You can start here :)

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
dreamer
Posts: 1128
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:33 pm
Location: dk
Contact:

You can start here :)

Postby dreamer » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:18 pm

If you want to look I am willing point to what to look at.
Give an introduction and we will get started.

Vivi

User avatar
Not me
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:57 pm

Re: You can start here :)

Postby Not me » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:12 am

Hi, I really appreciate the opportunity to ask these questions and be assisted with my quest to no-where! :)
Many thanks in advance for taking the time to work with me.
Please forgive my cynical and probing nature (although from what I understand, it's not me doing it, and there's no one to forgive!) ;)
Although to be honest, it's statements like these which have been confusing the hell out of me!

I'll start with a brief version of “my story” so you have an idea of how I arrived here.

My childhood was troubled, and I left home and school at 15. (I'm now 31) Iv'e been addicted to all sorts over the years and never used to talk about my life at all.
I used to cover up feelings of depression, hopelessness, inadequacy, shame and even thoughts of suicide with drugs, solvents and alcohol.
However, around 4 years ago, something happened, I have no idea what, but something changed.

Out of nowhere I stopped watching t.v, went vegetarian, and started reading tons of books. It all just happened!
The way I felt inside didn't change much. But it was the way I felt inside which drove me to this search so I totally see that is has all been necessary.
However, I still have the residue of so called anxiety and depression in my daily experience. Iv'e been learning to live with it but it's not exactly the most liberating way to be!
Never the less, rather than running away from my pain, I found myself trying to find out if there was anything I could do in order to feel joy and happiness again, without drugs and alcohol.
I found myself studying nutrition, psychology, religion, spirituality, metaphysics, ancient history and all manor of occult and esoteric subjects.
I recently found (or it found me) non-dualism.

I’ve been looking into Bob adamson, john wheeler, jeffery eisen, tony parsons and various others. I totally understand what they are all pointing to, but it hasn't done anything to my sense of me or the way it feels to be me.
Reading books and web pages has been very good in taking me to the riverbank, but I don't seem to be drinking the waters of freedom just yet!
I was thinking of trying to find a teacher, or at least someone who I could meet in person so that a dialogue could occur, then I stumbled upon this site and thought I'd give it a go. :)

There are a few very popular phrases that people use in non-duality which are delivered in such a way that just doesn't cut through to me.
Examples are "All questions and problems are for the person" and "this is it and nothing else" as well as "Can you find an I?" "are you aware right now?"
I see what they are pointing to, but it's not enough to cause an awakening unfortunately!

Even when taking a step back into non conceptual awareness, the mind or a me has to get involved in order to tell itself to be quiet! And even then, what is it that chooses whether to allow thinking and labelling or not if it's not a me?

Even without the labelling and story telling, I still find no profound "presence -awareness" that has always been here and is pure love or joy underneath the overlays.
Granted I cannot find an I, but there is perception going on, and the perceiver takes itself to be “me”
I cant find any light outside of the limited rage of my eyes, but I know it's there, so does it mean anything to say If I can't find a me then it doesn't exist?
I know there is a feeling of "me" here now. Bringing the seeker relentlessly back to things like "are you aware right now?" "well thats it" doesn't seem to do it for me.
I say yes this is it, and yes I’m aware, and what? I feel the same, I’ve realised nothing new. If all things are awareness and are appearing in awareness, where can I find some direct proof of this claim?

So you see the tangle I’m in with the non dual concept!
I think I understand intellectually that this body and mind are temporary formations appearing in empty space,
and all this content is dancing in a kind of energy sea which is one big empty but lively no-thing. But that doesn't change the fact that I take myself to be a separate me who finds it a chore to socialise and show any love or affection!

There seems to be an I who has preferences, makes decisions, mistakes and choices.
Who can prove this I doesn't exist? Without thought, I still sense the I-ness. So I take "me" to be an energetic body of some sort that cannot be seen, but I don't hold on to that as a belief as i'm really not sure what I am!

It seems that without the I, there would be no survival. Is it a case that it was important in our evolution?
Perhaps this I concept is important but there comes a time to shed it in order to fully enjoy life? And who enjoys it?
What senses the pain or the enjoyment? And why does it appear to be in a localised individualised point of consciousness?
Non dual teachers say all suffering comes from the sense of a separate I. What is it that senses the separate I if not some kind of entity? If getting rid of the I is gonna stop my suffering then bring it on!! :D


I guess what I'm hoping to get out of this is the so called natural state of love and compassion that has seemingly never been there in my experience.
I could point to the story of my childhood and say I’m unhappy because of this and that, but is it relevant? Was the story important? It must have shaped who I am today, but can it all be dropped in an instant of realising I am not a person with a story?
Iv'e always felt uneasy when people say "all is love" I would think thats all well and good for you to say but wheres the proof?!
It's not all love in my experience! I feel totally detached from the world, far from in love with it! Is this self induced?
If so, who is the self doing it? I thought there is no me doing anything? :)

You can probably sense the frustration in my words!

On noticing the frustration, I can change it to - there is a feeling of frustration - rather than it's happening to me, but whats the difference?
There is still frustration happening whether it's to a person or not, it's still experienced and it's still very real.
Perhaps I still need to do a load of "shadow work" to sort out all the false beliefs, or something!
And what about dietary allergies or chemical imbalances in the brain?
Are these to be attributed as manifestations of the feeling of separateness? Is my constant lack of energy from feeling separate?
I’ve been"depressed" for as long as I can remember so I hope to move beyond it into unconditional love and one-ness.
Is there anything that can prevent a person from becoming liberated? such as depression or mental illness?

So many questions but I don't wish to bombard you any further so I'll leave it there.
Thank you so much for your time
Jay :)

User avatar
dreamer
Posts: 1128
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:33 pm
Location: dk
Contact:

Re: You can start here :)

Postby dreamer » Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:12 am

Hi Jay

Thank you for you detailed description of your story, doubts and expectations. I am not going to answer ANY of your questions - it seems you have had answers enough, what you seem to need is to look. Therefore I will ask you to put all of the above mentioned aside. We can leave it there, at the top of this conversation. Later we can go back to what is in there, if it feels right to do so.

I have some expectations to this conversation. First both of us must give at least one reply everyday each. If it occasionally is not possible to do that, I would like you to tell that in advance if possible - as will I. Second I would ask you NOT to listen to or read or wathch anything about non-duality or other topics alike as long as we work here, since it could further the confusion - it is not knowledge but knowing that is in focus.
Also you may need to bare with me, since english is not my mothertongue and I am not perfect in grammar and spelling so I need you to see beyond that. On the other hand if you don't understand what I ask, don't hesitate telling. Last but not least: Be as honest as you can. 'Right' answers are not what you are looking for but true answers, whatever it may be.

If you can agree on that we can start :)

What is 'I'? Does 'I' exist? If so, where is 'I' to be found?
Look! What are the answers to these questions when you put aside all you assume, have been told and have read.
What do you KNOW?

Warm regards Vivi

User avatar
Not me
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:57 pm

Re: You can start here :)

Postby Not me » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:43 pm

Hi Vivi

Glad to be working with you.
The expectations are agreed and your English seems fine to me, so I think we'll be ok. :)

Ok, here's what "I" came up with:
What is 'I'?
I is a word which we use to point to "ourselves" instead of referring in the third person, or as a body and mind or formation of energy.. It simplifies things for the sake of conversation. It could also be looked at as a thought which arises in order to claim ownership over an experience or item. We have become accustomed to this word over the years and take the word to mean "all that I am" or this body, mind and awareness.
Does 'I' exist?
As a single point of reference I would say no.
where is 'I' to be found?
It would be found as the sum total of all that we take ourselves to be. So it exists in the physical realm as a manifested form, with the capacity to use thought which seems to be an unmanifested quality,but a real quality never the less. Real as in, directly experienced by "me"

This is what came up without thinking too much into it.

User avatar
dreamer
Posts: 1128
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:33 pm
Location: dk
Contact:

Re: You can start here :)

Postby dreamer » Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:05 pm

Great Jay!
I is a word which we use to point to "ourselves" instead of referring in the third person, or as a body and mind or formation of energy.. It simplifies things for the sake of conversation. It could also be looked at as a thought which arises in order to claim ownership over an experience or item. We have become accustomed to this word over the years and take the word to mean "all that I am" or this body, mind and awareness.
Here you say 'I' is a word or thought.
It would be found as the sum total of all that we take ourselves to be. So it exists in the physical realm as a manifested form, with the capacity to use thought which seems to be an unmanifested quality,but a real quality never the less. Real as in, directly experienced by "me"
Here you say that 'I' has the capacity to use thought.

Now - how can a thought have capacity to use thought? If I is a word/a thought how can it also be a physical manifestation and have an unmanifested quality? What is it that you know about 'I'? Peel of every single bit of believe.

Enjoy :)

Vivi

User avatar
Not me
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:57 pm

Re: You can start here :)

Postby Not me » Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:51 am

I see what you're saying.
I guess there's nothing I actually know about I. But who am "I" referring to as I? what or who is doing the referring?
This is the headspin I always come back to!
The "I" from an intuitive view is simply a word used as a reference. I don't think for one moment that I''m a reference, therefore an "I"
But I do seem to have this experience of typing these words now with the feeling of "me" which is what this word I points to. It points to the experience and sensations of sensing and living as a human person. All this equals I. This seems to be coming up.

User avatar
dreamer
Posts: 1128
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:33 pm
Location: dk
Contact:

Re: You can start here :)

Postby dreamer » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:38 pm

Hello Jay!

Good!

'I' does not exist as an entity. It is a though construct.
Typing happens, but no one makes it happen. 'I am doing the typing' is a thought construct. There is NO I and therefore no ME either.

What happens in you when you read this?

For one day look at typing when it happens and see if you can find any 'I' doing it. Let me know what you find.

User avatar
Not me
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:57 pm

Re: You can start here :)

Postby Not me » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:45 pm

Is it the case that there is an intention made by "me" what ever "me" is, and then the body, mind instruments act out that intention? Of course this is not "me" typing, but the typing has been caused by my intent. Now I intend to put my arm up - arm goes up. Not me "doing it" but me intending it perhaps?

User avatar
Not me
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:57 pm

Re: You can start here :)

Postby Not me » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:48 pm

I just wonder how we can be so sure that there is no such entity? How can we be sure that there is no "I" centre in the brain? the pineal gland seems to be a good candidate. It's known as "the seat of the soul" I guess this kind of resistance is coming up. :)

User avatar
Not me
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:57 pm

Re: You can start here :)

Postby Not me » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:50 pm

However, I will be paying close attention to thought and intention. It seems there is definitely an entity or ability to formulate an intent, and then the mind, body and universe work together and make that intent a reality.

User avatar
dreamer
Posts: 1128
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:33 pm
Location: dk
Contact:

Re: You can start here :)

Postby dreamer » Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:52 pm

Oh Jay - So fine questions!!!
Just keep the close look on thoughts and intentions!

Warm regards
Vivi

User avatar
Not me
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:57 pm

Re: You can start here :)

Postby Not me » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:38 am

Iv'e noticed that an Intention is itself a thought. And is usually formed in response to something else, therefore it cannot be separated from the life process and doesn't seem to be an isolated event caused by a me. Although the me would like to take credit for it. But that still leaves a something trying to take credit, even if it isn't a me.

Questions:
1. Is it just thought which arises assuming credit?
2.Iv'e noticed that if attention isn't given to thoughts, they don't hold much weight, so to speak. But what is this mechanism of not giving attention? you could say who decided to give or not give attention to thoughts. There still seems to be a choice maker that can be influenced by thought.

User avatar
dreamer
Posts: 1128
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:33 pm
Location: dk
Contact:

Re: You can start here :)

Postby dreamer » Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:23 am

Hi Jay
Iv'e noticed that an Intention is itself a thought. And is usually formed in response to something else, therefore it cannot be separated from the life process and doesn't seem to be an isolated event caused by a me. Although the me would like to take credit for it. But that still leaves a something trying to take credit, even if it isn't a me.
Very good observations!

Is it just thought which arises assuming credit?
Yes, isn't it!
Iv'e noticed that if attention isn't given to thoughts, they don't hold much weight, so to speak.
Super!

But what is this mechanism of not giving attention? you could say who decided to give or not give attention to thoughts. There still seems to be a choice maker that can be influenced by thought.
Now look closely at choice. What happens, how does choices come up? Is there any choice making'? Is there a choice maker? What comes first choice or thoughts or? Look carefully.

Take your time.
Vivi

User avatar
Not me
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:57 pm

Re: You can start here :)

Postby Not me » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:51 pm

I will look very carefully at choice!

One quick thing before hand - What or who is it that speaks? If it isn't a me, or some kind of central intelligence connected to the body, mind and universe, what is it that decides to speak?

Thoughts come up on their own, and I could't tell you what thoughts are coming next. However, I can decide to say a word in my head so to speak, which means then I can tell you whats coming next. Or I can decide that I will say something in one second and then just top prove that I'm in control of this particular function, I can decide not to say it instead. I find it very hard to see that this is happening without a command from me.

User avatar
Not me
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:57 pm

Re: You can start here :)

Postby Not me » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:01 pm

I think there does seem to be the ability for "me" as a unit of intelligence to give commands, choose where or what to focus on, and say or think words. This "me" which is just a label really, and not what we have taken it to be, does still simply point to the capability to talk, consciously think (i.e - i'm now going to think about plans for such and such, or i'm going to sit down and think about something in particular. This is conscious and chosen thought rather than thought that just comes up on it's own. They seem to be very different. One can be chosen and started/stopped on command, and the other is just automatic and impersonal. So me, is a thought, but it's a thought which relates to the processing function that we all have as an individuated and seemingly separate point of consciousness.


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests