feeling of awareness being in my body. Upon really looking, it's not a feeling. Its an INTUITION, I guess its a response built up from learning that the 'world' is happening to me, and reacts to me. That intuition feels like a 'movement of energy'. A kind of 'self-reflection' with a slight amount of effort involved.
Look for the thinker, seer, feeler, hearer, toucher, and the taster. Literally, look for it. Just like you look for a TV remote that has gone somewhere.
The simplicity of this intrigued me. You are talking about looking at the surrounding geography again. Awesome. If I look for the thinker, seer, feeler, hearer, toucher and taster in the apparent geography, all I find is a body. Which I call "my" body, not "a" body, because its here every day in the waking state.
Tell me more about that feeling of being “here.”

Which one describes that perception more precisely, “being here”, or “I am here”?
I don't know that its a feeling. It's an experience. Of being 'here'. Undeniable EXPERIENCE. Awareness or "knowing" is here. I can't seem to feel into it any deeper than just actually feeling my body. Feeling sensations arise, feeling 'aliveness' in the body.

I can't find any difference between 'being here' and 'i am here'. Or even just 'I am'.

Thanks!

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Re: Seen through

Postby Bananafish » Fri May 18, 2018 11:29 am

I looked down and saw my body sitting at the bus stop too.


What makes that body yours?
What makes you call it “body?”


That intuition feels like a 'movement of energy'.


Please elaborate on how you perceive this “movement.”


“my" body, not "a" body, because its here every day in the waking state.


Is that true?
Can you see your own face now?


I can't seem to feel into it any deeper than just actually feeling my body. Feeling sensations arise, feeling 'aliveness' in the body.


Is there anything deep or shallow, except in imagination?
Is it something more than bodily sensation?

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Re: Seen through

Postby Guitarist » Fri May 18, 2018 12:40 pm

What makes that body yours?
What makes you call it “body?”
I can move my body and I can sense things through the body. I am the sentient of this body, which makes it mine. Other people can't sense things through my body. I have private thoughts and feelings that others can't experience. Same goes for them. I can not read their mind or know what they are really experiencing.

I have learnt to call it body. It is only a way of communicating.
Please elaborate on how you perceive this “movement.”
The 'movement' is perceived as thought-energy. Like a modulation of energy.
Is that true?
Can you see your own face now?
No.
Is there anything deep or shallow, except in imagination?
Is it something more than bodily sensation?
No, it is in imagination. Good point.

Crikey - good question - to be honest, its hard to say its anything other than a bodily sensation if I look for my sense of awareness, in actuality. The rest is imagination; like a daydream of a past and future. Yes, I am undeniably here, and yes I can feel my body when I look, but yes, that feeling is a 'sensation'. The 'aliveness' is a slight buzzing or slight warmth. Yes - its a sensation. Again, it is only more than that, if I allow daydreams to take over.

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Re: Seen through

Postby Bananafish » Sat May 19, 2018 2:36 pm

I can move my body and I can sense things through the body.


Please raise one of your arms. Where is the "I" that raised the arm?
Feel the warmth of that arm. Where is the "I" that's sensing it?

What do you mean by "through the body"? Could you describe the process?



The 'movement' is perceived as thought-energy. Like a modulation of energy.


Please observe it and write further.

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Re: Seen through

Postby Guitarist » Mon May 21, 2018 1:13 am

Please raise one of your arms. Where is the "I" that raised the arm?
Feel the warmth of that arm. Where is the "I" that's sensing it?

What do you mean by "through the body"? Could you describe the process?
I raised my arm. The "I" that raised my arm is HERE and NOW. Although it still appears that time is progressing, the HERE-NOW-NESS is always here too. In fact, it is quite hard to see a difference between the "I" and the "here-now-ness". You say 'the arm' but I say 'my arm'. I can't raise someone else's arm, by having a thought to raise it and carrying through with it. Therefore the "I" that raised my arm seems to be in my body. Same with the "I" sensing the warmth. It really feels like it is in my head/brain. I can't raise someone's else's arm or feel the warmth in their arm, unless its through touch.
What do you mean by "through the body"? Could you describe the process?
I don't think I can simplify this further. I seem to have a 'volition' within my body. I seem to be the sentient of the body. I am able to sense things through the body, or more accurately "because I have a body". I can not see how I could smell, taste, touch, see etc without a body. Although I am able to 'sense' things when dreaming at night. SO maybe it is more accurate to say that I can sense through the 'MIND'.

The process is first becoming aware of an object, feeling, sensation and then experiencing it. I have to be aware of it to experience it. I don't know how to describe seeing, hearing, touching, feeling though - can't seem to simplify the process further.
Please observe it and write further.
Ok, I observed the 'thought-energy' movement.... or modulation of energy. Its very hard to describe what 'energy' is, apart from saying that it is a 'movement' or 'expression' of some sort. And it comes with an assumption that I am in my body. It is not a state of 'total rest', its 'cognition' or 'awareness'. It appears to be 'something' rather than 'nothing'. But I can't make it 'tangible' to the senses.

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Re: Seen through

Postby Bananafish » Tue May 22, 2018 6:43 am

I see lots of logical reasoning happening, but that’s
not needed here. Careful when you write something like “A is B, and therefore it’s C.”. Reality is just A. It doesn’t need B and C. Well, it doesn’t even need A.


I can't raise someone else's arm, by having a thought to raise it and carrying through with it.


Can you raise your arm just by thinking “I’m gonna raise this arm”? Please try that.


SO maybe it is more accurate to say that I can sense through the 'MIND'.


Oh, I see lots of “seems” and “maybe” here.
Please refrain from making guesses without actually verifying it yourself. And observe carefully, don’t give up till you see what’s really going on ...


Again, please describe the process of “I” sensing things through what you call MIND. Don’t go to well-made theories. Observe and describe. Especially, tell me what MIND is.


Ok, I observed the 'thought-energy' movement.... or modulation of energy. Its very hard to describe what 'energy' is, apart from saying that it is a 'movement' or 'expression' of some sort.


Good. Now, let’s go into that “some sort” thing.
Please keep observing it and report what you found out.

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Re: Seen through

Postby Guitarist » Wed May 23, 2018 12:33 am

I see lots of logical reasoning happening, but that’s
not needed here. Careful when you write something like “A is B, and therefore it’s C.”. Reality is just A. It doesn’t need B and C. Well, it doesn’t even need A.
Ok, yes there is a lot of logical reasoning. I hope to see one day what you mean by 'it doesn't even need A'. And thank you for clarifying that we are talking about reality.
Can you raise your arm just by thinking “I’m gonna raise this arm”? Please try that.
I tried, and I can't. The body did not respond.
Oh, I see lots of “seems” and “maybe” here.
Please refrain from making guesses without actually verifying it yourself. And observe carefully, don’t give up till you see what’s really going on ...

Again, please describe the process of “I” sensing things through what you call MIND. Don’t go to well-made theories. Observe and describe. Especially, tell me what MIND is.
I will not be giving up. I continue to burn, day and night. All through the night I wake up with a desire to see the truth.

My direct observations of the "I" sensing things through what I call mind... I am sitting at a table right now, typing. I look up from the table and see trees outside. I can hear sounds arising, a plane overhead, peoples voices. I can feel apprehension in my chest and stomach. I can feel breathing happening. I can hear typing. There's no process. It's happening without effort from the "I". Breathing is happening automatically. Maybe even the typing is happening automatically. Experience is just happening by itself, like something is powering it along. Something keeps making things happen. A constant flow of perceptions. I can not do anything to stop it. I have no idea what is about to arise next. These are not theories, these are direct observations of what is. There is apparent movement (the 'world') happening. A truck just came past. Things just keep happening, 'outside' of me, and 'inside' of me. No time seems to pass between a sound happening and me hearing it. It's instantaneous. No time seems to pass between the breathing happening and me feeling it. No time seems to pass between things happening and me perceiving it. I have to 'think' about time and distance. I feel like I want to 'dissolve' into the geography. Lose the centre. I want rest. I can't find any difference between perceiving in the waking state, and perceiving in the dream state.

You asked me to tell you 'what is mind'. My answer is that it only comes into existence when I think about it. I am assuming it is needed to 'perceive'. I am assuming that I need to be 'alive' to perceive.
Good. Now, let’s go into that “some sort” thing.
Please keep observing it and report what you found out.
The thought/energy movement.... I am directly observing it. All I can report, is that its a feeling of 'aliveness' or 'being'. Again, just a feeling of "i am". It's here when I look for it. But when I don't look for it, or if I don't focus my attention on it, its not noticed. I become more aware of the surrounding geography, or what is 'outside of me'. It's like it springs into existence when I focus on it. Maybe I am 'conjuring' it up into existence. When I keep observing, it feels like a conditioned pattern - like a learned reflex. A 'self-consciousness' that is learned, through conditioning. Drilling down further, i would say just a REFLEX - it just seems to keep coming up - a movement of energy that keeps repeating. I observe a feeling of 'self-consciousness' that turns into a feeling of 'apprehension' which turns into thoughts of fearing future circumstances and further trudgery.

Thank you for your continued patience. I will not be giving up.

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Re: Seen through

Postby Bananafish » Wed May 23, 2018 10:40 am

I hope to see one day what you mean by 'it doesn't even need A'.


You’re hopeless, then. :). There’s no “one day”.
You have to see it now, without any hope for something to come later. That hope brings expectations, which hinder the clear view of what is here and now. Be hopeless, be more desperate, please.


I tried, and I can't. The body did not respond.


Is there anything that’s really lifting the arm?
Can the lifter of the arm directly experienced?


There is apparent movement (the 'world') happening.


And what makes it happen, including your own actions?


You asked me to tell you 'what is mind'. My answer is that it only comes into existence when I think about it.


Ok, so really tell me what mind is. You just answered when it appears, but not what it is. What exactly is it?


All I can report, is that its a feeling of 'aliveness' or 'being'.


Keep observing. How is it felt? What is it that’s perceiving it? Where is it felt?


Thanks for your honesty and sincerety. You’re doing a great job. :). Keep up the good work!

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Re: Seen through

Postby Guitarist » Mon May 28, 2018 2:31 am

Hi again :) my delay was due to wanting to consider the questions more deeply. I have remained very focused. Plus life has been busy, which caused me some annoyance as I seem to get 'swept away' into the all the movement and activity. Tell you what, I have been really enjoying the guitar lately too.
You’re hopeless, then. :). There’s no “one day”.
You have to see it now, without any hope for something to come later. That hope brings expectations, which hinder the clear view of what is here and now. Be hopeless, be more desperate, please.
This is like a paradox to me. However I understand what you are saying - the imagined future obstructs the here and now. Kind of like staring at map instead of noticing the surroundings. Your reply made me focus more on what is unfolding here and now. That is kind of what you said in the first line that you wrote to me, which was along the lines of "what others say is not so much important as what you see".
Is there anything that’s really lifting the arm?
Can the lifter of the arm directly experienced?
Something must be lifting the arm. If its not me, then maybe it is the same thing that is making the whole world happen. Maybe it is the same thing that is making everything manifest.

I can't directly experience the lifter of the arm, and I can't seem to directly experience what is making the world happen. All I can find is a thought (through imagination) that there must be something lifting the arm. I've tried to directly experience the "I" that seems to be here, but its the one thing that can't be experienced through the senses. Yet I appear to be looking 'from it'. Experiencing 'from it'.
And what makes it happen, including your own actions?
I have no idea what makes the world happen. Or my own actions. This is what I want answered. This is what I have wanted answered for the past 30+ years. If I sit here now at my desk, I see a world happening. I can see that my own actions are also happening within it, though. Whenever I look, the world is here.
Ok, so really tell me what mind is. You just answered when it appears, but not what it is. What exactly is it?
Again, I have no idea. I can tell you all about how it appears to work and that it seems to be needed to navigate the world, but I can't answer what it is. Especially without going into theories and thoughts.
Keep observing. How is it felt? What is it that’s perceiving it? Where is it felt?
I have been observing the feeling of aliveness, the feeling of 'being', or more simply 'me', almost non-stop for hours and days. I don't understand how to go deeper with it. Even if I am not looking for an 'answer', nothing changes. It is just like a pure 'knowingness' that's always here and now.

How is it felt? Not through the senses. It is more like an intuition. When I try to go deeper into how it is felt, it just feels like a dead end. There's no 'deeper'.

What is it that is perceiving it? Again, this feels like the same question in another form - being the question that I can't answer. It just IS, and its looking, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, experiencing. I can't see it, I can only see from it. However, this is what I want answered, if that is possible.

Where is it felt? That's a good one - I can't find an answer to that. Apart from 'everywhere'. In my totality of experience.

I apologise if I am rehashing the same answers. I just can't seem to go deeper, though I find the 'observing' relaxing and I wish I could do it all day every day at this point.

Thanks for your honesty and sincerety. You’re doing a great job. :). Keep up the good work!
Thanks - told you I would be a good grasshopper :)

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Re: Seen through

Postby Bananafish » Mon May 28, 2018 11:48 am

Yet I appear to be looking 'from it'. Experiencing 'from it'.


Please describe that experience in more details, and observe what makes you
feel so.


I have no idea what makes the world happen. Or my own actions. This is what I want answered. This is what I have wanted answered for the past 30+ years. If I sit here now at my desk, I see a world happening. I can see that my own actions are also happening within it, though. Whenever I look, the world is here.


Isn't what you wrote already the answer?
What do you expect?


I can't answer what it is. Especially without going into theories and thoughts.


Great! Can you stop there? Is there such thing as mind, if you don't go into theories and thoughts?


It just IS, and its looking, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, experiencing.


Fabulous! is there anything other than that? Anything special, anything deeper?


I can't see it, I can only see from it.


What is "seeing from it"?


Where is it felt? That's a good one - I can't find an answer to that. Apart from 'everywhere'. In my totality of experience.


:)


I just can't seem to go deeper, though I find the 'observing' relaxing and I wish I could do it all day every day at this point.



Why do you try to go deeper?
At least I didn't ask you to do it.


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