Looking for Guidance to Awakening

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forgetmenot
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Re: Looking for Guidance to Awakening

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:47 am

Hey Eliel,

Lovely looking Eliel! :)
I don't create the thoughts. They happen on their own. They come as images, sounds. You said there's no point in calling them internal so I don't know how to describe them.
Yes, so thoughts just arise and subside and “I” is not a place where thoughts appear. “I” is a thought. It arises and subsides by itself.

How are sounds a thought? When the sound “woofwoof” appears, how is that a thought? What the sound is labelled as is a thought, but the sound itself, how is that a thought?
It only seems that thoughts change if you think that each thought is different from another. How is this known exactly? Without thought, how is it known that each thought is different from another?
I haven't explored this yet. I'll come back to it in a following post.
I await your findings :)
It may seem that ‘you’ “forget”, however are you not aware of each and every thought that appears, no matter what the thought is or is about?
Yes. It is thoughts that say 'I forget'. There is though AE's concomitant to what thought describes as 'getting lost in thought' or 'being distracted'. Something curious was noticed today. I was watching thoughts when it struck me that really I'm always watching, that there is always knowing. Is this what you mean?
Yes exactly! There is always knowing. How can there not be? So you are knowing of every thought, there are no hidden thought. You are knowing of every sound as it arises and colour, smell, taste and sensation. You are always knowing of the known. The known being sound, colour, thought, smell, sensation, taste. So there is simply knowingknown, they are one and the same thing.
You don’t THINK so, or when you were observing thoughts while doing this exercise, you actually could see that there is no preventing a thought? I don’t want you thinking answers, I want you to answer from what you found when doing the exercise.
I'll look into it more before writing down an answer.
Okay, I look forward to your findings.
How long is a thought? Where exactly is the middle of a thought? How long is a piece of string?
The length of a thought is more thought, the middle of a thought is more thought. The length of a string is thought.
Lovely Eliel! Yes. It is only a thought that suggests everything. There is just this moment with whatever is appearing...the rest is thought.
Look for this then. You should be observing thoughts throughout your day, every day. So look and see while observing thoughts to when they just randomly jump from a subject to something completely unrelated.
Let me know how you go and what you notice.
Thoughts happen a lot. Every few seconds a new one comes up. They being related or unrelated is thought. Also thought happening a lot is thought. Every few seconds a new one comes up is thought.
Yes! Nice looking.
Does the thought “I am feeling guilty because I am not yet seeing the truth” know anything about guilt. Can a thought feel? Can an actual guilty self be found in that thought?
The thought can't feel sensations. When looking for a self, none is found.
Wonderful! :)
The label ‘guilt’ is AE of thought and not AE of guilt
The sensation labelled ‘guilt’ is AE of sensation and not AE of guilt
The image labelled ‘me/I/body’ is AE of colour and not AE of a guilty person.
The thought ABOUT guilt (which are the contents of the thought) are AE of thought and not AE of guilt.
Can you see this?
Yes, you are right. Also 'sensation', 'colour' and so on are thoughts.
Yes, ‘sensation’, ‘colour’, ‘thought’, ‘taste’, ‘smell’, ‘sound’ are all labels/thoughts. So what is appearing is experience/THIS exactly as it appears. It is only thought that veils THIS with stories about it!
So, what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT guilt. So label, sensation, colour and thoughts are known, however is “guilt” actually known? Can an actual someone/anyone be found that is guilty?
No, guilt is never known. 'Guilt' is the content of a thought.
Yes. So every time ‘guilt’ seemingly appears, have a look to see if thought, sensation, colour etc know anything about guilt and look to see if you can find anyone that is guilty. The more you look the further you cement the seeing that there is no one feeling, saying, doing or thinking anything!

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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Eliel
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Re: Looking for Guidance to Awakening

Postby Eliel » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:18 am

Hello, Kay. I read your reply. Thank you. Today and yesterday have been busy for me. I will write more tomorrow. I keep noticing AEs.

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Re: Looking for Guidance to Awakening

Postby Eliel » Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:50 am

Hey, Kay. Sorry for the delay.
How are sounds a thought? When the sound “woofwoof” appears, how is that a thought? What the sound is labelled as is a thought, but the sound itself, how is that a thought?
The sound is labeled thought. I can see that. A thought arrived now saying: "there are external sounds, coming from my surroundings and another type of sound, an internal or thought sound". I see that as thought too.
It only seems that thoughts change if you think that each thought is different from another. How is this known exactly? Without thought, how is it known that each thought is different from another?
It is thoughts that say 'things' and 'thoughts' exist. When there are no thoughts, there are no differences.
You don’t THINK so, or when you were observing thoughts while doing this exercise, you actually could see that there is no preventing a thought? I don’t want you thinking answers, I want you to answer from what you found when doing the exercise.
There is no one to prevent thought.
Yes. So every time ‘guilt’ seemingly appears, have a look to see if thought, sensation, colour etc know anything about guilt and look to see if you can find anyone that is guilty. The more you look the further you cement the seeing that there is no one feeling, saying, doing or thinking anything!
Amazing. It is true. When 'bad' things happen and the questions are asked (is thought guilty? Is sensation guilty?) a smile comes. I'm not guilty nor any other words I may think describe me yet I AM.

Thank you, Kay.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Looking for Guidance to Awakening

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:26 am

Hey Eliel,
How are sounds a thought? When the sound “woofwoof” appears, how is that a thought? What the sound is labelled as is a thought, but the sound itself, how is that a thought?
The sound is labeled thought. I can see that. A thought arrived now saying: "there are external sounds, coming from my surroundings and another type of sound, an internal or thought sound". I see that as thought too.
Sounds are sounds. What they are labelled as are thoughts.

The label ‘bird’ is AE of thought and not AE of a bird
The sound labelled as “bird song” is AE of sound and not AE of bird
The image labelled ‘bird’ is AE of colour and not AE of a bird.
The thoughts ABOUT a bird is AE of thought and not AE of a bird

So what is actually appearing is label + sound + colour + thoughts about these being a bird. So is a bird actually known? Or what is actually known is label/thought, sound and colour?
It only seems that thoughts change if you think that each thought is different from another. How is this known exactly? Without thought, how is it known that each thought is different from another?
It is thoughts that say 'things' and 'thoughts' exist. When there are no thoughts, there are no differences.
Yes :)
Yes. So every time ‘guilt’ seemingly appears, have a look to see if thought, sensation, colour etc know anything about guilt and look to see if you can find anyone that is guilty. The more you look the further you cement the seeing that there is no one feeling, saying, doing or thinking anything!
Amazing. It is true. When 'bad' things happen and the questions are asked (is thought guilty? Is sensation guilty?) a smile comes. I'm not guilty nor any other words I may think describe me yet I AM.
Great! Another great exercise is for every thought that comes up, and to determine whether it is referring to actual experience or whether it is pure fantasy, replace the thought with “blahblahblah” and check whether what it was referring to, remains.
Let me know how you go.


And what is this "I AM"?

Let's have a look at how thought narrates what appears as life which makes it seem like the story is about a 'you'.

The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with. Do this exercise several times before answering the questions. The purpose of this experiment is to see how thoughts are like the commentator in the following clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (aka thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice, seems to feel as though they can influence somehow what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome, the commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.

Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off. Without thought and looking at AE, what is actually appearing/happening?

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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Re: Looking for Guidance to Awakening

Postby Eliel » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:38 am

Hello, Kay. I haven't switched to trying out the blahblahblah experiment or tried watching the soccer game and doing that other experiment. Hopefully tomorrow I'll find time to try them out. Thank you!

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Re: Looking for Guidance to Awakening

Postby Eliel » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:16 pm

Hello, Kay. I've done the soccer clip experiment once, last night "watching thoughts" experiment. This morning I tried out the blabhblahblah for the first time. I like the blahblahblah. With the soccer clip, I don't think the narrator is needed at all. The same as with thought. After repeating the experiment several times, I'll come back to this.

Honestly, this past few days the experiment has been carried out much less frequently. I don't know why. I've been very busy taking care of my mom and working, but it's been like that for a while now and I still had found time to do the experiment more before.

One thing noticed is that previously it felt good to do the experiments. Now there are many more thoughts, strong sensations, sometimes dullness. The thoughts come "I'll be more sharp now", "I'll do the experiments more".

Thanks, Kay.

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Re: Looking for Guidance to Awakening

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:49 am

Hello Eliel,
Hello, Kay. I've done the soccer clip experiment once, last night "watching thoughts" experiment. This morning I tried out the blabhblahblah for the first time. I like the blahblahblah. With the soccer clip, I don't think the narrator is needed at all. The same as with thought. After repeating the experiment several times, I'll come back to this.
Just watch thought throughout your day as you go about your daily tasks. Watch as it narrates, suggests, judges, opines, scolds, praises, dictates, commands, justifies, complains, snivels etc. Just watch it all. (And remember, that all those words are labels and are simply AE of thought. Do this lightly though. Don’t put expectations on yourself to be able to do this perfectly. Are you the author of thought? Can you control what thoughts appear? So if you find yourself going down the rabbit hole with thought and not so much observing them, that is fine, just notice how you observed the fact that you went down the rabbit hole with them – that in itself is an observation!

Let me know how you go.

The meaning given (thoughts that arise about those labels) to those labels are the content and are simply thoughts about thought and are AE of thought, not the AE of a person who is judging or being judged, snivelling, complaining etc.
Can you see this?

Honestly, this past few days the experiment has been carried out much less frequently. I don't know why. I've been very busy taking care of my mom and working, but it's been like that for a while now and I still had found time to do the experiment more before.
Defense mechanisms do start to kick in and is normal as there is a fear around what is being explored. The can appear as fear, resistance, tiredness, sleeping more, lack of concentration/motivation to do exercises, forgetting to do them, anger, anxiety, confusion and frustration. And the main one being, cessation of the exploration completely. Fear of the unknown and what seeing through the separate self means and what it will look like, feel like, what may or may not happen, the fear of losing control and even the fear of not having the realisation are what these defense mechanisms are about. Rather paradoxical since there is no separate self in the first place.

Perhaps relaxing into the exercises and having fun with them might also help. Being serious and treating the exercises as having to do them the ‘right’ way and perfectly, makes them a chore. It is not how they are done, but what is seen/experienced when doing them.
One thing noticed is that previously it felt good to do the experiments. Now there are many more thoughts, strong sensations, sometimes dullness. The thoughts come "I'll be more sharp now", "I'll do the experiments more".
And are you the author of thought? Can you control what thoughts appear?

Whatever thought SEEMS to be evoking the sensation, put it to the blahblahblah exercise and see what is actually appearing.

Let me know what the sensations are that are appearing and the thoughts that SEEM to produce these sensation so we can look at them together.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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Eliel
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Re: Looking for Guidance to Awakening

Postby Eliel » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:07 am

The meaning given (thoughts that arise about those labels) to those labels are the content and are simply thoughts about thought and are AE of thought, not the AE of a person who is judging or being judged, snivelling, complaining etc.
Can you see this?
This makes total sense. Yes.
And are you the author of thought? Can you control what thoughts appear?
I can't control at all what thoughts appear, or the sensations that appear to be concomitant to them.

Thank you for talking about the defense mechanisms. I keep investigating.
Let me know what the sensations are that are appearing and the thoughts that SEEM to produce these sensation so we can look at them together.
Thank you. Sensations thought of as unpleasant seem to concentrate in the chest, gut and neck. Also in the head. Curiously and conversely, when thought diminishes, something pleasant is felt "inside the head" and the head starts to vibrate. A recurrent content of thought, articulated, would be something like "why can't I stop thinking", "why are tensions not released if I'm trying to release them", "why can't this seeking end" and so on. It's about control.

I'd like to think I'm committed to this or that I should do this or that but if there is no control over thought or actions, how can the truth be realized?

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Re: Looking for Guidance to Awakening

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:54 am

Hey Eliel,
The meaning given (thoughts that arise about those labels) to those labels are the content and are simply thoughts about thought and are AE of thought, not the AE of a person who is judging or being judged, snivelling, complaining etc.
Can you see this?
This makes total sense. Yes.
Terrific
And are you the author of thought? Can you control what thoughts appear?
I can't control at all what thoughts appear, or the sensations that appear to be concomitant to them.
1) Imagine holding sensation in the right hand and thought in the left hand.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other? Is there a link between the two?

2) Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier.
Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?

Let me know what the sensations are that are appearing and the thoughts that SEEM to produce these sensation so we can look at them together.
Thank you. Sensations thought of as unpleasant seem to concentrate in the chest, gut and neck. Also in the head. Curiously and conversely, when thought diminishes, something pleasant is felt "inside the head" and the head starts to vibrate.
Let’s have a look at the idea of the solidity of the head. Once you have done the following exercise with the head, then try it with the chest, gut and neck.

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?

A recurrent content of thought, articulated, would be something like "why can't I stop thinking", "why are tensions not released if I'm trying to release them", "why can't this seeking end" and so on. It's about control.
When these thoughts appear, do you actually LOOK to see if you can find anyone/anything that is actually thinking these thoughts? It is important to LOOK each and every time to see if you can find anyone. The LOOKING is the key.

So really LOOK each time when a seeming disturbing thought appears and check:
If you made a particular thought appear
If you wanted that thought to appear in the first place
If you chose that thought to appear
Do you have ANYTHING to do with any thoughts?

Thoughts can have a stuckness if they are habitually associated with recurring sensations in the body. Like, for example if you had been bitten by a dog, then every time you see that dog, there is a “bad feeling in the stomach". Then stories start to appear about what a bad dog that is. When this kind of association appears, it is a good time to start digging! Usually the sensation in the body (the “bad feeling in stomach”) is being accepted as proof that the associated thoughts and ideas are correct. The association can be disrupted by carefully examining the body sensation and the thoughts, and seeing clearly that they are unrelated phenomena that happen to arise at the same time. This takes patience, the first few times it may not happen quickly, though over time it will become easier and quicker.
I'd like to think I'm committed to this or that I should do this or that but if there is no control over thought or actions, how can the truth be realized?
It just simply happens when and if it happens.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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Eliel
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Re: Looking for Guidance to Awakening

Postby Eliel » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:47 am

1) Imagine holding sensation in the right hand and thought in the left hand.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other? Is there a link between the two?
A thought says "They seem to be connected, arising in conjunction with one another". Then, when there is no thought, there is no connection nor are they independent. Any words used to describe them are different to the real thing. I see this.

2) Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier.
Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?
No thoughts on this after doing the experiment. I tried placing my attention on both at the same time. As always, what is being known seems to change. Thoughts come, sensations come. I can't control them.
Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?
There are thoughts and sensations. Head is thought.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?
There being a separation is thought.

I've yet to try this on chest, gut and neck. Will report back after that.
When these thoughts appear, do you actually LOOK to see if you can find anyone/anything that is actually thinking these thoughts? It is important to LOOK each and every time to see if you can find anyone. The LOOKING is the key.
Thank you so much. Hopefully there will be more LOOKING. I haven't found the one doing the thinking or feeling after countless attempts. A thought says "I will never find the one doing the thinking". Another one says "The looking is the point, not whatever thought says about the experiment".
So really LOOK each time when a seeming disturbing thought appears and check:
If you made a particular thought appear
If you wanted that thought to appear in the first place
If you chose that thought to appear
Do you have ANYTHING to do with any thoughts?
These are great questions. Mostly when LOOKING happens, there is the watching of thoughts and the occasional question "where am I?", "Am I this sensation? Am I this thought?" Hopefully the questions you present, most of which I've asked very few times, will be incorporated to the mainstays of the experiment.

Thank you for all the time and energy. I appreciate this very much, Kay.

Eliel

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Re: Looking for Guidance to Awakening

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:15 am

Hi Eliel,
1) Imagine holding sensation in the right hand and thought in the left hand.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other? Is there a link between the two?
A thought says "They seem to be connected, arising in conjunction with one another". Then, when there is no thought, there is no connection nor are they independent. Any words used to describe them are different to the real thing. I see this.
There are no words that can describe sensations or thought. There are no words that can describe experience itself. Thought tries by calling sensations, fear, pain, cold, hot, smooth, rough, hard, soft etc. Try and describe a thought or the colour labelled ‘red’, or the smell labelled ‘banana’, or the taste labelled ‘tea’ and the sound labelled ‘wind’.
2) Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier.
Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?
No thoughts on this after doing the experiment. I tried placing my attention on both at the same time. As always, what is being known seems to change. Thoughts come, sensations come. I can't control them.
Yes, so it is very challenging to hold two experiences at the one time, just like trying to hold two thoughts at the one time!
Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?
There are thoughts and sensations. Head is thought.
Beautiful, yes…‘head’ is AE of thought. Thought points to sensation and labels is a ‘head’. So there are thoughts ABOUT a head, but can a head actually be found?
When these thoughts appear, do you actually LOOK to see if you can find anyone/anything that is actually thinking these thoughts? It is important to LOOK each and every time to see if you can find anyone. The LOOKING is the key.
Thank you so much. Hopefully there will be more LOOKING. I haven't found the one doing the thinking or feeling after countless attempts. A thought says "I will never find the one doing the thinking". Another one says "The looking is the point, not whatever thought says about the experiment".
You are noticing thought really well...keep it up! Just watch thoughts throughout your day :)
So really LOOK each time when a seeming disturbing thought appears and check:
If you made a particular thought appear
If you wanted that thought to appear in the first place
If you chose that thought to appear
Do you have ANYTHING to do with any thoughts?
These are great questions. Mostly when LOOKING happens, there is the watching of thoughts and the occasional question "where am I?", "Am I this sensation? Am I this thought?" Hopefully the questions you present, most of which I've asked very few times, will be incorporated to the mainstays of the experiment.
Looking to see what is actual experience as opposed to asking “where am I”, or “Am I…..” are a better way of looking. Can a ‘me’ be found in thought itself? Or in sound, colour, smell, taste or sensation? Do any of these actually know anything about a ‘me’? There may be thoughts about a ‘me’ but do thoughts actually know anything?

Okay so you seem to be clear about thought, so let’s move onto the idea of control, choice and decision.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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Re: Looking for Guidance to Awakening

Postby Eliel » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:55 pm

Hello, Kay. Thank you.
There are no words that can describe sensations or thought. There are no words that can describe experience itself. Thought tries by calling sensations, fear, pain, cold, hot, smooth, rough, hard, soft etc. Try and describe a thought or the colour labelled ‘red’, or the smell labelled ‘banana’, or the taste labelled ‘tea’ and the sound labelled ‘wind’.
Beautiful. Thank you.
Beautiful, yes…‘head’ is AE of thought. Thought points to sensation and labels is a ‘head’. So there are thoughts ABOUT a head, but can a head actually be found?
No. Head cannot be found.
Looking to see what is actual experience as opposed to asking “where am I”, or “Am I…..” are a better way of looking. Can a ‘me’ be found in thought itself? Or in sound, colour, smell, taste or sensation? Do any of these actually know anything about a ‘me’? There may be thoughts about a ‘me’ but do thoughts actually know anything?
Many times just asking the question "where is the me in this sensation?" breaks the spell. Thank you.

As for the movement experiment:
How is the movement controlled?
I don't know. It's mind-boggling. There is knowing of the wish for the movement to happen and the movement itself. I don't know how the movement happens, though.
Does a thought control it?
Sometimes there are no thoughts being known and still the hand moves. While the experiment is done, many other movements happen, like blinking, without thought about blinking. I could say that thought doesn't control movement. The honest truth is I don't know if it does. What I'm sure of is that movement is known and sometimes intention for movement to happen is known before the movement happens.
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
I haven't found one.
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
This is tough and unnerving! The movement is known but no decision can be identified. I try to be very mindful, not go into thought and watch for that magical moment and I always miss it. It is not lost on me that maybe it doesn't exist.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
No.

Sometimes the hand would stop and many sensations would be known. Twitches, muscles being tensed and released, blinking, swallowing. They were known but the decision for them to occur was not known, just as when watching thoughts.

The experiment was tough and I'm not sure it has clarified things for me regarding action. It seems like a big mystery.

About the experiment as a whole, I keep watching thoughts and asking the questions. There is something very sweet about hearing sounds with eyes closed and watching thoughts come in and out and how attention narrows and expands as this happens.

Thank you, Kay.

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Re: Looking for Guidance to Awakening

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:54 am

Hello Eliel,
Looking to see what is actual experience as opposed to asking “where am I”, or “Am I…..” are a better way of looking. Can a ‘me’ be found in thought itself? Or in sound, colour, smell, taste or sensation? Do any of these actually know anything about a ‘me’? There may be thoughts about a ‘me’ but do thoughts actually know anything?
Many times just asking the question "where is the me in this sensation?" breaks the spell. Thank you.
Thank you for clarifying!
How is the movement controlled?
I don't know. It's mind-boggling. There is knowing of the wish for the movement to happen and the movement itself. I don't know how the movement happens, though.
Doing this exercise brings awareness to what is happening, so there is an awareness of the thought to move the hand. However, do thoughts appear about how to walk? Is there a thought for each action of moving the legs? No. So is thought needed to walk? Watch when you have a cup of coffee. Watch how often the hand goes out and picks up the cup for a sip without a thought appearing to action the movement.
Does a thought control it?
Sometimes there are no thoughts being known and still the hand moves. While the experiment is done, many other movements happen, like blinking, without thought about blinking. I could say that thought doesn't control movement. The honest truth is I don't know if it does. What I'm sure of is that movement is known and sometimes intention for movement to happen is known before the movement happens.
There is nothing unknown/unseen.
If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

So if you are not aware of a thought saying “I need to blink my eyes”, then no such thought has appeared. Just like when you find yourself ‘absent-mindedly’ scratching an itch. It isn’t until you have already started scratching that you notice you are scratching. Where was the thought to initialise that movement?
The idea that thought is the catalyst points to cause and effect which in turn points to time…there is no time.

So, do you have any choice, whatsoever, about what you're aware of?
If you think that you do, let's have a very good LOOK and see:

If thoughts say, "I can change what I'm aware of by closing my eyes", and suddenly eyes seem to close, and you are aware of only colour black.
Did you REALLY have any choice about being aware of all of that?
Did you have any choice about being aware of the thoughts, or the apparent closing of eyes, or the colour black?
Could you have chosen not to have thoughts about closing eyes?
Could you have chosen for the colour to be green instead?
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
I haven't found one.
When you do, let me know ;) :)
Sometimes the hand would stop and many sensations would be known. Twitches, muscles being tensed and released, blinking, swallowing. They were known but the decision for them to occur was not known, just as when watching thoughts.
Yes nice observation, Eliel.
The experiment was tough and I'm not sure it has clarified things for me regarding action. It seems like a big mystery.
When driving a car and needing to brake. Does a thought appear saying “oh, I think you should apply the brakes now”?

How is the decision made to which thought is needed in that very moment?
How would we go about bringing that thought to the forefront to then apply the brakes? Where would we go to find that thought?


For a decision to be made for an action to take place means:-
1. that there must be a someone or something, and
2. this someone/something is thinking
3. and this someone/something created and specifically chose which thoughts to think in the moment
4. and this someone/something then made a choice based on the decision made via thinking to brake or not brake.
5. and through that choice, the thought chosen was the catalyst that made the braking happen (which is cause and effect = time)
6. and last but not least, that there are feet that actually apply the brakes!

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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Eliel
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Re: Looking for Guidance to Awakening

Postby Eliel » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:08 am

Hello, Kay.
Doing this exercise brings awareness to what is happening, so there is an awareness of the thought to move the hand. However, do thoughts appear about how to walk? Is there a thought for each action of moving the legs? No. So is thought needed to walk? Watch when you have a cup of coffee. Watch how often the hand goes out and picks up the cup for a sip without a thought appearing to action the movement.
I haven't tried with the cup of coffee. However, I've been asking "who initiated this thought", "who initiated this sensation" and so on. Using the premise that only what is being known is real, I can confidently say that thought is not needed for walking, say.
There is nothing unknown/unseen.
If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
I find this confusing. For example, sometimes when watching thoughts, some very subtle ones appear. I cannot even make out what the content is. So the thought comes "there is more to thought than what appears in experience". You are saying only what is known is real. A thought appears, "I don't feel certain about that".
So, do you have any choice, whatsoever, about what you're aware of?
Not at all.
If thoughts say, "I can change what I'm aware of by closing my eyes", and suddenly eyes seem to close, and you are aware of only colour black.
Did you REALLY have any choice about being aware of all of that?
Did you have any choice about being aware of the thoughts, or the apparent closing of eyes, or the colour black?
Could you have chosen not to have thoughts about closing eyes?
Could you have chosen for the colour to be green instead?
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
No to all questions. There is movement. I see movement of, say, trees and the thought has come "thought is like that. Sensation is like that". I don't say "the tree decided to swing. The car decided to move" and so on.
How is the decision made to which thought is needed in that very moment?
I don't know that thought is needed.
How would we go about bringing that thought to the forefront to then apply the brakes? Where would we go to find that thought?
I don't see how to answer this question. I don't know that there is an I that can bring thought to the forefront.

I keep using the way I've been writing for a long time. Saying "I do this", "It seems to me that..." and things of this sort. However, I can't say anymore that I take choices or even that I exists. At least I can say honestly that I am not a body that takes decisions, has sensations, has thoughts.

Thank you, Kay. I look forward for instructions.

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forgetmenot
Posts: 3516
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Location: Australia

Re: Looking for Guidance to Awakening

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:23 am

Hey Eliel,
There is nothing unknown/unseen.
If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
I find this confusing. For example, sometimes when watching thoughts, some very subtle ones appear. I cannot even make out what the content is. So the thought comes "there is more to thought than what appears in experience". You are saying only what is known is real. A thought appears, "I don't feel certain about that".
If you cannot make out the content of the thought, then it is only an idea/another thought that says that there are thoughts that are too subtle to see! It’s like when sometimes the idea that someone is standing behind you appears, but when you look no one is there.
If a tree falls in the forest and one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
How can it? For something to happen that is unknown means that it is outside of experience/THIS itself! That would mean that separation actually exists. Firstly, if the AE of colour labelled as ‘forest’ isn’t appearing then, in that moment is the AE of colour labelled ‘forest’ actually known? Same goes for the tree falling and for the sound.
So, do you have any choice, whatsoever, about what you're aware of?
Not at all.
So then, if you are not aware of thought in the moment, then how can there be subtle/subconscious thoughts?
Can you hold two thoughts in the mind at one time? Are you ever aware of two or more experiences ?

If thoughts say, "I can change what I'm aware of by closing my eyes", and suddenly eyes seem to close, and you are aware of only colour black.
Did you REALLY have any choice about being aware of all of that?
Did you have any choice about being aware of the thoughts, or the apparent closing of eyes, or the colour black?
Could you have chosen not to have thoughts about closing eyes?
Could you have chosen for the colour to be green instead?
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
No to all questions. There is movement. I see movement of, say, trees and the thought has come "thought is like that. Sensation is like that". I don't say "the tree decided to swing. The car decided to move" and so on.
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

How would we go about bringing that thought to the forefront to then apply the brakes? Where would we go to find that thought?
I don't see how to answer this question. I don't know that there is an I that can bring thought to the forefront.
Exactly. It was just to give you another example on the idea of control. And yes, it is a mystery. As long as you looked to see if you could find anyone/anything that is in control, then that is all that matters.
I keep using the way I've been writing for a long time. Saying "I do this", "It seems to me that..." and things of this sort. However, I can't say anymore that I take choices or even that I exists. At least I can say honestly that I am not a body that takes decisions, has sensations, has thoughts.
Lovely! And how does this feel?

Just to affirm that the idea of choice has really been seen through, let’s try the following exercise. So the aim of the exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Place the two different drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.


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