Seen through

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Bananafish
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Re: Seen through

Postby Bananafish » Sun May 13, 2018 12:44 pm

If I drop all theories, I can't seem to 'sense' awareness - it can't be smelt, felt, tasted, seen, heard. Therefore I can't locate it, I can only imagine or theorise. But its undeniable 'here'.... somehow. It's closer than close. In fact, everything seems to be happening in it.


Are "everything" and "awareness" two separate things?


Thoughts come in, doubting the above conclusion.... e.g. what if ALL of the above is just another 'belief' that its not located anywhere...what if when you die, you really disappear. Then those thoughts pass on.


What you see is not a belief. If you smell something, that smell is not a belief.
So, what's your experience here and now? Is there an "I" in (or as) the brain?
Actually observe and answer, please.


its a 'thought' about the future, a 'thought' about Monday morning, a 'feeling' about an imagined future. So i don't know what time is... I'm stuck on that one.


What makes you stuck?


I can't answer what time itself is. All I know, is that I can't touch, taste, hear, feel or see time. I can only think about it. Yes, objects are perceived apparently travelling distances, and ageing with time....but if I keep focused on 'time' itself.... it seems to disappear.


Is time real, or rather fictional?
What is the reality of it?

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Re: Seen through

Postby Guitarist » Sun May 13, 2018 11:38 pm

Are "everything" and "awareness" two separate things?
This is a great question that absolutely stopped me in my tracks. I have toyed with this question off and on over the past few months.

Here is where I am at with it. First, I will tell you what I think 'everything' is. I used to think that 'everything' was the entire Universe - as in the entire geography - whether or not "I' was aware of it. A recent guide challenged this notion in me, and pointed out the possibility that things outside of my awareness may not actually exist. I can appreciate that things outside my awareness have no reality "for me" (as I am not directly aware of them), but its harder to blankly acknowledge that they don't exist for others. For example: I can ignore the news for a week, but does that mean that a war isn't raging in another country, causing pain for others...

Therefore, I am confused about what 'everything' is. But for the purpose of your question, I am going to presume that 'everything' is relative to me only. The 'non-imagined' stuff only. Being ALL that I am aware of here and now, all that I am sensing - whether it be sight, sound, touch etc. For me, that means that 'everything' consists of the 'geography' or physical environment that I am aware of (apparently externally to my body/mind) and also the thoughts, feelings and sensations that I am aware of (apparently internally to my body/mind).

You asked whether everything and awareness are two separate things. Although I have beliefs and theories springing up incessantly arguing.... the answer is NO when I base it on my direct experience. Without the "me" here (which I know as my personal awareness or body/mind, it is hard to see how the 'geography' and 'thoughts, feelings, sensations' could be here. As there would be nothing watching. Just like when I am asleep at night. The "geography" and "me" seems to be exchanged for a different set. Though I return to the "awake-state me" consistently - whereas the "asleep-state me" is different every night.

So while I can't see how they are separate, I get confused when another person seems to have a personal awareness or body/mind that interacts with my own. They seem completely independent of me. That is why I still ultimately believe that there are separate beings with separate awarenesses walking around in a common geography.
What you see is not a belief. If you smell something, that smell is not a belief.
So, what's your experience here and now? Is there an "I" in (or as) the brain?
Actually observe and answer, please.
Wow. The statement 'what you see is not a belief" cleared a lot of stuff up for me. I am glad you added "if you smell something that smell is not a belief" as this means it covers all sense perceptions.

For some reason, pondering this question opened up the flood gates. I have had a very painful last two hours with a lot of emotion that wasn't released (and never is). I have got it together now, and can respond properly without going on and on about pain and sadness and injustice from younger years. In fact, I wrote out a lot of stuff and deleted it, as I want to keep to your question.

My experience here and now, is that there is an apparent external geography consisting of people, computers, windows, desks. There are sights, sounds and noises. My experience is that there is also an 'internal' environment consisting of a personalised awareness that is based in the body. I can turn my head and see things from a different angle. I can decide to strike up a conversation and then a series of events in the external geography will follow. There is not an "I" in (or as the brain) if I look properly. I can not use my senses to find an "I" in the brain. In fact, the apparent external geography actually seems to confirm that "I" am here. I can do things that make the external environment respond - I could yell out at my desk here, and people would notice and a series of events would follow. This then makes me think that there is an "entity" here. IN fact, this is a bit of an insight for me - its only the external geography that seems to CONCUR that there is an "I" here.

Thanks heaps. Amazing at how much emotion is coming up.

Regards

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Bananafish
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Re: Seen through

Postby Bananafish » Mon May 14, 2018 12:07 pm

You asked whether everything and awareness are two separate things. Although I have beliefs and theories springing up incessantly arguing.... the answer is NO when I base it on my direct experience.


Please tell me how you realized it.
How did you look, when you observed that everything and awareness are not separate?


I could yell out at my desk here, and people would notice and a series of events would follow.


Please utter any word now, and investigate who is saying that word.
Can you locate, or pinpoint the one that said it?

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Re: Seen through

Postby Guitarist » Tue May 15, 2018 2:28 am

Please tell me how you realized it.
How did you look, when you observed that everything and awareness are not separate?
I looked by using my senses - that's all I can do. I physically looked around at the geography, using my eyes, and considered whether I would be seeing anything if I wasn't there. I The answer was no. Unless I perceive it through my senses, its not there "for me". Same with hearing, touching - there's nothing to be experienced if I am not there to perceive it. But this is still relative to me. If the "I" that I am identified with (mind/body) is a part of 'everything', how can it realise it is awareness/everything. It still feels like awareness is located in my mind/body, and that I am a separate part of the whole, looking out at the whole.
Please utter any word now, and investigate who is saying that word.
Can you locate, or pinpoint the one that said it?
I uttered a word out loud. What seemed to happen was: 1) I had a thought to say a word, 2) I said the word out loud, 3) I felt a vibration in the body as I said the word, 4) i heard the word.

As for who is saying the word...this is where i get stuck time and time again. Trying to investigate the "I" seems impossible to an extent. You know what it feels like? It feels like I am "trying to see my own face". Or 'trying to see my eyes'. Therefore I don't know what to say or how to answer it. This is the whole reason I want guidance. I think I asked you in a previous post "how exactly do I investigate the I?". How? As using the senses is all that I seem to be able to do. How does one "really look". I am completely identified with being a localised separate self, so how is it possible to do anything but use the senses to look. All I can do is 'think, see, feel, hear, touch, taste'. I can also just 'be aware' without thoughts, but it is still as a separate 'localised' self, walking through a world - in space and time. Even when dreaming at night, I seem to be looking from a 'localised' point.

I am sorry - I don't know how to answer your question "can you locate or pinpoint the one that said it". I will try again now, and will detail what process I go through:

1. I turn my 'perception' inwards, trying not to think or theorise
2. This results in me 'feeling' my body from the inside out. I get a sense of "my body is here and alive"
3. I get a sense/feeling of 'being here' from a psychological sense - a recognition that I am 'aware'
4. When I try to 'locate or pinpoint the one that said it', it just feels like a dead end - the feeling of "I AM" is the only thing left - everything else would be a thought or theory.

So in summary, when I get to step 4, I feel like I am returned to step 3. It is not 'pinpointing' but my answer to the question would be: "No, I can't locate or pinpoint the one who said it, but i am undeniably HERE"

Regards

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Re: Seen through

Postby Bananafish » Thu May 17, 2018 10:57 am

Hi! Sorry for the late reply. I thought I posted a reply, but somehow it wasn’t sent properly ...


I physically looked around at the geography, using my eyes


Good.
And where was the “I” that was looking?
Did you find any?


and considered whether I would be seeing anything if I wasn't there.


Not good. This part is unnecessary.


It still feels like awareness is located in my mind/body


What kind of feeling is it? Could you elaborate?


All I can do is 'think, see, feel, hear, touch, taste'.


Good.

Look for the thinker, seer, feeler, hearer, toucher, and the taster. Literally, look for it. Just like you look for a TV remote that has gone somewhere.


"No, I can't locate or pinpoint the one who said it, but i am undeniably HERE"


Tell me more about that feeling of being “here.”

Which one describes that perception more precisely, “being here”, or “I am here”?

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Re: Seen through

Postby Guitarist » Fri May 18, 2018 10:20 am

Hi! Sorry for the late reply. I thought I posted a reply, but somehow it wasn’t sent properly ...
Not a problem :) thanks for your response
Good.
And where was the “I” that was looking?
Did you find any?
So I looked around the geography. Just simply LOOKED. The "I" that was looking was sitting at a bus stop, looking out onto a road watching traffic go by. I can't say that I can find it apart from being able to look at my own body. The "I" was there, looking at the geography, from the bus stop. I looked down and saw my body sitting at the bus stop too. This sounds very simplistic, but it seems you are guiding me towards that.
Not good. This part is unnecessary.
Ok. I think I see why - its daydreaming, its going away from what is actually happening, back into theories/beliefs. Good insight. Reminded me of when you said 'when you smell something its not a belief'.
What kind of feeling is it? Could you elaborate?
Ah, the feeling of awareness being in my body. Upon really looking, it's not a feeling. Its an INTUITION, I guess its a response built up from learning that the 'world' is happening to me, and reacts to me. That intuition feels like a 'movement of energy'. A kind of 'self-reflection' with a slight amount of effort involved.
Look for the thinker, seer, feeler, hearer, toucher, and the taster. Literally, look for it. Just like you look for a TV remote that has gone somewhere.
The simplicity of this intrigued me. You are talking about looking at the surrounding geography again. Awesome. If I look for the thinker, seer, feeler, hearer, toucher and taster in the apparent geography, all I find is a body. Which I call "my" body, not "a" body, because its here every day in the waking state.
Tell me more about that feeling of being “here.”

Which one describes that perception more precisely, “being here”, or “I am here”?
I don't know that its a feeling. It's an experience. Of being 'here'. Undeniable EXPERIENCE. Awareness or "knowing" is here. I can't seem to feel into it any deeper than just actually feeling my body. Feeling sensations arise, feeling 'aliveness' in the body.

I can't find any difference between 'being here' and 'i am here'. Or even just 'I am'.

Thanks!

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Re: Seen through

Postby Bananafish » Fri May 18, 2018 11:29 am

I looked down and saw my body sitting at the bus stop too.


What makes that body yours?
What makes you call it “body?”


That intuition feels like a 'movement of energy'.


Please elaborate on how you perceive this “movement.”


“my" body, not "a" body, because its here every day in the waking state.


Is that true?
Can you see your own face now?


I can't seem to feel into it any deeper than just actually feeling my body. Feeling sensations arise, feeling 'aliveness' in the body.


Is there anything deep or shallow, except in imagination?
Is it something more than bodily sensation?

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Re: Seen through

Postby Guitarist » Fri May 18, 2018 12:40 pm

What makes that body yours?
What makes you call it “body?”
I can move my body and I can sense things through the body. I am the sentient of this body, which makes it mine. Other people can't sense things through my body. I have private thoughts and feelings that others can't experience. Same goes for them. I can not read their mind or know what they are really experiencing.

I have learnt to call it body. It is only a way of communicating.
Please elaborate on how you perceive this “movement.”
The 'movement' is perceived as thought-energy. Like a modulation of energy.
Is that true?
Can you see your own face now?
No.
Is there anything deep or shallow, except in imagination?
Is it something more than bodily sensation?
No, it is in imagination. Good point.

Crikey - good question - to be honest, its hard to say its anything other than a bodily sensation if I look for my sense of awareness, in actuality. The rest is imagination; like a daydream of a past and future. Yes, I am undeniably here, and yes I can feel my body when I look, but yes, that feeling is a 'sensation'. The 'aliveness' is a slight buzzing or slight warmth. Yes - its a sensation. Again, it is only more than that, if I allow daydreams to take over.

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Re: Seen through

Postby Bananafish » Sat May 19, 2018 2:36 pm

I can move my body and I can sense things through the body.


Please raise one of your arms. Where is the "I" that raised the arm?
Feel the warmth of that arm. Where is the "I" that's sensing it?

What do you mean by "through the body"? Could you describe the process?



The 'movement' is perceived as thought-energy. Like a modulation of energy.


Please observe it and write further.


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