Requesting a guide

[bobalina]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Seeing that there's no separate, independent self, there is only a flow of experience.

What are you looking for at LU?
I think that I have a good cognitive understanding of the illusion of self.
Experientially, there is no strong sense of "I", "me" or "mine". But there is still suffering and sometimes I do feel separate from the world.
And my worry is that I have read too many books and heard too much theory, at the expense of direct experience. I am quite "heady", I like theory and study, but I am not so good at interrogating and trusting my direct experience. Sometimes I am not sure what is my direct experience and what is my expectation or idea about what the experience ought to be.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope that it will give me the guidance I need to be really honest with myself about my experience, and help my disentangle my actual experience from my thoughts / views / expectations about what the experience should be.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I am a Buddhist, practicing within Triratna.
Meditation practice for around 12 years including insight practices and, within the last year, non-dual meditation, which I love.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[poppyseed]

Hi bobalina
(what do you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.

What time zone are you in?
Love
Rali

[bobalina]

Hi bobalina
(what do you want me to call you?)

Bob, please.

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Hi, and yes, please. I'm looking forward to the process, and also a little nervous.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

I’ve read the FAQs.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.

Ok, will do.

What time zone are you in?

I’m in the UK so currently on GMT+1.

[poppyseed]

Hi Bob
Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I’m in the UK so currently on GMT+1.

I'm GMT+2. Perfect :)

Hi, and yes, please. I'm looking forward to the process, and also a little nervous.

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[bobalina]

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I'm not sure. Perhaps some sense of relief. A bit more ease and openness.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I don't expect anything to happen. Just a subtle shift of view, a seeing through the illusion.

3. What do you want not to happen?

Nothing comes to mind. I'm ok with whatever happens.

4. What are you hoping for?

I'm hoping that my curiosity about the "self" will be satisfied. For an experiential felt sense of no self, and an understanding of how that relates to my current sense of there being an awareness that feels like a "witness".

5. What is missing?

Nothing is missing really. There is just a desire to be confident that I've seen through the self illusion.

[poppyseed]

Hi Bob

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Do it a few times. Again the more you uncover, the better starting point we have. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. As usual, honesty will make this work
Love
Rali

[bobalina]

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. … The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. … Is that OK with you?

Yes, very much so. When I read this part of your reply I felt a visceral sense of relief. Something deep within me relaxed. I have indeed been “seeking”, longing, for something that I can’t quite express in words.

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

I looked for the “I” a few times. I did the inquiry while out for a walk and again sitting down indoors.

I looked in the body and its not there, that was obvious. My body is ever-changing, much of what it does is outside of my control or just happens without any sense of my directing it.

I then looked at the feelings, sensations and thoughts, and it is definitely not there. They are not "me". They come and go, there is no “I” making them arise or owning them.

What I do find is a subtle sense of a witness or perhaps a better word for it is awareness. A substrate in which the feelings, sensations and thoughts arise. Is this just consciousness? This sense of awareness/consciousness/witness isn’t controlling or doing things, it is just there noticing them happen.

And I notice that I am not aware of it all the time. When I am daydreaming, busy doing a task, or in deep meditation, there is no sense of it. The times I am aware of it are during the inquiry or other times when I am deliberately thinking about it or looking for it. I notice it then, and add my interpretation i.e. that it seems to be a unique thing, something that is there whenever I look for it. It is not just another thought. I also note that it doesn’t “have” any feelings or preferences, it is a dispassionate observer.

[bobalina]

PS I have just realised something that feels important. This awareness/consciousness/witness that I am finding, and interpreting as "me". It only arises when I think about it ... it arises dependant upon the thoughts. It is not independent or separate from the thoughts. So it can't be "me".

[poppyseed]

Hi Bob

Wonderful!! Thank you for your honesty! It gives me an idea where to point to.
Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:

Looking is finding out what is true in experience. It is a nonverbal action of focusing attention on a target. Thinking is verbal—it is naming experience. Both work together as one mechanism. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory).

So there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


Love
Rali

[bobalina]

So there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing. …
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

Yes, I see the difference and I see that you can only be sure by looking.
I understand that DE is experience of the 5 senses (seeing, hearing, touch etc) plus the arising of thoughts.

Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple….
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

‘Apple’ is just a label, a concept, an idea. It cannot be found in DE/AE. My DE with an actual apple went like this:
Seeing : I saw colours and shapes. I had the feeling that I was looking at a still-life painting or a photograph of an apple – it didn’t seem as 3-dimensional as usual.
Feeling – tingling registering on my fingers when I touched it.
Thoughts arising.

I noticed a tendency to add concepts/ideas/labels to the DE, and for me to start to get involved with the content of the thoughts (e.g. that looks tasty), but when I noticed that happen I just went back to the direct experience.

[poppyseed]

Hi Bob

Very good looking!

‘Apple’ is just a label, a concept, an idea. It cannot be found in DE/AE. My DE with an actual apple went like this:
Seeing : I saw colours and shapes. I had the feeling that I was looking at a still-life painting or a photograph of an apple – it didn’t seem as 3-dimensional as usual.
Feeling – tingling registering on my fingers when I touched it.
Thoughts arising.

Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. Everything that thoughts labels as an apple exists as sound, smell, taste, colour, sensation and thoughts about an apple. “Object”/”thing” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Love
Rali

[bobalina]

Clear?

Yes.

Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

I've done the exercise several times, yesterday evening and this morning.

Some results:

Brushing my teeth -
I experienced:
Seeing my toothbrush and paste, simply = colour&shape (seeing)
Smelling the toothpaste, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the cool water , movement, sloshing , simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the toothpaste simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the sound inside my mouth, simply = sound (hearing)
Thoughts about the tooth-brushing and the exercise, simply = thought (thinking)

Sitting on the train -
I experienced :
Seeing the train interior, and the landscape going by out the window, simply= colour& shapes (seeing)
Smelling metal/deisel, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the movement and vibrations , simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing the train moving, rattling , people laughing nearby, simply = sound (hearing)
Thoughts about my journey, simply = thought (thinking)

Just sitting, with a bodily urge to sneeze:
Feeling the fizzy sensation in my head , simply =sensation (feeling)
Thinking "I need to sneeze" , simply = thought (thinking)

[poppyseed]

Hi Bob

Seeing the train interior, and the landscape going by out the window, simply= colour& shapes (seeing)
Smelling metal/deisel, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the movement and vibrations , simply = sensation (feeling)
Hearing the train moving, rattling , people laughing nearby, simply = sound (hearing)
Thoughts about my journey, simply = thought (thinking)

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit. Keep them coming! You can add a few lines with each of your replies, just to ensure that you are looking throughout the day.

How does it feel to see what actually is?

One thing though…

Seeing (colours) can be likened to an abstract painting and if you look at an abstract painting you start to see shapes etc within the painting itself. Those shapes aren’t really there…but they SEEM (appear) to be.
So from that perspective...do the shapes really exist? Or are they simply patterns in colours which thought groups into shapes, and further into things?
The same is happening with life. It is thought that divides experience into different abstractions and gives them objectivity via labels, dimensions, meaning and purpose and then further overlays these with stories about them.

When you look at the painting…all there is, is the paint. Can you see this?

Love
Rali

[bobalina]

How does it feel to see what actually is?

It feels fine. It helps me really see in DE how much the mind does, adding interpretation and ideas on top of the bare sense information.

Seeing (colours) can be likened to an abstract painting and if you look at an abstract painting you start to see shapes etc within the painting itself. Those shapes aren’t really there…but they SEEM (appear) to be.
So from that perspective...do the shapes really exist? Or are they simply patterns in colours which thought groups into shapes, and further into things?

I reported seeing shapes... By shapes I just mean parts of "the seen" that have a colour different to other parts. Patterns in colour, yes. I don't mean shapes as in square, circle etc.

This discussion feels conceptual but I know we need to be sure we're on the same page in how we use words. 🙂

The same is happening with life. It is thought that divides experience into different abstractions and gives them objectivity via labels, dimensions, meaning and purpose and then further overlays these with stories about them.

When you look at the painting…all there is, is the paint. Can you see this?

Yes, I see that.

[poppyseed]

Hi Bob

This discussion feels conceptual but I know we need to be sure we're on the same page in how we use words. 🙂

Words themselves do not mean anything until we agree on their meaning— a meaning that is based in experience. If we don’t agree about the meaning of a collection of letters and the sound they make, say “bochumat,” then they are just a collection of random letters. The words are interpreted and seen through filters of beliefs. The same words can mean different things to different people or different things in different situations. At the end all concepts are empty. They are pointers, like fingers that point to experience. It is easy to get stuck on concepts and believe that they are telling the truth, but none of them are truth, they are only carriers. If you get hooked on looking at the finger pointing to the moon, you can discuss the finger, debate about it, argue about it, and even create a following, but the moon (experience) is not there. The moon is located where the finger is pointing to. You can miss and forget the pointing entirely if all you can see is the pointing tool.

What is the difference between an instruction for an exercise and a concept?
None—unless it burns through you.
A real instruction or challenging a concept is a trapdoor. Not something to understand/agree. Not something to be sure about. Look at anything right now without adding a single label.
Is that conceptual?
Only if you think about it.
What remains when the instruction disappears, but looking still happens?

I looked in the body and its not there, that was obvious.

We'll come back to the observer that looked, but now, that there's looking, let’s inspect the “body”…
Is the body a container of a sort with boundaries?
1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear (location)?
Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.
Love
Rali