Seeing seems to be happening..... - kindnessrules

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LindaR
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Seeing seems to be happening..... - kindnessrules

Postby LindaR » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:40 pm

Hi,

My name is Linda. Several years ago I was walking down a city street and it hit me that there is only one life living in every living creature. It was a beautiful revelation but did not take me far enough to realize that "I" do not exist. It did cause me to seek out others that also new that there is only one life. In my search I have read many books on enlightenment. I agreed and could see what they were saying was true but I still had not come to see that "I" do not exist. That is until I read Gateless Gatecrashers. After reading the first few stories I saw, felt, understood that "I" do not exist. I walked around for a day feeling free and laughing at the simplicity. I was also amazed at how nothing changed.

Now a few days later, I am not sure what to think. I feel a sense of complete terror. I have so many questions related to feeling terror. I still see that "I" do not exist but I still function as "I". Not having an "I" is making me feel insignificant. It makes me question eternity. I know there is no one that will die and needs eternity...and this terrifies me. Which is why I am seeking assistance.

I am very grateful for realizing that I do not exist because I want only the truth and I am hoping you can assist me in progressing. Thank you soooo much for your work and help!

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ElPortal
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Re: Seeing seems to be happening..... - kindnessrules

Postby ElPortal » Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:16 am

Hi there,

Many thanks for posting in this site and welcome to the LU community.

I will be willing to accompany, and to look with you, if you are up for that.

All I ask is that you give some honest time and engagement to the process:-
1. Try to post at least every other day, or let me know if you can't make it.
2. I will not teach, only point. You look until seeing is clear.
3. Each time, look (not think!) deeply, then just respond as simply as possible, with 100% honesty from what comes up in the moment in actual first-hand experience (direct experience).
4. Put aside all teachings, philosophies, books and videos, whilst looking together.

Please let me know if you are ok with these, and then we can begin.

What would you like me to call you? I am Mark

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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ElPortal
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Re: Seeing seems to be happening..... - kindnessrules

Postby ElPortal » Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:19 am

oops, silly me, you are Linda.

:-)

M
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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LindaR
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Re: Seeing seems to be happening..... - kindnessrules

Postby LindaR » Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:17 pm

Hi Mark,
Thank you so much for being willing to assist me. I am absolutely blown away that there are volunteers like yourself that are willing to help complete strangers. I can't even begin to express the gratitude I feel. What an amazing show of love for others!

I absolutely agree to commit to this process and be 100% honest as requested in your 4 points above.

Yes, please call me Linda :-)

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Re: Seeing seems to be happening..... - kindnessrules

Postby ElPortal » Sun Jun 14, 2015 7:20 pm

HI Linda,

Great to hear from you and you are welcome.
I am not sure what to think. I feel a sense of complete terror. I have so many questions related to feeling terror. I still see that "I" do not exist but I still function as "I". Not having an "I" is making me feel insignificant. It makes me question eternity. I know there is no one that will die and needs eternity...and this terrifies me.
So what I invite you to do now is to sit for a while and examine this terror. First examine all the thoughts and narrative about it, eg what claims as to why it is felt, what worries and panics etc, and make a list of what comes up. Each item on the list can be labelled (T) for thought.
Then, once you have done that thoroughtly, move on to examining the actual physical attributes of this 'terror' feeling. Listening to the senses, what comes up in the NOW experience? What feelings (not thoughts, feelings) sensations, their locations, attributes etc. These are the now experience and can be labelled (E) each time.

Let me have your list, please.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Re: Seeing seems to be happening..... - kindnessrules

Postby LindaR » Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:59 am

Hi Mark,
Thank you for your quick reply.  Those are intense examinations you asked me to make and I have tried to be completely open and honest in my answers below… to the point of rambling in spots, so I apologize if I shared more than what you wanted me to share. If I have failed in any area to provide what you are requesting please let me know. I want to do this correctly so I can get through the blocks and move forward.

T- If there is no “I” then everyone I love who has passed away also had no “I” and I will never see them again. (All of the comfort to get me through the losses has been the belief that I would one day see them again when I pass away). The further thought is a realization that if I don’t exist, and my loved ones don’t exists, and never have, Then there is and was never anyone to worry about seeing again.
E- This produces profound sadness because the love for all these non-individuals who have passed away is a very real NOW emotion/feeling. There is also a strong lonliness emotion happening and a feeling of having no control but grasping to figure out how to get it. I feel a strong sense to honor their memory by not minimizing their existence with a “no self” and yet there is a unwavering commitment to seek the truth in all things so I battle within between the two opposing desires. These emotions feel like they are being experienced in my heart.

T- If there is no “I” then I can no longer believe that evil comes from individuals. It must come from the Source of all creation. This would mean that Life (Source, God whatever is preferred) is not love but is a mixed bag of love, hate, good, evil, and all the other psychotic traits displayed in human beings and nature ( I include nature because animals also kill and devour each other for food).
E- The emotion with this is disappointment, anger, fear and panic because the Universe does not operate under a law of love. It dawns on me that this is also a feeling of being out of control. Not knowing what rules to play by. Also complete confusion. Emotions cause my stomach to be queasy and my heart to beat rapid.

T- Suffering has no purpose or meaning. If there is no “I” then there is no one who is suffering and no one who will one day spend eternity in a place that is comprised of only love and a place where suffering does not exist. This means there is no comfort to be found to help get through suffering. And, if there is no “I” or “you” who is suffering then that which is suffering will continue to suffer with no comfort or help.
E- Extreme sadness. Brought to tears.

T-All the hard work throughout the last 50 years to try and be a good person was an illusion and wasted time… Although this also gives me comfort because being good, kind, and loving isn’t always easy .
E – Now that I have typed this out I actually feel more relief than disappointment at wasting my time trying to be a good person. The scales may not have come out in my favor and now I don’t have to worry about that.

T- If I fully acknowledge that “I” do not exist because “I” am not detectable by the 5 senses, then by default it would mean that unless something is detectable by the 5 senses then it is not reality. My thoughts warn that this would be a limiting, disempowering, belief to grab hold because it excludes all possibility of reality beyond the 5 senses. And if there is no reality beyond the 5 senses then when this bodies dies…existence ends. This causes additional thoughts to arise to be careful what I buy into because I may find myself disillusioned in the same way I was when I firmly believed the Christian faith was the truth and the way I once believed the bible to be the word of God. My thoughts keep screaming “Don’t fall for man made beliefs again!”
E- TERROR! Stomach feels sick. Heart is beating fast. A sense of panic in the mid section of the body. I also feel a wall of protection going up to ensure I don’t falsely believe again. But then I feel a sense of comfort after typing that because the book Gateless Gatecrashers repeated over and over, “Don’t believe us…Look!” 

T- If life is experiencing life through many forms without an “I” then Life pisses me off because it is so cruel and it’s insistence on experiencing pain is insane. (I think I am repeating myself here but this keeps coming up as strong thoughts…or rather anger.)
E- ANGER! What is arising is a strong indignation that human beings (not all) are more compassionate than “Life (God)” because it seems that humans have the compassion but no power to end suffering but “Life(God)” has the power to end suffering but lacks the compassion to do so. The anger seems to be focused in the chest region.

T- I feel emotions of being insignificant without a “me”. It is a sense of this entire life experience is worthless, useless, a waste of time designed to torture the experiencers. In short, whoever, or whatever is running this show (or lack thereof) is a sick, sadistic, bastard.
E- Anger again. Hopelessness. Fear that it is all in vain. But also suddenly a deep feeling that I simply lack understanding and once the understanding is gained… all will be well. Weird how that thought crept in there .

Have a great day and I look forward to hearing back from you,
Linda

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Re: Seeing seems to be happening..... - kindnessrules

Postby ElPortal » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:19 am

Mark

Hi Linda

Thanks for that fulsome account of thoughts that are going on (T) , and some of the accompanying sensations (E). In general I'll ask you to be as succinct and as simple as possible, but sometimes it's good just to get the whole thing off the chest, just as it is appearing. So thanks.

This bit really made me smile:-
But also suddenly a deep feeling that I simply lack understanding and once the understanding is gained… all will be well. Weird how that thought crept in there .
1. It's like it is recognised somewhere in there that so much of thinking and reasoning is just a big 'angsting'-machine, a 'me'-ing vehicle, shrieking "WHAT ABOUT ME!?' Is there a recognition of that somewhere going on?

2. So looking through those theories, deductions and thought stories (the T's), what is ACTUALLY KNOWN for a fact? ANY of that known? Make a list of what in the (T) seems known for a fact and let me have it.

3. Then moving onto the (E), what of that is actually KNOWN? What is felt right now, this moment? Physical sensations (there was a little of that in your E-ing, but quite a lot of T-ing in there too: interpretations, commentary on what is thought about it). So let me have your list of what is actually known firsthand (as in felt, the sensations) right now.

4. Now, noticing all the (E)... just what is going on in the sensations/experience RIGHT NOW, at THIS level, is there any aliveness to these sensations? (Or do they feel dead and inert?).

5. What is known apart from these sensations?
6. Is there a ME to receive these sensations? If so how is that experienced?
7. Could it be OK for these sensations just to be happening?

This time, let's hone down to the main points.

Love and warmth,

Mark

(PS I'll often tend to number or letter questions, or exercises, so that we ensure that all are looked into and answered, one by one).
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Re: Seeing seems to be happening..... - kindnessrules

Postby LindaR » Mon Jun 15, 2015 3:10 pm

1. It's like it is recognised somewhere in there that so much of thinking and reasoning is just a big 'angsting'-machine, a 'me'-ing vehicle, shrieking "WHAT ABOUT ME!?' Is there a recognition of that somewhere going on?
Hahahahaha!!! Yes. Now that you put it that way I can see that it all has to do with “WHAT ABOUT ME”.
2. So looking through those theories, deductions and thought stories (the T's), what is ACTUALLY KNOWN for a fact? ANY of that known? Make a list of what in the (T) seems known for a fact and let me have it.
1st T Facts – If there is no “I” then everyone I love who has passed away also had no “I”. (Wow! That blew all those ramblings away! :-))

2nd T Facts – No facts. Holy crap!

3rd T Facts - If there is no “I” then there is no one who is suffering (but suffering happens and that sucks).

4th T Fact – Not actually known

5th T – It’s just funny to read my thoughts back now. I got nothing here.

6th T – Hahahaha! Nothing here either.
3. Then moving onto the (E), what of that is actually KNOWN? What is felt right now, this moment? Physical sensations (there was a little of that in your E-ing, but quite a lot of T-ing in there too: interpretations, commentary on what is thought about it). So let me have your list of what is actually known firsthand (as in felt, the sensations) right now.
My God, I am laughing so hard! Absolutely none of the Es are being felt right now. I am not sure I can feel any of them in that same context any longer because you blew away all my non-factual thoughts.
4. Now, noticing all the (E)... just what is going on in the sensations/experience RIGHT NOW, at THIS level, is there any aliveness to these sensations? (Or do they feel dead and inert?).
In this moment I am deeply humbled and see very clearly how I have been trying to protect “me” by creating thought stories that have no known factual basis but treating them as factual. They are dead. Damn…you are good Mark!
5. What is known apart from these sensations?
What is known apart from these sensations is that right now I am typing, the air conditioner is making a nice humming sound, my dog is lying beside me and there is a sense that a peaceful nothingness has opened up (This one is hard to explain).
6. Is there a ME to receive these sensations? If so how is that experienced?
No, there is not.
7. Could it be OK for these sensations just to be happening?
If they happen again, it will be perfectly okay for them to happen.

Mark, this was amazing! Every thought was revealed as nonfactual except two but I was living as though they were all factual and as a direct consequence, causing unnecessary suffering. In this moment, all possibilities have opened up and that feels amazing! Thank you so much. What’s next? :-)

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Re: Seeing seems to be happening..... - kindnessrules

Postby ElPortal » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:09 pm

HI Linda

Beautiful!

Going to push this a little further. Thoughts are so protective sometimes, like a little guard dog trying to defend a so-called 'me', aren't they:

We're going to stay with this firsthand NOW experience:
1st T Facts – If there is no “I” then everyone I love who has passed away also had no “I”. (Wow! That blew all those ramblings away! :-))
A. RIght now, what is actually KNOWN about passing away? Anything in this moment apart from mind conjecture, conveyed reports etc? Which sense knows passing away right now? What is the experience of it?
3rd T Facts - If there is no “I” then there is no one who is suffering (but suffering happens and that sucks).
B. Right now, in this moment, what is actually KNOWN of suffering, other than reports, speculation, apparent memories etc? Search the now sensations again.
My God, I am laughing so hard! Absolutely none of the Es are being felt right now. I am not sure I can feel any of them in that same context any longer because you blew away all my non-factual thoughts.
Laughing with you here!
What is known apart from these sensations is that right now I am typing, the air conditioner is making a nice humming sound, my dog is lying beside me and there is a sense that a peaceful nothingness has opened up (This one is hard to explain).
Tears welling up here at reading that.
C. So, notice that - without any real me to experience it - there STILL is that experience of dog-is-lying-beside-me-ness and all the rest. Has that disappeared now that separate I has been seen through? Is that sensation less alive than it was before?

D. Once the individual self is seen through, the old modus operandi (the mind at the helm) is no longer going to work too well, is it (like converting your car from gas to solar power)! Instead of trusting thoughts, let's look further into the first-hand experience of this moment. Can you truly not find any aliveness in it? Let me know what is felt (noticing the difference between T (= thoughts, speculations, commentary, labelling, assumptions, memories, assumptions) and E (= what comes up NOW in the senses and feelings - but careful: that is feelings MINUS the thought commentaries).

E. Please tell me whether, in this NOW experience, any autonomous I separate from the rest of all that is, can be found. If so, describe the sensation of it.

Excited to be in this discovery with you, Linda.

Hugs

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Re: Seeing seems to be happening..... - kindnessrules

Postby LindaR » Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:43 am

Indeed. Thank you for pushing a little further. I am grateful for the thoroughness.

Mark, this time with you has already had such an amazing impact on me. I spent time today looking at some of the thoughts as they presented themselves. It was fun taking a look at them and asking if they are factual. The thoughts that did not contain facts were acknowledged and then faded away. The thoughts that were factual were acknowledged and then faded away also to make room for the next thoughts. I also was able to be more aware of when I was NOW (which had no ‘me”) and when I slipped back to entertaining thoughts. It was fun.
A. RIght now, what is actually KNOWN about passing away? Anything in this moment apart from mind conjecture, conveyed reports etc? Which sense knows passing away right now? What is the experience of it?
Well, I went all over the board with this one but ultimately realized that the only thing that is known is that the physical body dies and the living bodies grieve the loss. Hmmm, maybe “passing away” is similar to the “university” example in Gateless gatecrashers. It doesn’t exist. Dead bodies exist but “passing away” does not. It is just a concept and label that we attach meaning and mind stories too. I need to think about this further…it makes my head hurt . There is no sense that knows passing away right now (but sight, hearing, touch, and smell knows a dead body). There is no experience of passing away right now but the experience of a dead body is well known…in memory and experienced with sadness and grief.
B. Right now, in this moment, what is actually KNOWN of suffering, other than reports, speculation, apparent memories etc? Search the now sensations again.
I tore some ligaments in my ankle and right now the sensations are unpleasant. But nothing else is known of suffering right now. So a thought hits me: Most suffering is entangled in memory only and memory is not real…it is just thought. The factual NOW only contains a hurt ankle evidenced by a throbbing, unpleasant sensation in my foot.
C. So, notice that - without any real me to experience it - there STILL is that experience of dog-is-lying-beside-me-ness and all the rest. Has that disappeared now that separate I has been seen through? Is that sensation less alive than it was before?
It is all still there, very alive, nothing has changed except the burden of carrying an “I” is lifted.
D. Once the individual self is seen through, the old modus operandi (the mind at the helm) is no longer going to work too well, is it (like converting your car from gas to solar power)! Instead of trusting thoughts, let's look further into the first-hand experience of this moment. Can you truly not find any aliveness in it? Let me know what is felt (noticing the difference between T (= thoughts, speculations, commentary, labelling, assumptions, memories, assumptions) and E (= what comes up NOW in the senses and feelings - but careful: that is feelings MINUS the thought commentaries).
Exactly, this was the experience today with thoughts being looked at to determine if factual. Its like the secret has been exposed. The first hand experience of this moment is the only thing that is alive. What is felt is…calm emptiness again. :-)
E. Please tell me whether, in this NOW experience, any autonomous I separate from the rest of all that is, can be found. If so, describe the sensation of it.
None can be found.
Excited to be in this discovery with you, Linda.
I am honored and filled with gratitude to work with you.

Big Hug,
Linda

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Re: Seeing seems to be happening..... - kindnessrules

Postby ElPortal » Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:33 am

HI Linda

Good to hear back from you. You're welcome.

So, you came in reporting:-
I feel a sense of complete terror. I have so many questions related to feeling terror
Please could you have a scan and tell me what terror is sensed now and what questions remain over feeling terror? No need to be polite, just hit me with an update of what is going on now.

Love

mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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Re: Seeing seems to be happening..... - kindnessrules

Postby LindaR » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:55 pm

Hi Mark,
Please could you have a scan and tell me what terror is sensed now and what questions remain over feeling terror? No need to be polite, just hit me with an update of what is going on now.
I honestly cannot find any terror to sense and I have tried really hard to find something. In fact, the sense I feel right now is completely opposite. It’s almost as if I see that Life is all there is and it is endless, without borders. Almost like a vast peaceful, full of love, expanse that cannot be put into words. And everything is life…everything! When I see from this perspective, I realize that fear/terror does not exist just like “I” do not exist. Except I do exist, but not as “me”, rather as life itself. And as life itself, I cannot find when I was born and I know nothing of death. It’s a freaky, weird sense that in some unfathomable way I am … everything and nothing. (I am really struggling to express this). And I saw for a short, startling moment that when the body dies, nothing happened. I can't explain that any further because it was a sense without words to describe.

I may be just having a cool moment, and I trust you will set me straight if so, but it feels pretty great. And everything in the environment is exactly the same which means there is work to get done, so food can be purchased :-)

Lots of Love,
Linda

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Re: Seeing seems to be happening..... - kindnessrules

Postby ElPortal » Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:00 pm

Hi Linda

Sounds pretty cool to me!

Maybe we could check a couple of things over and then, once it's clear that there is no major 'mind baggage' bunging up the seeing, get you invited into our 'aftercare' groups, where you can share with others who may have had similar experiences (or totally opposite ones too ;-) ). We can then certainly continue to look together also, if that feels right for you.

Now I invite you to look at how decisions and control seem to happen. Please take a normal daily activity such as choosing what food to buy, or preparing a meal, and as you do it, try to notice how the decisions seem to take shape. Is there any 'I' deciding anything? Does it feel as though there is any real autonomous individual there who is there responsible for anything. Describe the whole process as fully, but simply and succinctly, as you can.

Cheers

Mark
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.

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LindaR
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Re: Seeing seems to be happening..... - kindnessrules

Postby LindaR » Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:45 pm

Maybe we could check a couple of things over and then, once it's clear that there is no major 'mind baggage' bunging up the seeing, get you invited into our 'aftercare' groups, where you can share with others who may have had similar experiences (or totally opposite ones too ;-) ). We can then certainly continue to look together also, if that feels right for you.
That feels perfectly right. Thank you :-)
Now I invite you to look at how decisions and control seem to happen. Please take a normal daily activity such as choosing what food to buy, or preparing a meal, and as you do it, try to notice how the decisions seem to take shape. Is there any 'I' deciding anything? Does it feel as though there is any real autonomous individual there who is there responsible for anything. Describe the whole process as fully, but simply and succinctly, as you can.
What I see is that my decisions over the last several hours have occurred without any “me”. How can I explain this?…It seemed like they were actually just happening. I know that sounds crazy but it seems like they were more like actions that just happened and afterwards the thought, “I’m glad I decided to get that done today” came up. And I saw it!!!! The “me” sense came after NOT before! How did I not see that before????? I see there is no “I” deciding anything! I don’t know though, how decisions are taking shape. I can’t see that and I’m trying. What am I missing?

Can I just say that this is CRAZY good stuff!!:-D

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Re: Seeing seems to be happening..... - kindnessrules

Postby ElPortal » Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:59 am

HI Linda

Haha, perfect: I don't see anything missing, so far!

I am going to ask you our summary questions and then see what comes up. Just answer them honestly from the immediate firsthand experience, ie just tell it like it is! - as you have been doing all along:-

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
 
2) Explain in detail, as best you can, what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Just describe it fully as you see it now. 
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
 
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 
 
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Please try to describe the process as best you can, even if gropingly. Here I would like you to give one or two practical examples from your everyday-life experience (even if there is no real 'you'!) What are you responsible for? (please don't forget to answer all parts of this question, Linda).

6) Anything you would like to add?

Looking forward to hearing from you when you are ready.

Hugs

Mark.
"I": a simple case of mistaken identity.


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