no expectations

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Jadzia
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Re: no expectations

Postby Jadzia » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:25 am

Dear Rosey,

Here our path together stops. I am convinnced that at this point another guide with a different style of guiding will be better and I am glad that Matthew will go on with you. He'll write soon.
I hope it is ok for you.

It was beautiful to walk with you for some time.

Love,
Jadzia

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Matthew
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Re: no expectations

Postby Matthew » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:36 am

Hello there!

Could you please describe, what is the status right now when it comes to the inquiry into self/noself me/no me?
How is "I" experienced right now?
All will arrive.

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rosey
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Re: no expectations

Postby rosey » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:18 pm

Hi Matthew
How is "I" experienced right now?
As a mental conviction that there is a separate self here. A sense of being here but cut off, apart.

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Matthew
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Re: no expectations

Postby Matthew » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:29 pm

That's right. It's just a conviction. A false assumption. An innocent error. Nothing more.

If I would convince you, that you are the Queen for long enough and good enough, then you would maybe eventually believe it. But this wouldn't mean, that it is true. It wouldn't mean, that you are actually the Queen.
It would just mean that there are two thoughts present:
1. "I am the Queen"
2. "and this is true".


What do we have here?
What we have here is thoughts about "there is a self". "I have a self". "There is an identity". "I own this identity". "I am this identity".
But also that is just a conviction, empty thoughts floating around followed by a subtle thought "and this is true".

You see?


A sense of being here but cut off, apart.
What exactly is cut off, apart?
Apart from what?
All will arrive.

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rosey
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Re: no expectations

Postby rosey » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:52 pm

that is just a conviction, empty thoughts floating around followed by a subtle thought "and this is true".
You see?
I see that I am saying those things, 'I am/have a self and this is true.'
'What exactly is cut off, apart?
I am. This sense/thought of self that that thought says is true. Thought also says that it's not a thought.
Apart from what?
The short answer is everything. The rest of life. Other things, animate and inanimate. The information coming through the senses, what is heard, seen etc. Apart from what is smelled. I can see that there is no separation there. But with the other senses there is an invisible wall a division.

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Matthew
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Re: no expectations

Postby Matthew » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:48 am

This sense/thought of self that that thought says is true. Thought also says that it's not a thought.
Which can be checked, whether this is true or not!
What else could it be?

When looking at the entire spectrum of present experience.
Can it be described with the terms

the seen
the heard
the (bodily) sensed
the smelled
the tasted
and (observed) thought

?

Can you find something else, more or beyond those terms?
Wouldn't anything "else", "more" or "beyond" those terms in any case be just a thought about such a thing?

If there is anything more, please describe what it is and how it is experienced!
All will arrive.

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rosey
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Re: no expectations

Postby rosey » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:57 am

This sense/thought of self that that thought says is true. Thought also says that it's not a thought.
What else could it be?
It's an insistent thought. Which is currently believed but that's why I'm here. So there's an impression that there is really a separate me here and the thought that this is true.
Can it be described with the terms

the seen
the heard
the (bodily) sensed
the smelled
the tasted
and (observed) thought?
Yes
Can you find something else, more or beyond those terms?
The awareness of them.
If there is anything more, please describe what it is and how it is experienced!
I struggle with this because LU doesn't try to remove the self and once I saw that the self was everything. What I've just written is memory - thought. So it's included in the list that you gave of what is in present experience.

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rosey
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Re: no expectations

Postby rosey » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:13 am

Can you find something else, more or beyond those terms?
Wouldn't anything "else", "more" or "beyond" those terms in any case be just a thought about such a thing?
Preferences? Likes and Dislikes, maybe those are just thought.

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Matthew
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Re: no expectations

Postby Matthew » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:33 am

Can you find something else, more or beyond those terms?
Preferences? Likes and Dislikes, maybe those are just thought.
Bring up a thought about yesterday. Look at it for some moments. See how it is experienced.
Then bring up a "dislike". Also look at it for some moments. See how it is experienced.

Can you see that a thought about yesterday and a thought about dislike is made of the exact same substance thought?


memory - thought. So it's included in the list that you gave of what is in present experience.
Of course, thought itself is also present experience.
It is here now. It can be observed.
What is NOT present experience, however, is the content of thought.
Thought tells a story about yesterday, about tomorrow, about other places...
All this content is not present experience.

Another example, please participate.
Bring up a thought about a candle. An image of a candle.
The thought "candle" is present experience. It is right there. It can be observed.
What is NOT present experience, however, is THE CANDLE.
It is just a fantasy. An illusory image. It cannot brighten the room.

You see?
All will arrive.

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rosey
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Re: no expectations

Postby rosey » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:26 pm

Can it be described with the terms?
How would you classify Happiness, sadness, fear, anger etc.? Are they thought plus bodily sensed?
What is NOT present experience, however, is THE CANDLE.
It is just a fantasy. An illusory image. It cannot brighten the room.
You see?
Yes I see that.
Can you see that a thought about yesterday and a thought about dislike is made of the exact same substance thought?
Yes.

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Matthew
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Re: no expectations

Postby Matthew » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:46 am

How would you classify Happiness, sadness, fear, anger etc.? Are they thought plus bodily sensed?
This can be thoroughly investigated!
Does "happiness" exist apart from thought about it?
Does "sadness" exist outside of a thought story?


Does the bodily sensed itself ever tell anything about "fear", "anger" and the like?



Put aside 10 minutes and sit with your eyes closed, and think of a thought/story that brings up a sensation in the body. Then LOOK very very carefully with your eyes still closed to see if you can find/see an actual link between the thought and the sensation. If the sensation starts to disappear, then bring the story to mind again and keep on looking.

Do this exercise at least 3-4 times throughout your day, making sure you are looking very carefully. Can you find an actual link between the thought/story and the sensation in the body?
All will arrive.

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rosey
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Re: no expectations

Postby rosey » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:51 pm

Put aside 10 minutes and sit with your eyes closed
Sitting with eyes closed doesn't work for me because my attention is taken by a constant physical discomfort which becomes more noticeable when I do that. So I've been trying today to notice sensation accompanying thought stories without sitting and closing my eyes.
Does the bodily sensed itself ever tell anything about "fear", "anger" and the like?
I notice that physical sensations know nothing of sadness or happiness etc.
I noticed that a sharp pain in my ear and the thought saying what it was were two completely different experiences. No link.
Does "happiness" exist apart from thought about it? Does "sadness" exist outside of a thought story?
No. This is something that I would like to continue investigating though because there's a lingering belief that sensations and thoughts are linked.

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Matthew
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Re: no expectations

Postby Matthew » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:09 am

The following will introduce our further looking at sensation and thought.
It is the most precious, joyful and simple way of looking at things.
It may be repeated at any time. For investigation or simply for relaxation and enjoyment.




Find a quiet place and a quiet moment.
Sit or lay down and relax. Relax.
Can you attend to sensation exclusively?
Not minding thought babbling about this and that. Not minding thought giving "meaning" to sensation?

(Non-Verbal) Thought might tell that "I am lying" here or "My body is lying here" or "A body is lying here".
But could this be known from pure sensation?

(Non-Verbal) Thought might give a sense of there being "soft pressure against the back".
But does raw sensation tell anything about "soft", "pressure" or "back"?

Upon having arrived there, please pose the following questions.

While ONLY attending to sensation.

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a specific shape, size or weight?
How many toes are there?
All will arrive.

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rosey
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Re: no expectations

Postby rosey » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:52 pm

Thought might tell that "I am lying" here or "My body is lying here" or "A body is lying here".
But could this be known from pure sensation?
No
does raw sensation tell anything about "soft", "pressure" or "back"?
No the words are describing something that can't be described.
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a specific shape, size or weight?
How many toes are there?
No these things don't exist. I can see thought giving labels to the sensations such as - that's tension in the back.
This is thought giving meaning to sensation. But are happiness, sadness and anger, fear etc like that? Are those terms describing body sensations? I can see that they don't exist without a thought story.

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Matthew
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Re: no expectations

Postby Matthew » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:29 am

But are happiness, sadness and anger, fear etc like that? Are those terms describing body sensations? I can see that they don't exist without a thought story.
Please answer this question yourself.
Go in there again.
When there is happiness, have a look: Where does happiness reside?
Can it be found amongst sensation?
Does sensation itself know or tell anything about happiness?

Sadness, anger, fear...
Do they consist of anything else than of empty thought stories?
All will arrive.


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