Re: No controller, but is that it?
Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 11:36 pm
There is no 'self', 'I', 'me'. There never was.1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Things just flow automatically in experience in the now always. But somehow an assumption of I automatically happens in thoughts. Thoughts start speaking of an I. Then facial sensations, mental images of face, body sensations are taken to be I. Thoughts start speaking of what "I" should do, what future needs to happen etc. But all of this is just automatically happening here.2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
There was a deep relaxation in the chest. Less push|revulsion against elements in experience. Feels right. Compared to before, it's much more "in the moment". Feels like what is happening here is all there is. They happen automatically. But there was no mind-shattering big bang or something. Thoughts do talk about an I, but there is no one thinking them.3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
The major issue was doubts. Based on a question from Stacy, I started looking into assumptions. "What would it take to say there is no self 100%". There were hidden expectations such as "Never feel bad", "never get caught up in self again", "Feel no revulsion towards mental image of face", "Facial sensations and mental image of face shouldn't appear again", "Always see the automaticity of experience all the time, especially in stressful interactions" etc.4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
There is nobody making a decision. Things just happen. Sometimes there can be a thought prediction of what is going to happen.5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.
Eg:
Sometimes there is a nonverbal knowing/ thought that the mouse is about to be picked up, followed by the picking up of it. Whereas some other times, there is just the picking up of it.
Thoughts appear intending to do something. Things happen and later that action is taken.Describe intention & give examples from experience.
Eg:
Thought: "I will pick up the bottle in 10 seconds". Thoughts count down from 10 to 0. Bottle gets picked up.
No such thing. There is no one who has free will. Things just happen.Describe free will & give examples from experience.
Choices just happen.Describe choice & give examples from experience.
Eg:
Thought: "Either turn head left or turn it right". Head moves right.
Nobody controlling. Things just happen.Describe control & give examples from experience.
Not sure. Seems just happening here now. It's like a flow.What makes things happen? How does it work?
Thoughts immediately came up saying "I am responsible for my family and my career to support myself and family". But they are thoughts. Gone. There is nobody responsible for anything. Still there is the wish/need that things should go a certain way.What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
This seeing of the way things really are, that it's just a flow happening automatically here without anyone controlling it, does get clouded every now and then. During stressful situations especially, thought storms about the "I" appear, and there is still the tendency to get caught up in it, assuming the I, then searching to see no-self, trying to "get it back". It did happen some number of times after there was the conclusion that there is really no self.6) Anything to add?
But even that is happening automatically without a self, in hindsight, but not so obvious when caught up in it. I guess it has to play out till it doesn't. "Falling", as you would say.
Initially when there was the admitting that there was no self, it was a wonderful relaxation. But after going through some stress and anxiety, I'm sure suffering still hasn't ended. Probably more work to be done. :)
Thanks :)