Am I there yet?

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EmptySet00
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:21 pm

Seeking is no longer on. Suffering is still on. First belief to question: An awake person doesn't suffer. That, or I'm only partly awake.
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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Ilona
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby Ilona » Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:25 pm

Yeah, the expectation of happy ever after without any intense emotions......... Suffering is saying no to what is, this happens, a lot, till you start saying yes to all. Suffering starts loosening, when investigated. There is no I partially awake, you either see it or not. If what you see you do not like, it does not mean it is not happening. What is is. Simple. Intense emotions are included. And with time, the intensity only increases, but you get comfortable with it.

Yes, question every thought about what "awake person" does and does not, but mostly, if there is such "awake person" at all.

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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EmptySet00
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:31 am

The gatecrash has happened. There is nobody in control here, and nobody experiencing, just experience. There is still an identification process, but it's a set of thoughts and emotions, and it latches on to different things, isn't stable enough to be "I". An identification process isn't an identity.

But my thoughts, feelings, and behavior are often not consistent with my understanding. I still can feel insulted and angry as a result in some situations. Every once in a while a "should" pops up. I still waste a fair amount of energy wishing people or situations were different from what they are. And the committee carries on endless debates.

But I wouldn't go back, and don't think I can.

Oh boy, the stories! The "awake, enlightened person" stories. There's a real drawback to having heard about the lives of saints and spiritual adepts. Stories about freedom from suffering and perfection of character. A truly "awake person" wouldn't see themselves as an "awake person" as an identity- there is no identity! "I am an awake person." "I am not an awake person." "I will never be an awake person!" More thoughts, more identification processes! The identification process still tries to latch on to anything at hand!
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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Ilona
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby Ilona » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:07 am

Nice story about awake person, lol. But it's nothing better then to live it.

So is there a gate to cross? Is there an I to cross it? Is there a person to awaken?

:)
Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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EmptySet00
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:45 pm

OK, here's the "seeker" story. It's a good one.

Seeker feels that something is incomplete in life, that something just is not working. Seeker hears of something called "awakening" that sounds like an answer to all the problems and questions. Seeker finds someone who claims to be able to get them to this magic fairlyland. If Seeker is unlucky, they find some charlatan and become cult members. The lucky Seeker will find someone who can point them in directions that do lead to better understanding and less suffering. But Seeker still believes there's some magical place to get to.

Seeker builds Wizard of Oz scenario in mind- a "path" that leads to the magical castle. Once Seeker goes in to the magical castle, it's full of smoke and mirrors. After running in the maze for a while, Seeker finds the Master Illusionist. He yells, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" Seeker watches Master Illusionist do his thing for a while. Ultimately, it's realized that the path, castle, smoke and mirrors, and even the Master Illusionist were manufactured in Seeker's own mind. Then the whole thing dissolves and Seeker gets on with life.

Right now, this Seeker is watching the Master Illusionist generate the "Seeking" illusion. This Seeker now thinks that the most useful thing to do is continue to watch the Master Illusionist in action, that the whole story isn't quite over yet. Seeker needs to continue to pick apart these illusions, a few at a time, until the whole thing is completely seen through.

So, my dear Ilona, you now get to decide what to do with me :)

You can continue to work with me on this. You're really good at pointing out how various parts of this whole setup work.

If you think that this type of work is better done wherever it is that blue people go, you can ask the last few questions, and if I answer to everyone's satisfaction, send me to Blue People Land.

Or, you can decide that dealing with me is a waste of time and ban me from the forum.

Up to you :)

ES
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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Ilona
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby Ilona » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:14 pm

Nice story, but let me correct one bit. The seeker is illusion.
And in which mind is it created?
Mind creates a seeker that is looking for ways out of seeking, way out- stop for a sec and see what is that is seeking? What is in the way of peace? ?

Haha, I don't get to decide what to do with you, it's not up to me. :) but I have no intension to kick you out from here. This is your investigation, it does not stop before resolution happens.

You can do what you must and only that.

If/ when you are certain that you are ready for the final questions, let me know!

Much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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EmptySet00
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:42 am

Yes, "seeker" and "seeking" are just more thoughts that the identification process has latched on to.

When I stop and look what is in the way of peace is emotions that are connected up to unconscious assumptions, stuff that's still shaping thoughts and actions despite the change in perspective on the whole process.

OK, at the risk of triggering my "I am a good student" pattern, I'm ready for the final exam. Don't go easy on me. Some of my memories include a lot of fun with, and success at, various mental games. The "good student and smart gamer" are going to be throwing everything they have at this in order to fool you, any other examiners, and, above all, myself (strictly speaking, some anticipated thought pattern in the future that will assume no- self has been seen when it really hasn't).
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby Ilona » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:20 am

When I stop and look what is in the way of peace is emotions that are connected up to unconscious assumptions, stuff that's still shaping thoughts and actions despite the change in perspective on the whole process.
Did you expect that this will no longer be happening?
Change if perspective does not change what is being seen! Why would it? Thoughts trigger emotions, that's how mechanism works. Seeing that is easier to notice that this loop is in place. But from here on it's a matter of acceptance. All that is not accepted yet, will create resistance, till surrender happens.

Ok, let's see if you pass the exam, hahaha.

To be honest, the final questions are not exam. The exam really is when you say yes, I'm ready. So you passed already, now we will see if you are really seeing, or just think that you do. Hehe.
Fire away, when ready!

Here are the questions. :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5)can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full.

Much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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EmptySet00
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:47 am

When I stop and look what is in the way of peace is emotions that are connected up to unconscious assumptions, stuff that's still shaping thoughts and actions despite the change in perspective on the whole process.
Did you expect that this will no longer be happening?
Change if perspective does not change what is being seen! Why would it? Thoughts trigger emotions, that's how mechanism works. Seeing that is easier to notice that this loop is in place. But from here on it's a matter of acceptance. All that is not accepted yet, will create resistance, till surrender happens.
I'm having plenty of emotions, but don't see it as a problem that I'm having them! And yes, so far it seems like any getting "stuck" = lack of acceptance.
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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EmptySet00
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:06 am

Now on to that exam :)
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No. "I", "me", and "self" are, and have only ever been, thoughts that refer to each other and to other thoughts and symbols.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
"Self" is built into our language and culture, and we learn it as children. In order to communicate thoughts, feelings, or desires, we learn to say "I think", "I feel", "I want". We're constantly addressed as one self by other selves from childhood on. Since thoughts are usually unspoken words and sentences, the "I" concept gets built into our very thoughts. We start assuming that "I" refers to something real, as real, distinct, and fixed as the word "I" or our name.
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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EmptySet00
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:21 am

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
The process here has been fairly gradual. When I started here things had already been seriously in the works for a couple of weeks. So to answer this question I'd have to remember what it was like to be "me" in early January! This isn't that easy.

The self- criticism thoughts had produced a lot of suffering, which is why I started the dialogue in the first place. They're virtually gone now, and if they pop up the next thought is usually, "That didn't make any sense!" I know this is about a change in perspective rather than any particular experience, but "spiritual" or "peak" experiences are much more common than before. My overall tension and anxiety level is way down, but sometimes waves of strong emotion (positive or negative) will come over me. They roll through quickly, though. It feels like a new equilibrium, a "new normal", is getting established.

It feels like a lot of things were shaken loose, and the dust is still settling. The way it's playing out right now is through some feelings of disorientation, but with less anxiety about it than those feelings first came up. It feels at times like I've gotten off of a boat and am taking my first few steps on dry land, or like I've come out of a dark cave into bright sun.
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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EmptySet00
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:31 am

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Seeing my name, of all things. I had been working on disentangling thought loops. Around that time, I had an experience where I looked at my name, and realized how linked up it was with a whole web of thoughts, feelings, and attachments. These sorts of processes were now being examined more closely, so I saw the link between the stimulus of seeing my name and the response of "I" thoughts and feelings of identification. It was an identification process, but it wasn't me, it was just another chain of thoughts and emotions. That's when something really clicked about how all of this works. Not too long after that, the intensity around all the "seeking" just dropped.
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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EmptySet00
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:12 am

5)can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience
Free will, choice, and control are not there, at all, period. I don't understand the details of the workings of the human brain, but it's clear that thoughts, desires, and actions all emerge from something that is not under conscious control. Conscious awareness is just along for the ride.

"Decisions" still happen, but the process feels different, or maybe I'm just more aware of how it plays out. For example: Doing work that involves mental concentration. Feeling of hunger. Thought: "Might be time to get lunch". Thought: "But it would be nice to finish what I'm working on right now." Thought: "Here's a logical stopping point. When I get there, it's time to go eat." Then I finish the work and go eat. It's a push and pull between competing impulses, not under anyone's control. Eventually it gets resolved in one direction or another and life goes on.

"Intentions" are thoughts of the form, "In the future, I will try to... ", or "In the future, it would be good to... " Sometimes an intention is set and carried out, other times an intention is set and the later actions don't follow the intention at all. In the past, if actions didn't follow intentions, it would be, "Man, I'm such a hypocrite!" or "I just can't control myself!" Sometimes the conflict between intention and action seemed incomprehensible. This change in perspective has shed a lot of light on these sorts of processes. An intention is a kind of thought. It's just a thought, not attached to any stable, fixed "I". A thought in the present can't control future thoughts or actions.
6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full.

Much love.
Two things:

- This process can be pretty uncomfortable at times, especially for people who go into it without some understanding of how uncomfortable it can be. It was very helpful to have some knowledge of what the "dark night of the soul" is. I learned about this when going through some difficulties when I first started getting more serious about spiritual ideas and practice. Your disclaimer statement is very important, so please keep pointing it out. There is also plenty of good information about this that's available just by Googling "dark night of the soul". My advice is to point people who seem to be in any serious distress towards this information. It was amazing to me just how normal and predictable some of my experiences were, even when they were painful or seemed really strange.

- This was, and is, truly a process, not a momentary event for me. Maybe for some people it's like flipping a switch, especially if they have already done some preliminary work. There were some fireworks along the way, some "peak" and "valley" experiences. After one "peak" experience that went on for days, I was really convinced I had "gotten it". Then it "went away". That's around the time I came here. It was a tricky lesson to learn that it's a change in perspective that's being looked for here, not any particular experience.

OK, turns out there are three things to add. :) The last one is a big THANK YOU written in skywriting to you, Ilona, and to everyone else who does this work. This saved me from what could have been years of searching, seeking, and wondering if I'd ever "get it", and who knows what kind of junk I could have picked up along the way. This is so much more about dropping things than about picking anything else up. Yes, these are just thoughts referring to some hypothetical alternate reality, and things couldn't have happened any other way than they have. But you guys are amazing for doing all this work, for free!

Much love,

ES
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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EmptySet00
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby EmptySet00 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:59 am

<bump>
Did I pass? :)
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an "I"!

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Ilona
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Re: Am I there yet?

Postby Ilona » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:51 am

Haha, what do you think? Is anything unclear? Are there doubts arising?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com


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