The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I believe Self is a belief about my experience. Maybe it is a belief that experience is mine. There is something that is animating this body and my mind seems to need to define it and to express it to people. There is an expression happening and it is being carried on a wave of all that exists but for some reason there is this need to own it and to

What are you looking for at LU?
I'm looking to see through all that isn't true about what I am. Even though I understand conceptually and have had experiences where I felt that I was not confined to the body or that I was connected to everything beyond the body I have never been able to drop the idea that there is a self that needs to control everything. It is frustrating being in the world because the words I speak are always a bit wrong and then people just hear them through their own lenses of interpretation. I'm really tired of feeling like I have to explain myself or protect myself or justify myself or define my self. It feels exhausting.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect that the conversation would point out places where I am stuck in the process of awakening. I feel this energetic contraction in my body and it wont release. Maybe the right words would help me stop feeling like I need to restrict it or control it.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have tried to seek in religion but was brought up without it and never could believe in any dogma or deity worship or following gurus. I have been seeking for 30 years and meditating off and on for 12 years. About a year ago I was seeing a therapist and was practicing DBT and it hit me that if I could just reframe my thoughts and my past, then what was real? This led me to nonduality and to Buddhist frameworks that I had been avoiding because I felt they were too impersonal and I had a fear of emptiness because of an intense psychedelic experience I had as a teenager. Until recently I thought god was something outside of me but now I've had experiences in my meditation where I felt the self expand and I felt I dissolved into everything but there is still the self there. I have had energetic shifts, feelings of expansion and lightness and now there is this constant vibration, buzzing in my body and I shake sometimes. There have been continuous muscle spasms around my belly, chest and legs and my head is always tingling. These sensations intensified after attending a vipassana retreat a few months ago and just keep intensifying and becoming more frequent.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

Hi,

Welcome to LU.

Happy to be present with you here in this inquiry.

What shall I call you?

-Becca

Hi Becca,
Glad to be here with you. Thank you for responding to my post. You can call me Stacey. Looking forward to working this out with you.

Great, Stacey.

I'm really tired of feeling like I have to explain myself or protect myself or justify myself or define my self. It feels exhausting.

Yep, the charade of a separate self IS utterly exhausting.

Where is this self that needs protecting?
When you look for ‘me’, right now, what is found? Is there an entity in need of justification? Or is there just a story trying to justify a story?

I feel this energetic contraction in my body and it wont release

Where in the body is this centered?

There is something that is animating this body and my mind seems to need to define it and to express it to people

Yes. Thoughts will do that… but outside of thinking about it, is there any need to define or explain this something?

Much love,
Becca

Hi Becca,
Thanks so much for the questions. here's my answers.

Where is this self that needs protecting?
When you look for ‘me’, right now, what is found? Is there an entity in need of justification? Or is there just a story trying to justify a story?

I keep writing things and I don't know how to talk about it. It is hard to find words that are true. I sit here and my being feels like a amorphous, vibrating, flowing energy and it isn't really contained in my body but it seems concentrated here. It seems like there is something localized in the vicinity that is me. Its not my personality but it is what I am. But that also isn't the thing trying to justify itself. It is the personality trying to justify and define things. I don't know how to live like an amorphous energy though.

Where in the body is this centered?

My energetic contractions are in my belly and my chest. I feel like they are going to let go soon because I keep having constant muscle spasms deep in my belly and under my diaphragm as well as other more usual places all over. it is so odd. I had a very vivid, very pointed dream the other night related to shame woke up and my body was just shaking to my core. It felt like so much deep healing was happening but it is like the holding patterns in my muscles are just actually physically stuck because of what I was believing about myself. but when I feel the body right now the contractions are still there, though I think not as much.

Yes. Thoughts will do that… but outside of thinking about it, is there any need to define or explain this something?

I guess I've been defining myself and justifying or at least explaining myself for so long I just can't seem to stop doing it. maybe its necessary sometimes. (like right now) but I'll be sitting in my house having imaginary conversations to imaginary people just explaining my point of view about whatever and rehearsing for some performance and its just ridiculous. Then I go have the interaction and it all goes out the window anyway, so its just all that wasted energy. Then I tend to ruminate afterward too. My personality structure is often neurotic and I actually annoy myself with it pretty frequently. but I'm thinking that that is not what is animating this body either. I feel like in this inquiry I'm trying to see two separate selves instead of seeing none. Its like there is one who sees the personality and then the personality. Am I trying to see through both here?

Hi Stacey,

The truth is there is no separate self. The body already knows this, and is working through its natural process. There is nothing to be done about that, although if the sensations get really intense some time in nature can support with balancing. So let’s set that to the side for the moment, and let me know if anything shifts energetically during the course of this conversation.


So lets work through this:

It is hard to find words that are true. I sit here and my being feels like a amorphous, vibrating, flowing energy and it isn't really contained in my body but it seems concentrated here. It seems like there is something localized in the vicinity that is me. Its not my personality but it is what I am. But that also isn't the thing trying to justify itself. It is the personality trying to justify and define things. I don't know how to live like an amorphous energy though.

Yes, words are labels.

What about the flowing energy says it is 'my being'? Besides proximity... if it isn't contained, is it personal? Can you control NOT experiencing life with this amorphous energy?

And about seeing that the personality is separate from the body... let's investigate the thing, this separate thing, that is trying to justify itself. Does this thing exist except in thought?

I guess I've been defining myself and justifying or at least explaining myself for so long I just can't seem to stop doing it. maybe its necessary sometimes. (like right now) but I'll be sitting in my house having imaginary conversations to imaginary people just explaining my point of view about whatever and rehearsing for some performance and its just ridiculous. Then I go have the interaction and it all goes out the window anyway, so its just all that wasted energy.

Yes, you are seeing that this is all fiction, all story. Even the story that the energy can be wasted is story. Fantasy.

So thoughts are not able to predict what will happen. Are 'you' the thinker of these thoughts?

Hi Becca,

The physical experience does change during inquiry. When I ask how I know the amorphous energy blob is me I feel a contraction in my core and it wants to let go and then muscle spasms start happening all around that contraction and then shaking, then emotions. I feel gratitude for the help and direction you are giving me. I feel like the body wants to let go of something.

What about the flowing energy says it is 'my being'? Besides proximity... if it isn't contained, is it personal? Can you control NOT experiencing life with this amorphous energy?

I feel like it is simply my experience. I don't think I could have a different experience of reality but I could choose to put my awareness here or go into thought and the personality. Even in daily life it is there in the background. It seems like my being because if the sense of that energy were gone it would just be hearing, smell,taste, touch, sight, thoughts. I don't know what makes energy blobs more like me than any of that. It just feels like the energy is animating or maybe even forming my body. I don't think I am my body though so it doesn't make sense to feel that way either. Maybe I am what is keeping my body in form?

And about seeing that the personality is separate from the body... let's investigate the thing, this separate thing, that is trying to justify itself. Does this thing exist except in thought?

No. Its clear that the defining and justification is not necessary that is why I think it's annoying. The personality is just a thought

Are 'you' the thinker of these thoughts?

Thoughts are just happening as a reaction. Same as the muscle spasms. Its all body stuff. But I'm using them for inquiry. It seems like thoughts are a stew of inputs and learned responses. Maybe I feel like the energy blob is creating the thoughts and then the mind is thinking them? I don't know. I'm stuck here . I feel confused. I'll come back to it.

Btw this is so freaking helpful. Thank you.

So ask the amorphous blob two things:
1 what is it protecting?
2 does it feel safe to let go?

It is unlikely to respond in words, it could be images or just a sensation. Sometimes just a knowing (which is different from thinking) will arise. So be present to whatever comes.

Also, please repeat a few times “there is no separate self at all, never has been, never will be” and just write what arises… in the body… in thought… emotions… what comes up?

Maybe I feel like the energy blob is creating the thoughts and then the mind is thinking them?

A good exploration… sit for a while and just observe:
where do thoughts come from?
where do they go to?

Becca,

So ask the amorphous blob two things:
1 what is it protecting?
2 does it feel safe to let go?

I realize the blob is just a sensation. I was confused for two reasons. I thought I was a feeling of tingling and pulsing was me somehow but other sense experiences weren't for some reason. Why am I not hearing or smell? It doesn't make sense. The second reason is that even when I feel my awareness is expanded outside of my body, it has been centered there in my belly. I tried moving my awareness to my feet and I was able to center it there so I know that isn't always true. my awareness is simply where I put it and experiencing what is going on there.

What is the blob trying to protect?

The sensation of energy blob was just intense in my abdomen because of the contraction. There is a feeling of needing to control whatever is happening. I think there is a feeling that I wouldn't exist. So it's the contraction trying to protect from non existence then I'm feeling a all this energy and I realize now I was identifying it as a self.

There is no separate self at all, never has been, never will be”

It seems like it wouldn't be possible for someone to know that they don't exist, never existed and would never exist. But I know the separate self doesn't exist (in my thoughts). Every way I think of it I keep seeing it isn't there.
My contraction just released further. There was fear coming up and a bunch of shaking and then this big release in the body.

Where do thoughts come from? Where do they go?

Thoughts come from stories and memories and body processes reacting with the environment
They really come from everything. They seem to disappear but some must leave memories that influence further thoughts. Memory maybe has a bigger influence on thoughts than the environment. Most thoughts are completely irrelevant.

my awareness is simply where I put it and experiencing what is going on there.

Do you have control over where ‘awareness’ is?

There is a feeling of needing to control whatever is happening. I think there is a feeling that I wouldn't exist. So it's the contraction trying to protect from non existence

Is this still present? The need to control? The fear of non existence?

They seem to disappear but some must leave memories that influence further thoughts. Memory maybe has a bigger influence on thoughts than the environment.

Are memory thoughts different from ‘regular’ thoughts?
How is this known?

Most thoughts are completely irrelevant.

What evaluates and judges which are relevant or not? Is this ever anything than commentary (another thought) after the fact?

Becca,

Okay, I'm a bit exhausted today but I'm going to do my best. These inquiries take me such a long time.

Do you have control over where ‘awareness’ is?

I'm not sure if I'm equating awareness with attention. If I'm not paying attention to an experience it seems to disappear, so I can move that wherever I want. But there is the overall awareness of just being that remains constant.

Is this still present? The need to control? The fear of non existence?

It definitely feels less but I'm not sure it's gone

Are memory thoughts different from ‘regular’ thoughts?
How is this known?

Any thought that I remember or that sticks in my mind will make or alter another thought and the thoughts that I don't pay attention to would just disappear. Thoughts create more thoughts when they feel important in some way like with having beliefs, planning, or learning. This is known through observing the thoughts that make more thoughts and then ones that disappear.

What evaluates and judges which are relevant or not? Is this ever anything than commentary (another thought) after the fact?

I feel like my mind is choosing to follow or not follow thoughts. Its always just thoughts on top of thoughts. There can be emotions and physical reactions to the thoughts that makes them seem relevant too but it may be the other way around. So maybe neurological chemicals and signals making thoughts come with more intensity or seem more important.

I thought I was getting this, but I do feel like I'm choosing even though my belief is that everything is just a cascade of occurrences. Its like there are an infinite number of factors directing thoughts and actions but my brain feels like it's choosing.

As always, thank you. Goodnight Becca.

Hi Stacey,

These inquiries take me such a long time.

Ah, yes, so now let’s talk about how to look.

There is a big difference between knowing that there is no separate self and seeing that there is no separate self.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:
• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for awhile.
Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling every thing into objects and is embellishing them with stories about what they are!
Give it some time…
Then, stop watching the objects as labelled objects. Just look at the seeing itself. Observe the pure process of seeing. This is direct experience.

So just as when initially looking into body sensations there was a need to feel into what is here, continue to do that with some of these other questions that would generally be more philosophical. Looking here now, for what is.

I feel like my mind is choosing to follow or not follow thoughts. Its always just thoughts on top of thoughts

So look closely:
Where exactly is this “mind”?
Where is the chooser?

Not as a thought. But right now in direct, raw experience.

I'm not sure if I'm equating awareness with attention

Good. That means you’re getting close.
Now test it:
Right now move attention to your feet.
Now to your breath.
Now to a sound in the room.

Who moved it??

If a thought pops up saying “I did”… catch it.
That’s after the movement! It’s commentary.
Like a sports announcer yelling “He scores!” after the goal has already gone in.

So what’s happening?
Just movement.
Just shifts.
No one doing it.

That’s enough for now, but we are laying a foundation to look at this feeling of being the chooser…

Much love,
Becca

Hi Becca,

Good morning, afternoon or evening. I don't know where in the world you are. I'm in the US so it's Thanksgiving Day and I'm thankful for you and your inquiries.

So look closely:
Where exactly is this “mind”?
Where is the chooser?

There are just thoughts. That is all of my experience of mind. When I try to stop thoughts they keep appearing and I can distract with other thoughts but that is definitely after the fact. It's an exercise of more thoughts. I don't know what is choosing.

When the attention moves from my feet, to breath to sound it doesn't feel like anything is moving it but there is a thought 'move to the feet ' ect that I think before the movement happens. I tried just experiencing without doing the exercise and then attention would just move wherever it wanted without having to think about it. To do what you asked required me to think about what you were asking but I cant say for certain that thought was the cause of the movement.

Hope you have a lovely day.
Stacey

Hi Stacey,

Yes I am in US as well. Maine for this holiday weekend… lots of cooking yesterday. :)

When I try to stop thoughts

Can you? Are they controllable in this way? How does this work?

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.
2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.
3. Then wait for the next thought to come.
4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.
5. Then wait for the next thought to come.
6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought comes in.

This is how to look at thoughts:
Looking how they come and go and
Observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how you go.

I cant say for certain that thought was the cause of the movement.

Precisely!

but there is a thought 'move to the feet ' ect that I think before the movement happens

Okay. You got there, and are seeing a bit of gap here in cause and effect but let’s break this down.

Did the thought move something labeled attention?
Or did it just appear and then movement happened?

Was the thought the originator or was it just another appearance, side-by-side with the shift?

How do you know that the thought “caused” it?

Take a look in real time and see if there is anything but stories after the fact to maintain an illusion of control.

In gratitude,
Becca

Becca,

Good evening. I was able to do quite a bit of watching thoughts and gaps today.

(you were asking about stopping or controlling thoughts)

Can you? Are they controllable in this way? How does this work?

I was trying to say before that I tried to stop and change thoughts for the inquiry and it didn't work. It is just adding thoughts on top of thoughts. The thoughts are appearing and I can't control them. I feel clear on that.

There are gaps that are sometimes extended for a short time between thoughts. I was able to experience this always when I noticed it the thought there would be a space where I was experiencing without thought then another thought would come.

One thing that also happened when I was driving today and doing this 'noticing thoughts' inquiry. There was a point where I realized I was doing actions such as slowing down to let cars pass, changing lanes ect without deciding to do it. It felt as if things were just happening and then the mind was thinking thoughts, then there was the experience of the gaps.

Did the thought move something labeled attention?
Or did it just appear and then movement happened?

Was the thought the originator or was it just another appearance, side-by-side with the shift?

How do you know that the thought “caused” it?

I am stuck on the attention thing. Even in the noticing of thoughts and observing gaps, it feels like me controlling attention. I see that the mover is not the thought 'move to the feet' ect. but something still feels like its controlling and moving to notice and observe. The thought did just appear but it was moved by something that felt like 'me' and I don't know what that is. If something hadn't moved it I wouldn't be doing and inquiry. Also the impulse or intention to observe still feels like it precedes the movement of attention though I see the thought is happening at the same time and not before the shift. I don't feel like it was caused by thought.

Thanks, talk to you tomorrow.