Looking For Guidance

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gondwana
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby gondwana » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:01 pm

I must apologise, for some reason I did not see a notification you had replied! Sorry for the delay.
Several times when I was talking to someone, I would completely forget that I was there!
But I felt like I was disappearing.
Has this happened to you? What does it mean?
I don’t think it has. But these kind of “experiences” tend to be different for everyone, so it’s not surprising.

Probably, it is some internal “acting out” of the fact that the belief in the illusion of self is finally beginning to crumble.

Some would call this type of thing “candy” that just comes along with the process. Fun, but not super important in the end.
No, based on these ideas you gave me I really don't see any separation. This is very interesting! So when a finger hits a keyboard, it's molecules moving and a sensation accompanying it plus thought labeling it all. I understand the ideas, and they do make me perceive the world a little differently, but unfortunately there are no big shifts happening. It's all very useful though! A part of "the process".
Good. So there was some seeing that separation is not entirely all it seems.

We don’t normally give a “physics” type explanation but I thought it might help to show that even physics does not disagree here that there is NO separation at all. It is all one giant system.

As you said above re: movement, sensation, plus thought - that is exactly right. That is all there is. Well in fact, only the experience of these things is all there is.

Objects, like “me” and “finger” and “keyboard” are simply arbitrary boundaries (concepts, thought) we have made up for convenience. They do not have any external objective reality of their own.

Of course, to finally get to a proper nondual perspective, we would even have to say that “molecules” are just a concept as well, they aren’t really what they appear either. But we need not go that far here.

So don’t dwell on the details too much. My intention was just to point out that apparent “separation” of “objects” is not at all what it seems. We can revisit this again later if necessary.

Let’s take stock and review at this point. Where does a belief in the “self” still exist?
Where are “you” still holding on?
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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gondwana
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby gondwana » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:20 pm

Let’s take stock and review at this point. Where does a belief in the “self” still exist?
Where are “you” still holding on?
Hi Vera,
How did you get on with my question (above)?
Tim
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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PepperAlmond
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby PepperAlmond » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:18 am

Where does a belief in the “self” still exist?
Where are “you” still holding on?
Sorry it took me a while to answer. I got confused about the question.

There definitely still is some belief about the self, but I’m not sure where it is. Because I also have some sense of oneness - more than before.

I see that my inner and outer worlds are actually inseparably connected. Sometimes I see them as one. I am less and less capable of perceiving myself as separate from other people and animals.

It’s like I still do believe in the self, but the belief has changed. The “self” is not what it was before. It’s more fluid and the boundaries aren’t as strict. Sometimes it disappears. I can clearly see how it’s in thoughts and outside thoughts it feels completely different.

I’m able to quite freely question my beliefs and their “rightness”.

So basically the self is still there but it feels more flexible and fluid and sometimes it encompasses everything and sometimes not.

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gondwana
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby gondwana » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:17 am

So basically the self is still there but it feels more flexible and fluid and sometimes it encompasses everything and sometimes not.
Is the self a real thing?

If so, where is it physically located?
Does it have any shape, colour, texture or smell?

LOOK!
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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PepperAlmond
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby PepperAlmond » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:53 am

Is the self a real thing?

If so, where is it physically located?
Does it have any shape, colour, texture or smell?
It doesn't have a location. It's everywhere and nowhere. It definitely doesn't have any shape, colour, texture or smell, or feel to it. It doesn't seem to have any properties.

When I talk about my "self" nowadays, I mean the story about that particular little "self". But I feel like the actual self, if we even call it the self, is very different to this tiny separate person self.

I feel like the little "self" is a story. That story exists. It's in thoughts. But other than that, there is no little "self".

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gondwana
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby gondwana » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:34 pm

It definitely doesn't have any shape, colour, texture or smell, or feel to it. It doesn't seem to have any properties.
It's everywhere
If the "self" doesn't have any shape, colour, texture, smell, feel or any properties at all, then how do you KNOW it is everywhere?
What evidence for it do you find in direct experience, right now?
Isn't this in fact just an assumption?

**If you need to, go back to set start of the thread and our first experiment, with eating the fruit. Remember, something is either thought (not real) or, it must have a tangible direct experience - it is easy to verify which of these two things is true, for any claim, simply by looking.**
When I talk about my "self" nowadays, I mean the story about that particular little "self".
But I feel like the actual self, if we even call it the self, is very different to this tiny separate person self.
Please define clearly, what you mean by "little self" and "actual self"?
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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PepperAlmond
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby PepperAlmond » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:24 am

If the "self" doesn't have any shape, colour, texture, smell, feel or any properties at all, then how do you KNOW it is everywhere?
What evidence for it do you find in direct experience, right now?
Isn't this in fact just an assumption?
Yeah, you are right. I can't know that. There is no evidence. It's just an assumption.
**If you need to, go back to set start of the thread and our first experiment, with eating the fruit. Remember, something is either thought (not real) or, it must have a tangible direct experience - it is easy to verify which of these two things is true, for any claim, simply by looking.**
We never did an experiment with fruit. But yeah, I think I know what you mean. All we have of reality is tangible direct experience and thoughts.
Please define clearly, what you mean by "little self" and "actual self"?
The "little self" is the story of Vera that goes with this concept of physical body. The body is moving around in the bubble that is the reality and comes into contact with other bodies, other people, other "little selves". These little selves are all separate.

The "actual self" is the wider point of view. From wider perspective all the people are not separate but they are just parts of a larger whole. When I look at another person from this wider point of view, I see myself (not the little self, the actual self). The "actual self" doesn't belong to Vera, the body and the person. It belongs to everything. Other people's pain is my pain. The nature's suffering is my suffering.

I cannot see other people as myself (actual self) all of the time. Sometimes I perceive myself as separate (little self), but then it passes and I'm feeling everything once more.

I think that maybe this thing that I'm talking about is beside the point of this forum maybe? I'm not sure. What do you think?

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gondwana
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby gondwana » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:38 am

We never did an experiment with fruit. But yeah, I think I know what you mean. All we have of reality is tangible direct experience and thoughts.
Ah ok. I will post it at the bottom of this reply in case you’d like to try, for completeness sake.

But essentially, yes, you have the idea.
The "actual self" doesn't belong to Vera, the body and the person. It belongs to everything. Other people's pain is my pain. The nature's suffering is my suffering.
Is this maybe a belief/thought? Or has it been seen in actual experience?

What is this “actual self”? Can we give it a name?

When we strip away the story (the “small self”), and all the assumptions etc, what is the only true thing that remains?
I cannot see other people as myself (actual self) all of the time. Sometimes I perceive myself as separate (little self), but then it passes and I'm feeling everything once more.
Check whether there is an expectation here.
Perhaps an expectation that seeing no-self will mean that you then live permanently form some wider perspective of some “actual self”?

In fact this is not the case. Normal life continues.
Normal perspective continues. Sometimes belief in a “small self” temporarily returns.

The important difference is that when it does, you KNOW that is is just a thought. Re-Recognising this allows release again.
I think that maybe this thing that I'm talking about is beside the point of this forum maybe? I'm not sure. What do you think?
No not at all, we are right on point here.
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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gondwana
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby gondwana » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:30 am

Hi Vera,
Any progress on these points? Just write back where you got to, even if incomplete that’s ok!
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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PepperAlmond
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby PepperAlmond » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:09 am

The "actual self" doesn't belong to Vera, the body and the person. It belongs to everything. Other people's pain is my pain. The nature's suffering is my suffering.
Is this maybe a belief/thought? Or has it been seen in actual experience?
No, I can actually feel collective pain sometimes when I’m attuned to it. Often, because I’m super sensitive. If I hurt ‘another’, I hurt ‘myself’. I feel the same pain. Not all the time, but often. I’ve actually been like this most of my life. This has made life very difficult for me sometimes, because other people don’t understand it.

I’ve always been able to feel it. I just didn’t realise what it was until now.
What is this “actual self”? Can we give it a name?
We can give it a name so that it would be easier to talk about it. But you can’t really point to it or locate it. The phrase “actual self” is misleading I think, because it’s not really a self, unless universe has a self. It’s like consciousness.
When we strip away the story (the “small self”), and all the assumptions etc, what is the only true thing that remains?
What remains is nothing.
Check whether there is an expectation here.
Perhaps an expectation that seeing no-self will mean that you then live permanently form some wider perspective of some “actual self”?

In fact this is not the case. Normal life continues.
Normal perspective continues. Sometimes belief in a “small self” temporarily returns.

The important difference is that when it does, you KNOW that is is just a thought. Re-Recognising this allows release again.
Okay, interesting. So the perspective of ‘I’ stays even after it is seen that it’s just one perspective in the sea of consciousness. That seems likely. Can it still seem quite persistent? Like, “I know this thing isn’t real! But it still hurts so much!” Although, there is now something like “air” or “space” around the pain.

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gondwana
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby gondwana » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:39 am

The phrase “actual self” is misleading I think, because it’s not really a self, unless universe has a self. It’s like consciousness.
Ok, good. Agreed, the term is misleading so best we stick to what is known in direct experience :)
When we strip away the story (the “small self”), and all the assumptions etc, what is the only true thing that remains?
What remains is nothing.
Yes!

So can there possibly be any “self”?
Has it ever existed at all?
Was this only ever a story?
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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PepperAlmond
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby PepperAlmond » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:59 am

So can there possibly be any “self”?
Has it ever existed at all?
Was this only ever a story?
I got intimidated by this question. I know the right answer, but I can’t say that I’ve seen it clearly yet. I see that the self is a construct. I can’t find it in direct experience. And yet I haven’t gotten any big OMG moment. The suffering has gradually lessened, but I still feel like life is happening to me. I see that ‘me’ is just a construct, which makes life feel less serious and more at a distance, but I still feel like a ‘me’.

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gondwana
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby gondwana » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:08 am

I got intimidated by this question.
Does this perhaps mean there is some fear here?
Fear around seeing (admitting..) the self is not real?
And yet I haven’t gotten any big OMG moment.
Is there an expectation here?
An expectation that this will be a big “WOW”?

Is it possible, that what we are trying to see here, is in fact just a very ordinary everyday truth, but one that everyone simply avoids looking at?
I still feel like life is happening to me
What happens if we delete all the “I”/“me” references from that sentence, since we know they point to an empty (not real) thought anyway?

“I still feel” -> “there is a feeling”
“like life is happening” -> “like life is happening”
“to me” -> (this part just goes away)

= “there is a feeling like life is (just) happening”

How does that sound?
Does it sound more true? :D
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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PepperAlmond
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby PepperAlmond » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:47 am

Does this perhaps mean there is some fear here?
Fear around seeing (admitting..) the self is not real?
It definitely means that I still feel like I can get scared. I didn't differentiate the fear as just a phenomena arising. 'I' felt threatened. I'm getting confused though. Fear doesn't go away with the seeing, does it?
Is there an expectation here?
An expectation that this will be a big “WOW”?
Yes! An expectation that I got from reading Gateless Gatecrashers. :D But to be perfectly honest, it feels like for 'me', it's not going to be a WOW thing. More like noticing something that has always been and going, "aha, that's it, ok".
Is it possible, that what we are trying to see here, is in fact just a very ordinary everyday truth, but one that everyone simply avoids looking at?
Yes, I accept this as a probability.
What happens if we delete all the “I”/“me” references from that sentence, since we know they point to an empty (not real) thought anyway?

“I still feel” -> “there is a feeling”
“like life is happening” -> “like life is happening”
“to me” -> (this part just goes away)

= “there is a feeling like life is (just) happening”

How does that sound?
Does it sound more true? :D
"There is a feeling that life is happening"? Yes, it sounds very calming, very peaceful, very true. Could it be that when I say "life is happening to me", I'm just saying 'I' and 'me' out of habit? It feels like I've gotten many glimpses of the truth and I've been skirting around it for a long time. And every time I write or say the word 'I', it feels a bit off. But I'm not about to change the way I talk. I still use the word 'I' as before, to point to this construct known as Vera. Just because it's convenient and "everybody else" is doing it.

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gondwana
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Re: Looking For Guidance

Postby gondwana » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:42 pm

So can there possibly be any “self”?
Has it ever existed at all?
Was this only ever a story?
I got intimidated by this question.
To answer your question about fear, I didn’t mean fear in general. You can still feel fear about a speeding car heading towards you, and can (and should) move out of the way.

What I meant was, I challenged you quite directly to answer if there is a self in reality. You said, “I got intimidated by this question”.

That suggests there is a perceived threat to / fear of losing, the “self”. That will be what is preventing seeing from happening, and where we need to work.

We will need to face this head-on. But there is nothing whatsoever to fear :)

After all, what is true, is already already true right? Regardless if an incorrect belief masks it. So we are not really changing anything, other than a belief (a thought).
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.


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