Please help me see through the illusion

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Sanjay
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Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:54 pm

I chanced upon your website yesterday and I'm so happy and thrilled to know that you are willing to take my hand and walk me through the Gateless Gate. And what's more, you're asking for nothing in return.

I've been seeking enlightenment for the past 20 years. I am an obsessive thinker and I have been believing that I can think my way through this illusion. Having read hell of a lot of books on nonduality, advaitha, the works of Nissargadatta Maharaj, Bob Adamson, John Wheeler, Annette Nibley, etc and breaking my head over them for days on end sometimes and the seeing through the separate self has not happened yet. A great sense of frustration arises when ever the seeking starts. I sincerely hope you can crack this hard nut open. I have never been very bright and may take a lot of your precious time to arrive. Please slap me if you have to but please please please don't give up on me. I want to get it done with once and for all. I wish to express my heartfelt gratitude for your guidance, and for being open and available to people like me.

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cosmiK
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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:54 am

Hey Sanjay,

let's do this. I will see if I can another guide or two in this, but I'm here with you for now.

There are a few ground rules, please respond to confirm:

1. You agree to post at least every day.
2. I will post questions, and you will answer them.
3. When you answer you answer 110% honestly,
4. and when you do answer, you answer from your direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function.

Also, please dig deep and honestly and simply state your Expectations for Awakening from the illusion of a separate self. What are they?

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Sanjay
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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:30 am

Dear Cosmik,

Just knowing that you are here to guide me along the way makes me feel so very grateful and happy. I thank you for that from the very bottom of my heart.

You've asked me to stick to a few ground rules and I will follow them right to the end. But I have one question though. Since childhood I have always been a bit analytical. Would you advice me only to look from direct experience and put analysis and conclusions completely out of the way? Is analysis completely useless in this exploration?

To be really very honest I have been thinking that awakening from the illusion will :

1) Wipe out all of my problems.
2) Will make me superior, a God even, as in "Be still and know that I am That".
3) Will be bliss-ed out all the time.
4) Everyone will look up to me.
5) I can work out miracles with a flik of my little finger.
6) Get whatever I wished.
7) Astral travel, etc.

But its been a long time since these school boyish expectations had dropped away. I now view them as merely the ME's hopes and dreams. If I am merely a label how can I have desires. I picked up this line from your free ebook Gateless Gatecrashers : )

The following are the expectations I currently have about awakening.

1) Live originally and authentically by become free from the social mask and social programming.
2) Freedom from the entity, the "I", the "ME".
3) Freedom from striving to fulfill desires that compel me.
3) Freedom from my own self destructive habits
4) Freedom from fear.
5) Feel one with the Universe.
6) Get me out of the cycle of rebirth.

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cosmiK
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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:50 am

Hey Sanjay,
Would you advice me only to look from direct experience and put analysis and conclusions completely out of the way? Is analysis completely useless in this exploration?
If you had an orange in your hand, and saw it was an orange, and tasted that it was an orange. I would ask you. Is analysis completely useless in the SEEing it was an orange?

There is no self, regardless of analysis or not. To SEE this, we put analysis and 'mind' work aside. The 'mind' is understood to be a stream of self-referencing thoughts, with "I" claiming it's center, ownership and control. We come fully in to our senses, in to the 'body', in to the Here, and Now, and we investigate this claim that is auto-assumed to be True.
To be really very honest I have been thinking that awakening from the illusion will :

1) Wipe out all of my problems.
2) Will make me superior, a God even, as in "Be still and know that I am That".
3) Will be bliss-ed out all the time.
4) Everyone will look up to me.
5) I can work out miracles with a flik of my little finger.
6) Get whatever I wished.
7) Astral travel, etc.

But its been a long time since these school boyish expectations had dropped away. I now view them as merely the ME's hopes and dreams. .....<>

1) Live originally and authentically by become free from the social mask and social programming.
2) Freedom from the entity, the "I", the "ME".
3) Freedom from striving to fulfill desires that compel me.
3) Freedom from my own self destructive habits
4) Freedom from fear.
5) Feel one with the Universe.
6) Get me out of the cycle of rebirth.
It seems your Expectations have evolved a little more from boyish expectations to adult seeker expectations. Expectations are all attachments to an imagine future and self. They will not serve you, and will hinder you. Let them go. If they pop up, drop them.

If I am merely a label how can I have desires. I picked up this line from your free ebook Gateless Gatecrashers : )
This is reasoning and analysis all still based on the assumption that there is a "You" that is going become "Enlightened". This process shines light on that assumption. "You" will never Awaken.

This process, is simply about seeing the illusion of the separate self. It is not a quick fix, a path to super peace, bliss, oneness. It is about the simple Truth. The core delusion.

Are you truly ready for that?

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Sanjay
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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:39 am

Hi Cosmik, thanks you for your response !
If you had an orange in your hand, and saw it was an orange, and tasted that it was an orange. I would ask you. Is analysis completely useless in the SEEing it was an orange?
This example has made made it very clear to me that analysis and the mind are not needed and they have to be put away. I'll make it a point to stick to my direct experience.
It seems your Expectations have evolved a little more from boyish expectations to adult seeker expectations. Expectations are all attachments to an imagine future and self. They will not serve you, and will hinder you. Let them go. If they pop up, drop them.
Expectations make the imaginary future and self appear real. They are hindrances, got it !
This process, is simply about seeing the illusion of the separate self. It is not a quick fix, a path to super peace, bliss, oneness. It is about the simple Truth. The core delusion.

Are you truly ready for that?
Yes, I really want to see through the illusion of the separate self. I am all set and ready for that.

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cosmiK
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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:37 pm

Okay Sanjay,

let's get started.
A great sense of frustration arises when ever the seeking starts.
There is an Impulse... we can call it the impulse to Awaken. Then there are thoughts about seeking, and there is frustration. Drop the thoughts, and burn in that impulse, burn in that frustration. Do you see it is all just happening, and there is noone there it is happening to?
I am an obsessive thinker and I have been believing that I can think my way through this illusion
Watch your thoughts come and go. Is there a thinker of thoughts? Thoughts arise... do they arise to anyone? Try to choose a thought, can you? Can thoughts think? Can thoughts see through illusions?
breaking my head over them for days on end sometimes and the seeing through the separate self has not happened yet
there are thoughts, sensations, a sense of being. there are sensations of seeing, and thoughts about a 'separate self' and 'separate self not being seen through yet'. do you see that there is no actual separate self anywhere to be found?

Respond to the above questions as well as this statement. What do you feel when you read this. Don't write lengthy, just simple and visceral response to digest this statement.

There is NO You. There is NO self. There never was, and there never will be.

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Sanjay
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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:04 am

Dear Cosmik,
There is an Impulse... we can call it the impulse to Awaken. Then there are thoughts about seeking, and there is frustration. Drop the thoughts, and burn in that impulse, burn in that frustration. Do you see it is all just happening, and there is noone there it is happening to?
When the impulse arises to seek there seems to be a choice. It does feel as though I am able to weigh the options and decide whether to seek or to do something else. And being able to do them seems to be possible only because of the thoughts that come up. But from a direct experience standpoint there is a seeing of the fingers typing away on the keyboard all by themselves, the eyes are automatically following the alphabets on the screen. There is a knowing now that I am not moving the eyes in order to read the words. There is a knowing of the meaning of the words and sentences that are present on the screen. The eyes are blinking once in a while, but its not a me blinking the eyes.

When you say "Do you see it is all just happening, and there is noone there it is happening to?".

Yes I can see that its all happening. But at the same time thoughts are appearing and I seem to follow the thoughts like a slave. Just a sec. When I was typing the last sentence it suddenly occurred to me that the above statement needs to be altered as follows,

"thoughts are appearing and there seems to be a I/ME which appears to follow the thoughts like a slave"

Is this statement more accurate from a direct experience standpoint Cosmik? Please let me know.

Watch your thoughts come and go. Is there a thinker of thoughts? Thoughts arise... do they arise to anyone? Try to choose a thought, can you? Can thoughts think? Can thoughts see through illusions?
Most thoughts seem to appear out of no where. There's no one thinking them. At the same time some thoughts seem to be voluntary. For instance, I prefer certain pass-times, certain people, certain food over others. So if you were to ask me where does the preference itself come from I guess it comes up either from memory or the preference simply appears upon first sight or first taste. Ok, so I have now arrived at the conclusion that my preference that came up from my memory also belongs to the same category. Yep, my thoughts and preferences are not voluntary at all.

But how can this "ME / I" see that the "ME / I" at the center of it all is simply a fiction like Santa Claus. Intellectually I can see the possibility of the "ME" as well as the "center" being a fiction. But just like the appearance of preferences the sense of "I" too appears all by itself. So how does a non existing "ME" arrive at the experiential realization that I and the sense of "ME" are not real?

I guess I am becoming analytical here. I'm sorry, I do not know how else to do this.
there are thoughts, sensations, a sense of being. there are sensations of seeing, and thoughts about a 'separate self' and 'separate self not being seen through yet'. do you see that there is no actual separate self anywhere to be found?
I am able to intellectually understand that the above statement is true but what do I do about this sense of "I" that still seems to be present at the root of all the experiences?
Respond to the above questions as well as this statement. What do you feel when you read this. Don't write lengthy, just simple and visceral response to digest this statement.

There is NO You. There is NO self. There never was, and there never will be.
When I read the above statement it felt freeing and at the same time scary. life still needs to be lived, deciding to prepare / study for my exams instead of watching TV or playing games still needs to be enforced by an apparent me. If I stop believing that I am not real I may not push myself to succeed in my exams. I may not be able to keep my job because the job needs a ME to be doing several things at the same time. It's scary and freeing at the same time.

Thank you Cosmik : )

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cosmiK
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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:34 am

Sanjay,
There is a knowing now that I am not moving the eyes in order to read the words. There is a knowing of the meaning of the words and sentences that are present on the screen. The eyes are blinking once in a while, but its not a me blinking the eyes.
Knowing appears, only knowing, no knower, no self.
eyes read and sentences are read, only that, no reader, no self.
thoughts appear and describe "you" and "experience"... only thoughts, no thinker, no self.
Is it True? Check.
Yes I can see that its all happening. But at the same time thoughts are appearing and I seem to follow the thoughts like a slave. Just a sec. When I was typing the last sentence it suddenly occurred to me that the above statement needs to be altered as follows,

"thoughts are appearing and there seems to be a I/ME which appears to follow the thoughts like a slave"

Is this statement more accurate from a direct experience standpoint Cosmik? Please let me know.
You can believe drama or you can just SEE, that thoughts are occurring, sensations are occurring, perhaps some visceral emotions are appearing. thoughts cannot follow thoughts like slaves. the thought that you are in bondage is another thought reinforced by strong emotions. but hey... fuck me... Check :)

Everything that is True to your direct Experience, write it here. Honest 150% always in this process. Awakening is Truth, Truth is in Direct Experience. Simpler than the word Simple. Check. Notice. Simply.

Most thoughts seem to appear out of no where. There's no one thinking them. At the same time some thoughts seem to be voluntary. For instance, I prefer certain pass-times, certain people, certain food over others. So if you were to ask me where does the preference itself come from I guess it comes up either from memory or the preference simply appears upon first sight or first taste. Ok, so I have now arrived at the conclusion that my preference that came up from my memory also belongs to the same category. Yep, my thoughts and preferences are not voluntary at all.
Nice experiment. Yes... thoughts appear, and then thoughts about how thoughts appear and what mechanics are behind them. thoughts continue to appear and describe and analyze and focus on and chop up and distinguish between and compare and ....... thus the life in the 'mind'... in thought.

the move to notice thoughts, also just happens. there is no seeker. Check.
But how can this "ME / I" see that the "ME / I" at the center of it all is simply a fiction like Santa Claus.
thoughts cannot see that other thoughts are simply fictitious, but thoughts can appear that say that "the I/me is an illusion like santa claus". regardless of what thoughts say about anything, SEEing is happening, and as soon as you finish this sentence you will surely Check that thoughts are just thoughts. and that the thought "I", or the central thought, is self-referencing to other thoughts and sensations. See simply, Here and Now. Look RIGHT at this "I/me". What is it? Why is it fictitious like Santa? Can you prove this? Don't just agree that it is, show yourself, and then show me
Intellectually I can see the possibility of the "ME" as well as the "center" being a fiction. But just like the appearance of preferences the sense of "I" too appears all by itself. So how does a non existing "ME" arrive at the experiential realization that I and the sense of "ME" are not real?
Whatever it is you are experiencing does not need to be made 'not real'. You just have to simply SEE for yourself that no matter what is experienced, there is ONLY Experience, and thoughts about it, which is also Experience. There is only that seamless Experiencing. To Check that, just check Direct Experience. There is no separate self there at all... just Experience :) Check!

See... isn't Experiential realization already happening every moment?
I am able to intellectually understand that the above statement is true but what do I do about this sense of "I" that still seems to be present at the root of all the experiences?
Okay, so break it down and check. Look Right At this "I". Is it an actual separate self or entity? Don't intellectually understand it, that's not that necessary, simply SEE what's True in your Experience. Is there actually this "I" or is it just habitually called that. Really test it out, directly.

This "at the root of all experiences" sounds a projected. See it for what it is. Is there a separate root and periphery? look at all of these assumptions. are they anything more than assumptions?
When I read the above statement it felt freeing and at the same time scary. life still needs to be lived, deciding to prepare / study for my exams instead of watching TV or playing games still needs to be enforced by an apparent me. If I stop believing that I am not real I may not push myself to succeed in my exams. I may not be able to keep my job because the job needs a ME to be doing several things at the same time. It's scary and freeing at the same time.
those are just feelings. thank them, send them kindness, and ask for the Truth.
There is no "You" that is deciding to study or prepare or watch tv or play games :) there are just thoughts and an Alive Expression. But again... fukme... Check.
There was never a "ME" doing anything at anytime and there never will be Sanjay.... just thoughts about a seamless Life. And again... don't believe me... Check.

The Truth is Simple, yet you may overlook it if you don't want it more than anything else.

Look forward to the next. Great progress so far, but get more in to the simplicity, directness and straightforward clarityness of the Here and Now. Less analytics. Let the thoughts follow from a clear exploration of your Experience.

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Sanjay
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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:50 pm

Hi Cosmik,

I had to take a long time to respond because I am having a difficult time with this.
Knowing appears, only knowing, no knower, no self.
eyes read and sentences are read, only that, no reader, no self.
thoughts appear and describe "you" and "experience"... only thoughts, no thinker, no self.
Is it True? Check.
There are thoughts about an "I". The I" thought is just a thought like any other thought like table, cat, water. So it isn't me. But I am present and aware of the knowing, seeing, tasting, hearing and feeling happening. So I am that which is aware of these sensual experiences. The awareness is the knower to whom the knowing is happening am I right?
the move to notice thoughts, also just happens. there is no seeker. Check.
Yes noticing thoughts just happen and later thought comes up and says I am noticing my thoughts.
thoughts cannot see that other thoughts are simply fictitious, but thoughts can appear that say that "the I/me is an illusion like santa claus". regardless of what thoughts say about anything, SEEing is happening, and as soon as you finish this sentence you will surely Check that thoughts are just thoughts. and that the thought "I", or the central thought, is self-referencing to other thoughts and sensations. See simply, Here and Now. Look RIGHT at this "I/me". What is it? Why is it fictitious like Santa? Can you prove this? Don't just agree that it is, show yourself, and then show me
I'm afraid I'm stuck here Cosmik. I very badly want to be able to say that I am as fictitious as Santa or spider man. But the thought "I" which I have already understood to be simply a thought, points to a me which is aware of all these pondering's right? So I am awareness. I am not able to answer any of the other questions you have posed to me because I have identified myself with my awareness at this point. I'm experiencing a lack of clarity with this.

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cosmiK
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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:27 pm

Sanjay,
There are thoughts about an "I". The I" thought is just a thought like any other thought like table, cat, water. So it isn't me. But I am present and aware of the knowing, seeing, tasting, hearing and feeling happening. So I am that which is aware of these sensual experiences. The awareness is the knower to whom the knowing is happening am I right?
Don't ask me if you are Right. Check.

Is there separation between "awareness" and sound?
Is there separation between "awareness" and taste?
Is there separation between "awareness" and thought?
...
Is there separation between "awareness" and Experience? or is Experience just Experience, without a separate 'knower' or 'awareness'?

Is there really an "awareness" or is there just the experience of sensations, thoughts, and sense of being? CHECK.

What happens when you focus on awareness... do you see it, or do you experience other sensations? could it be that there is no "awareness" that is separate from sense streams such as seeing?

Is it possible that seeing sees, hearing hears, feeling feels, all without an experience-er or separate awareness doing it? CHECK.
I'm afraid I'm stuck here Cosmik. I very badly want to be able to say that I am as fictitious as Santa or spider man. But the thought "I" which I have already understood to be simply a thought, points to a me which is aware of all these pondering's right? So I am awareness. I am not able to answer any of the other questions you have posed to me because I have identified myself with my awareness at this point. I'm experiencing a lack of clarity with this.
Okay... look at what those thoughts I/me point to. So, now you say you are awareness. Look at this awareness. Is it a sense of presence/being/aliveness? Is it personal... if so where is the claimant?

If you are awareness, and awareness is aware of other stuff... then what is experiencing that you are awareness?

Is there an awareness of awareness that is aware of awareness that is aware of awareness? ....
where is the "I" or "me" in Awareness?

really ask yourself...
to experience... does there need to be an experience-er?
to perceive... does there really need to be a perceiver?
to be aware of... does there really need to be a separate awareness that is aware of everything?

does there really need to be an "I"/"me"? at all?

think about this less... check your simple experiencing more... whenever and whatever you are doing.

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Sanjay
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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:37 pm

Thanks a lot for your thorough replies Cosmik. They're very meaningful to me.
Is there separation between "awareness" and sound?
Is there separation between "awareness" and taste?
Is there separation between "awareness" and thought?
...
Is there separation between "awareness" and Experience? or is Experience just Experience, without a separate 'knower' or 'awareness'?
Wow substituting the word awareness with experience has made a very huge difference. It seems very difficult for me to do a 180 degree turn and look at Awareness. It also feels hard to pin it down or notice it. But the word experience sounds mundane and intimate. Makes me feel one with whatever it is that I am experiencing.

So when I rephrase your question as follows

Is there separation between "experience" and sound?
There is no sound without the experience of sound. The experience of sound cannot be separated from the sound.

Is there separation between "experience" and taste?
There is no taste without the experience of taste. The experience of taste cannot be separated from the taste.

Is there separation between "experience" and thought?
There is no sound without the experience of thought. The experience of thought cannot be separated from the thought.

But I'm unable to say the same thing about seeing. The sense of separation is strongest in the sense of sight.
Is there really an "awareness" or is there just the experience of sensations, thoughts, and sense of being? CHECK.
There's just the experience of sensations, thoughts, and the sense of being. Got it.
What happens when you focus on awareness... do you see it, or do you experience other sensations? could it be that there is no "awareness" that is separate from sense streams such as seeing?
Yes you're right. I cannot see awareness, I only experience other sensations. There is just the experience of whatever is sensed via the sense streams.
Is it possible that seeing sees, hearing hears, feeling feels, all without an experience-er or separate awareness doing it? CHECK.
Yes the experience of seeing, hearing, feeling happens all the time regardless of whether there is this "I" thought or whether the sense of being "me the experiencer" is present or not. The experiencer comes up later and says I saw, I heard, I felt.
Okay... look at what those thoughts I/me point to. So, now you say you are awareness. Look at this awareness. Is it a sense of presence/being/aliveness? Is it personal... if so where is the claimant?
Awareness is the conscious experience of seeing, the conscious sense of being, of existing, of being alive. It isn't personal in the sense that it isn't my doing. It is simply here regardless of whether I am conscious of its presence or not. The claimant arises as a thought and says I am awareness. A little later the claimant may say I am frustrated, or I am the driver and so on. I can see that thought identifies with anything and everything.
If you are awareness, and awareness is aware of other stuff... then what is experiencing that you are awareness?
Is there an awareness of awareness that is aware of awareness that is aware of awareness? ....

where is the "I" or "me" in Awareness?
Well, sometimes when I am not lost in thoughts, I become aware of being aware. During such times I am feel one with awareness knowing that I am aware (self aware). If I stay with it for sometime its brings about a felt sense of integration, liveliness and joy. Everything becomes more alive and vivid. Its a beautiful experience. The afterglow of this experience lasts for a few days. But it almost always happens accidentally. I have been able to recreate the experience sometimes but it doesn't work all the time. Most other times I'm usually lost in thoughts.
really ask yourself...
to experience... does there need to be an experience-er?
to perceive... does there really need to be a perceiver?
to be aware of... does there really need to be a separate awareness that is aware of everything?

does there really need to be an "I"/"me"? at all?

think about this less... check your simple experiencing more... whenever and whatever you are doing.
When I check my simple experience right now I see a lot of things happening without a ME as an experiencer, perceiver or a doer. Breathing is happening, my hand is moving the mouse horizontally and my eyes are following the cursor on the laptop screen vertically. So yes it seems possible for everything to function perfectly after taking me out of the picture completely. In fact life will run much more smoothly without my interference or hindrance.

But the conviction that I do not exist is still not 100%. How do I get to the 100%. Do I continue to keep looking, feeling, hearing into direct experience until the conviction that there is no ME in direct experience is hammered in permanently? How do I experience this from a gut level?

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Sanjay
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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:18 pm

Sorry for posting this without waiting for your response. But I felt I must share this with you.

As per your instruction I narrowed down my focus into my present experience and I was simply noticing the thoughts, feeling, emotions, sights, sounds and sensations occur and pass. Suddenly I became aware of the sense of me and I decided to stare down at it. As I was staring directly at it, it occurred to me that if I can stare / look at the sense of me, that could only mean I am not that sense of me. So I must be whatever it is that is staring at the sense of me. So I turned to look at what was staring at the sense of me and found nothing was looking. It was a very freeing experience. But it dissipated quickly.

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Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:36 pm

Wow substituting the word awareness with experience has made a very huge difference. It seems very difficult for me to do a 180 degree turn and look at Awareness. It also feels hard to pin it down or notice it. But the word experience sounds mundane and intimate. Makes me feel one with whatever it is that I am experiencing.
Sanjay... words are words... regardless of any words... there is an experiencing that is always occurring... like the experiencing of this sentence being read and read and read and read. can you see that as you read this sentence (now read it very slowly) that there is no separate reader or experiencer or seer, but just an experience of reading the sentence? if whatever experience arises + though pops up to say "i feel the experiencer", can you see that this is just another experience... so basically... there is NO experience-er apart from the Experience. Carry this simple question throughout your whole day:
- is there an experience-er apart from the Experience? or is that also just Experience...so.... really... there is ONLY this Experiencing.
But I'm unable to say the same thing about seeing. The sense of separation is strongest in the sense of sight.
So then let this be your exercise. Pick a few objects. Look at them.
Is there a separate seer?
Is there a separate experience-er?
or are you just separating vision and some other sensation... perhaps the sensation of feeling ('body' / 'head')?
find this 'sense of separation' you speak of... drop the label "sense of separation" and see if there is ANY separation in Experience?
Do you see that no matter what you say about seeing, there is no ACTUAL separation apart from your conceptualization of it?
There's just the experience of sensations, thoughts, and the sense of being. Got it.
Make sure this is not an agreement, but a confirmation from Right Here, Right Now, in Experience.
Yes you're right. I cannot see awareness, I only experience other sensations. There is just the experience of whatever is sensed via the sense streams.
Right... "awareness" is synonymous with "Experience" ... yet in many traditions, people reify this awareness as something separate and so seeker start to create it in their minds. There is no awareness separate from Experience, and no experience-er whatsoever, and if there seems to or feels to be... it is ALSO just Experience... so there is only this Experience... only This. Again. CHECK. Whatever I say here, TEST it out until it is crystal clear and keep testing it by simply LOOKing and simply SEEing... in your Direct Experience. Apply this all day every day always.
Yes the experience of seeing, hearing, feeling happens all the time regardless of whether there is this "I" thought or whether the sense of being "me the experiencer" is present or not. The experiencer comes up later and says I saw, I heard, I felt.
Sanjay! BINGO! Perfect Insight!
BUT..
does the 'experience-er' come up? and does this experience-er say anything?
is it not just another sensation, perhaps a sense of being, and then a THOUGHT "I am yada dada"?
Keep it simple with respect to direct Experience. CHECK.
Awareness is the conscious experience of seeing, the conscious sense of being, of existing, of being alive. It isn't personal in the sense that it isn't my doing. It is simply here regardless of whether I am conscious of its presence or not. The claimant arises as a thought and says I am awareness. A little later the claimant may say I am frustrated, or I am the driver and so on. I can see that thought identifies with anything and everything.
Simply, there is an Experiencing... always... like the Experiencing of this sentence.
Is there a claimant that arises Sanjay? or is there just a shifting Experience and a THOUGHT about a "claimant"?
Is there a claimant that says "I am frustrated"? or is there just a THOUGHT that says "I am frustrated"?
THIS IS A KEY DIFFERENCE. CHECK. Does a claimant actually arise and exist?

Yes... THOUGHTS are self-referencing, and usually use the self-referencing center of "I"/"me". What does it reference to? Experience. THOUGHTS also are Experience. That's it. There is only this Experience.
Well, sometimes when I am not lost in thoughts, I become aware of being aware. During such times I am feel one with awareness knowing that I am aware (self aware). If I stay with it for sometime its brings about a felt sense of integration, liveliness and joy. Everything becomes more alive and vivid. Its a beautiful experience. The afterglow of this experience lasts for a few days. But it almost always happens accidentally. I have been able to recreate the experience sometimes but it doesn't work all the time. Most other times I'm usually lost in thoughts.
There are many experiences. Regardless. There is no experience-er.
WHO is lost in thoughts?
WHO is 'aware of being aware'?
No matter what happens, how awesome or lost the experience is Sanjay... is there a separate self? Is there a YOU in it?
But the conviction that I do not exist is still not 100%. How do I get to the 100%. Do I continue to keep looking, feeling, hearing into direct experience until the conviction that there is no ME in direct experience is hammered in permanently? How do I experience this from a gut level?
How do you get to where you already are Sanjay?
WHO is going WHERE?
Looking is happening, seeing is happening, feeling is happening, hearing is happening, convictions of this and that are happening... all without a "me" :)
Just Simply See Sanjay... there is no Sanjay in any of this :)
As I was staring directly at it, it occurred to me that if I can stare / look at the sense of me, that could only mean I am not that sense of me.
Good. There is only Experience... no experience-er.
So I must be whatever it is that is staring at the sense of me. So I turned to look at what was staring at the sense of me and found nothing was looking. It was a very freeing experience. But it dissipated quickly.
I think you are still under the assumption there has to be a looker or perciever... what if there is no-thing or noone looking, just looking happening.

What if there is just the Experience.

LOOK DEEPLY, and use these pointers and my questions BUT...

Write me back simply... do not respond to all questions this time. Write me back simply and tell me where you are in a few words. Let's reset this flow of conversation with simplicity.

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cosmiK
Posts: 1013
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:15 pm

Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby cosmiK » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:40 pm

Also Sanjay... to add...
it seems like you are looking to conclude "if I'm not X... then I must be Y"...
what happens when "I" is dropped completely?
What if there is no identity?
isn't identity just another THOUGHT & LABEL put on to Experiencing?
Does Experience need an "I" or "me" or "Identification?"
Is any of it Personal?
if so ... where is the claimant?

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Sanjay
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:13 pm

Re: Please help me see through the illusion

Postby Sanjay » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:04 pm

Dear Cosmik,

You have caught me redhanded ! You were right about me trying to conclude that "if I'm not X... then I must be Y". I had this idea that if I am not my thoughts/feelings then I must be that which is looking at my thoughts and feelings.
it seems like you are looking to conclude "if I'm not X... then I must be Y"...
what happens when "I" is dropped completely?
What if there is no identity?
isn't identity just another THOUGHT & LABEL put on to Experiencing?
Does Experience need an "I" or "me" or "Identification?"
Is any of it Personal?
if so ... where is the claimant?
Later when you asked me the question what happens when "I" is dropped completely?
What if there is no identity?
it felt like the rug was pulled away hard from under my feet.

This came as a surprise to me because many books I have read state "You are that", "That art thou", etc, etc. That's the reason why I was trying to conclude "if I'm not X... then I must be Y". But here you are indirectly telling me "I am neither this nor that". I didn't expected this at all. Which means to say "I am neither my thought/feelings nor am I the one that is looking at them". For a few moments I found myself with absolutely no foothold to stand on.

Do you think its ok for me to spend a day or two to let this sink in Cosmik? I feel I need to spend some time with this new perspective.


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