Guide Looking for A Client Who Wants to Work

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Delma
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Guide Looking for A Client Who Wants to Work

Postby Delma » Fri May 10, 2013 1:56 am

I'm looking for a client who'd like to be guided by someone who promises to stick with you until you're done and do everything I can to help you. In return, I ask a few things:

1. That you will agree to be fully committed to the process. You will do all of the work.
2. That you will put aside previous teachings. They can actually stand in your way during this process.
3. That you will follow directives as they are given, even when you think you know the outcome or material.
4. That you will post daily. You can post more frequently if you like, but daily is the minimum.

And most of all, that you bring 100% honesty to the inquiry, including honesty concerning the 4 points listed above.

If this sounds like what you're looking for, I'll be more than happy to give it everything I've got. And there's no reason, given those guidelines, that it can't be done quickly. The challenge, you will see, is in following them.

Ready? :)
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
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Delma
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Re: Guide Looking for A Client Who Wants to Work

Postby Delma » Fri May 10, 2013 2:00 am

Forgot to mention.... you should not be working with any other guide at this time, either privately or on the forum. That can confuse things, and our goal is to clear things up!
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
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The-Song-Of-Me
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Re: Guide Looking for A Client Who Wants to Work

Postby The-Song-Of-Me » Fri May 10, 2013 10:27 am

Hi Delma,

Would you be interested in guiding me? To be honest I posted yesterday on the Home board, since I'm pretty confident that the Gate was crossed yesterday. However there has been quite a lot anxiety and a feeling of inestability and doubt pervading the experience. So perhaps I was either hasty in my conclusion or is just a natural part of the process, either way I feel I could do with some guidance. Here is what I wrote yesterday

B
y George she's got it??!!

Post by The-Song-Of-Me » May 9th, 2013, 3:28 pm
Ok, so first of all, "I" didn't get anything whatsoever and never will ;-)

Many years ago I fainted on a bus. I was deeply miserable at the time, so many worries an preoccupations running unchecked through my mind. It was hot, it was stuffy, it was crowded and I passed out for a few seconds, only for a few seconds...PURE BLISS! emptiness, presence, nothingness, everything.. and then the mind came back online. Misery.

The first time I sat down to meditate about 2 years ago I had been deeply depressed for many years. Jumping off a bridge had started too look like a reasonable option. As I close my eyes I felt given permission to sink into the misery, instinctively leaving the stories behind and just diving into the present moment. Letting the misery fill me (or so it felt at the time) allowing it to course through me and flow freely. To my own surprise instead of dragging me down into even more misery it lifted! My mind became quiet and sitll as a mirror.. for a bit. Walking back home I was shaking with relief and joy. I had found an invaluable tool.

A few months later on my first retreat I realised I didn't have to believe every thought that passd through my mind. I was seeing things through a filter. But it was all still all parents fault anyway.

2 months later. Another retreat. Amazing mental states. Pure bliss. Yes! I've cracked it! This is it! It was so easy. I must be special. This is wonderful. "There is no self". Isn't there? I suppose not. Oh well, who cares when I'm walking on air filled with pure joy and happiness.

No more blissful mental states. I'm doing something wrong. Maybe I'm a bad person. I need to meditate harder, longer, practice more ethics. Like they say at the buddhist centre. Enlightenment? That's only for very, very, very good people who have transcended all craving and negative mental states. Saints. And you first have acquire mystical powers or something.

satipatthana sutta retreat. Who is doing the seeing? Not me! and the hearing..? Still not me. And the thinking and the emotions?? Oh, my god, still not me!! They are just arising! What is me??!! Is this it? How can THIS be it?! It's too simple! I had already planned the rest of my life and it was going to be a life dedicated to meditation, austerity and the rigourous application of ethics! It can't be this easy! Except.. once seen it cannot be unseen.. What now?

Pure Awareness retreat, yep still not me doing anything, just a self perpetuating thick web of habits an conditioning, reacting, reacting, always reacting. So liberating to see this! Is this it?

But.. I AM still there somewhere, trapped. How can I drop the me?

Reading Nothing to Grasp by Joan Tolliffson. There is no choice. It's an illusion. The hell it is! of course there is a choice! I CHOOSE ALL THE TIME! Except.. hang on.. nope there is no-one there making a choice! yikes! Fear, fear, fear! And relief...

Ok, ok, it's fine, life is just sorting itself out. Thought comes after everything that happens; labelling, APPROPRIATING, it's funny really, when you catch that thought appropriation process happening!

And yet, and yet... I AM still there somewhere! still trapped! Still suffering! How can I liberate MY SELF? Why can "I"not see that "I" don't exist? I'm starting to see the irony of that question.

Reading Gateless Gatecrashers. Ilona: if I give you an imaginary melon and then tell you to get rid of it, what do you do? Ah.... There was never a melon and there was never an I. There is existence, but I was always just a thought and imaginary, gigantic melon that carried itself around identifying with everything and anything and identifying everything and anything as self. A joke basically.

I hope this all makes sense!

Thanks for reading and for this wonderful project, website, book, app...
Many, many thanks!!
S
Let me know if you're interested.

Best regards
Silvia
The play of shine and shade on the trees as the supple boughs wag,
The delight alone or in the rush of the streets, or along the fields
and hill-sides,
The feeling of health, the full-noon trill, the song of me rising
from bed and meeting the sun.

W W

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Delma
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Re: Guide Looking for A Client Who Wants to Work

Postby Delma » Fri May 10, 2013 1:37 pm

Hi Siliva,

Were you working with a guide?
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
tabulrasablog.com
seeingnoself.com

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The-Song-Of-Me
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Re: Guide Looking for A Client Who Wants to Work

Postby The-Song-Of-Me » Fri May 10, 2013 4:14 pm

Hi Delma,

No I wasn't working with another guide.

S
The play of shine and shade on the trees as the supple boughs wag,
The delight alone or in the rush of the streets, or along the fields
and hill-sides,
The feeling of health, the full-noon trill, the song of me rising
from bed and meeting the sun.

W W

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Delma
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:03 am
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Guide Looking for A Client Who Wants to Work

Postby Delma » Fri May 10, 2013 5:51 pm

Perfect.

Let's get to work! :)

The first thing I'd like to do is to relieve you of all of that history. But thank you for letting me know what has brought you to LU, and to this point. It's really helpful. And mostly! It's helpful in allowing me to tell you to let it go. Just forget about it for a while so that we can approach this with fresh eyes.

You see, all that above is a story. That's probably something you know intellectually, but the goal is to experience it. To FEEL it. And we'll never get there if we stay in our heads. What we need to do is to do some exercises (simple ones) to get you to see the difference between reality and illusion. I mean REALLY see it.

So, let's begin.

Is there an object in front of you right now? One you can pick up? If not please find an object and hold it, then tell me about it in as much detail as you possibly can. I'd like to know about its shape, color, texture, smell, temperature, size... anything that can be determined with the senses, and only the senses.

Deal? :)

Welcome!
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
tabulrasablog.com
seeingnoself.com

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The-Song-Of-Me
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Re: Guide Looking for A Client Who Wants to Work

Postby The-Song-Of-Me » Fri May 10, 2013 8:02 pm

Great! This is very exciting. Thank you very much for taking me on :)

Ok, so letting go of the stories. Not a problem and in many ways a relief, I already breath better.

Object: I pick up an orange that's next to my computer

It smells like an old orange starting to go pruny (which it is); sweet, too ripe, slightly decaying smell

colour, a dull orange with patches of green and black dots

To the touch, is dry, rough, bumpy surface, spongy if I press it.

Size, bigger than a tennis ball, feels heavy in my hand.

Although it's room temperature it feels colder to my skin

Round, slightly shrivelled, covered in pores with ridges at the top.

The skin tastes ever so slightly bitter if I lick it.

That's it more or less..

Silvia
The play of shine and shade on the trees as the supple boughs wag,
The delight alone or in the rush of the streets, or along the fields
and hill-sides,
The feeling of health, the full-noon trill, the song of me rising
from bed and meeting the sun.

W W

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Delma
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Re: Guide Looking for A Client Who Wants to Work

Postby Delma » Fri May 10, 2013 8:35 pm

Excellent!

Let's begin to pull it apart, so that we're sure of the difference between the world of the orange as it exists, and the world of the orange created in the mind. Though it seems obvious, it's actually hard to tease apart because we have been conditioned to see the two as 'the same'. Remember, this isn't a criticism, but an exploration.

"It smells like an old orange starting to go pruny (which it is); sweet, too ripe, slightly decaying smell"

Via the senses, and without relying upon memory of past oranges, what can you say about the smell?


"colour, a dull orange with patches of green and black dots"

Without referencing memory and learning, there is a visual experience of color, yes. Notice, however, how we can't say 'green' or 'black' or even 'dots' without reliance upon thought. Just take notice of that.


"To the touch, is dry, rough, bumpy surface, spongy if I press it. "

See whether 'dry' is something learned. There is a feel, a real sensory experience, but can you see how 'dry' is an interpretation of that feel?


"Size, bigger than a tennis ball, feels heavy in my hand."

You can see here, size is judged in the mind. Without referencing other objects or memories, does it have size? Or heaviness? And isn't size and weight judgement relative?


"Round, slightly shrivelled, covered in pores with ridges at the top. "

This looks like a more pure sensory description. Good.


"The skin tastes ever so slightly bitter if I lick it."

Glad you licked it to find out! But if you see the orange as an older one, can you begin to see that 'bitter' might have a judgement thought that goes with it? What is 'bitter' without thought? Just another taste sensation?

I'm being picky here, but the exercise's main purpose is to see whether the experience of the orange is happening in the senses or the mind.

So, let's look.....What percent of the experience do you think was in the senses, and what percent in the mind?
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
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seeingnoself.com

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Re: Guide Looking for A Client Who Wants to Work

Postby The-Song-Of-Me » Fri May 10, 2013 9:37 pm

Via the senses, and without relying upon memory of past oranges, what can you say about the smell?
without refering to past oranges, I'd say it smells.... I have no idea really. Impossible to describe the smell of an orange without saying things like orangey or citrus. I could say it's a kind of heavy sweetness with a thouch of bitterness, but even that label refers to a memory of other smells and how this one compares to them doesn't it?
In fact I'd say the orange doesn't have one particular smell. There is a series of sensations coming from the orange that as soon as they touch my nose trigger a series of thoughts, emotions, memories... labels.

Without referencing memory and learning, there is a visual experience of color, yes. Notice, however, how we can't say 'green' or 'black' or even 'dots' without reliance upon thought. Just take notice of that.
Ok, I'm taking notice. And yes I agree. Like the smell there is no way to describe anything without slapping on a series of rudimentary labels based on comparison and past experience. If I'm really honest I cannot say that the orange is orange. The "colour" is too uneven, mottled, varies with the light, my eyes, the angle. There is an overall sensation of what the mind has learned to call orange.
See whether 'dry' is something learned. There is a feel, a real sensory experience, but can you see how 'dry' is an interpretation of that feel?
Dry is a relative quality. Like hard, soft, liquid, solid... etc. it is only dry or solid in relation to some other thing usually our own bodies, And only as far as the mind can make out a difference. There is no dryness per se.
You can see here, size is judged in the mind. Without referencing other objects or memories, does it have size? Or heaviness? And isn't size and weight judgement relative?
Yep, absolutely, they're relative and judged by the mind.
can you begin to see that 'bitter' might have a judgement thought that goes with it? What is 'bitter' without thought? Just another taste sensation?
I don't know what bitter is without thought. Just a sensation I suppose (although that too is a lable), and again unless you compare it with somehting else the label bitter is meaningless. It only exists in language for communication purposes, like comparing the orange to a tennis ball.
the exercise's main purpose is to see whether the experience of the orange is happening in the senses or the mind.
as far as I can see the orange only happens in the mind, but the experience or sensations happen in the senses and the mind sort of recognises a certain pattern or series of remembered sensations as an orange in order to simplify things.
What percent of the experience do you think was in the senses, and what percent in the mind?
uuuh.. I really don't know what percentage! I'd say that the sensations are the sensations and that's that; 100% undiluted, then there is the idea of The Orange, the labeling (colour, texture..), happening very, very quickly after, followed by a shower of related thoughts (the orange is too ripe), emotions (regret; i should have eaten it sooner), memories (my mum making me fresh orange juice when I was little), etc, etc..

Phew, I feel steam coming out from my ears! I think I'll eat the orange to recover some vitamins.
The play of shine and shade on the trees as the supple boughs wag,
The delight alone or in the rush of the streets, or along the fields
and hill-sides,
The feeling of health, the full-noon trill, the song of me rising
from bed and meeting the sun.

W W

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Delma
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Re: Guide Looking for A Client Who Wants to Work

Postby Delma » Fri May 10, 2013 9:48 pm

Beautiful. :)

Now that you see the difference between the reality of an orange (sensory experience. It's tangible), and the overlay (thought. Intangible), let's look at what the word "Real" means in this context.

We won't try to find an Ultimate definition of real, just one we can work with for the purposes of navigating through life.

Conventionally speaking, would you say that sensory input defines "Real"? Think of Santa, a unicorn, or fairies. Why aren't they Real as opposed to the orange?
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
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seeingnoself.com

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Re: Guide Looking for A Client Who Wants to Work

Postby The-Song-Of-Me » Fri May 10, 2013 10:10 pm

Yes, I'd say the sensory experience is real. Some ideas like orange refer to sensory experience and some others refer only to thoughts. And sometimes the mind miss-interprets sensory experience for something and sees somethings that doesn't exist, like a mirage in a dessert.

I suppose hypothetically speaking, batman or santa could very well exist, but I don't have any direct experience of them. They are just ideas of ideas as far as I'm concerned.
The play of shine and shade on the trees as the supple boughs wag,
The delight alone or in the rush of the streets, or along the fields
and hill-sides,
The feeling of health, the full-noon trill, the song of me rising
from bed and meeting the sun.

W W

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Delma
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Location: Florida
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Re: Guide Looking for A Client Who Wants to Work

Postby Delma » Sat May 11, 2013 1:52 am

Exactly. And this is an extremely important point because the two get confused all the time. As a matter of fact, it's so ingrained that it takes effort to discern the two.

Please take some time this evening and tomorrow to take a look at your surroundings to try to separate the real from the imaginary. I know that this seems an almost ridiculously simple exercise, and it's very easy to turn it into a checklist, but I urge you to sit with it and to very clearly separate the two. The more you do this exercise experientially, the stronger the foundation for moving to the next step.

Really feel, see, smell, touch, taste the objects. Move as far into sensory experience as you can.

Let me know how this exercise goes.

Great day today!

:)
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
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seeingnoself.com

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Re: Guide Looking for A Client Who Wants to Work

Postby The-Song-Of-Me » Sat May 11, 2013 7:48 am

Good morning Delma,

I just woke up to see your message (It's 7.46 am in London). I shall dedicate the day to this exercise and report on it in the evening.

Thank you very much for your time! :)
Silvia
The play of shine and shade on the trees as the supple boughs wag,
The delight alone or in the rush of the streets, or along the fields
and hill-sides,
The feeling of health, the full-noon trill, the song of me rising
from bed and meeting the sun.

W W

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Re: Guide Looking for A Client Who Wants to Work

Postby The-Song-Of-Me » Sat May 11, 2013 4:49 pm

Hello again Delma, I hope you're having a nice Saturday.

Ok, so you asked me to
take a look at your surroundings to try to separate the real from the imaginary.
Really feel, see, smell, touch, taste the objects. Move as far into sensory experience as you can.
This exercise became the proverbial rabbit hole and into it the "I" went tumbling down.

The truth is this is the 5th time I start writing this reply! I'm finding it very difficult to put this into words.

Ok, so there is no self. There is NO self. No "I" no "me" (from here onwards I'll be using those words only for semantic purposes! :)), no-one driving this car, operating the controls, directing this body.

It's crystal clear now. No more doubt. I can't believe it is this simple! But really, why oh why should I be surprised? When I've read it, said it, believed it a thousand times over! :):):) I'm laughing now!

I'm not sure what tipped me over the edge, as I was sitting meditating this morning focusing on the breath, I was very aware that I wasn't doing the focusing, it was just happening. Easily, smoothly, effortlessly. And then suddenly the focusing on the breath wasn't happening anymore, there were thoughts, distractions. And that was fine too. No-one was doing it. There were some thoughts that I really should be making more effort on focusing on the breath, but this thought, which I would usually take as "me" appeared clearly as just a habitual thought, empty of me.

Then the attention turned again into the immediate experience of the senses and a thought popped up immediately after that "I should be getting on with the exercise Delma asked me to do", but I could see clearly that the thought came AFTER the turn of attention happened all by itself. And then there was only seeing, feeling, sensing and thoughts and it was all fine. No-one was doing anything.

The immediate sensations became more vivid. For example as attention turned back to the breath, at first there was the idea of breath, the memory of the action, the memory of past meditations and what a "good" meditation feels like... an image of me sitting down breathing, an image of the nose and breath going in and out, the lungs... etc and then all these faded and there was only sensation, no breath, no body, no thought, just sensation and then even "sensation" disappeared there was only... this!; energy, aliveness, love... no label seems appropriate! But the funny thing is that in no way was this experience new! It happens almost every single time I sit to meditate, why this time it because so obvious that there was no entity behind any of these is.. well, is beyond me!

The same happened whenever attention turned into the sensation of the meditation bench under my bum or the feel of the pyjamas against my skin, the air on my hands, and when I opened my eyes there was "just the seen". I didn't have a clue of what I was looking at, shapes, textures, colours.. but everything seemed so alive, almost in flow, less fixed and solid. Again nothing new here, but this time there was no seer, no toucher, no feeler... something had just gone poof!

And that something was the thought of me! I noticed there was still a sort of Silvianess to the experience, but guess what! when attention turned to that, I realised it was just that!; a feeling with a thought attached to it, a pattern of habit caught in the act! Brilliant!

After this I felt I was just experience, energy, flowing, changing and just this. I also felt suddenly exhausted, like my head was going to crack open, so I went back to bed and stayed there for over 2 hours! and there were thoughts that if I had really crossed the gate I would be full of energy instead of falling into bed like a useless lump and then I laughed because there was no-one to doubt; just doubt!

When I woke up from my doze there was still just this and I remembered the opening scene on that movie with Will Smith where zombies have taken over the world and there is only one human left. There is this big city (can't remember which) and it's completely deserted and silent and it's slowly being taken over by nature! Animals roam freely about and you can see vegetation has started to slowly grow here and there. I remember being thrilled by that image, even if the rest of the movie was completely forgettable. And I think that's how it is with "me" now, there is this massive construction of habits and thought patterns, but like with the empty city there is none to keep it up and maintain it now so it will just crumble and return to emptiness! Nature will take over in its own time!

I don't know what it is about reading Gateless Gatecrashers and the other post on this website and then writing on them myself, but it works. It feels like I was on the cusp of something and they have given me the kind of extra focus I needed to tip me over the edge. Brilliant!

Thank you so much for listening! I hope this post isn't too tediously long. Please ask any questions you may have. I know it's happened but I'm ready to challenge any assumptions left behind!

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!
Silvia
The play of shine and shade on the trees as the supple boughs wag,
The delight alone or in the rush of the streets, or along the fields
and hill-sides,
The feeling of health, the full-noon trill, the song of me rising
from bed and meeting the sun.

W W

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Delma
Posts: 1525
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:03 am
Location: Florida
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Re: Guide Looking for A Client Who Wants to Work

Postby Delma » Sat May 11, 2013 10:33 pm

Amazing! And yet not at all surprising. My request was meant to appeal to someone who was very ready, and it's evident that it hit the mark. :)

Tell me... would you like to complete the confirmation process? We have a series of questions if you'd care to answer.

Let me know.

Excellent!

Delma

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There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
tabulrasablog.com
seeingnoself.com


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