Seeking guidance for doubt and fetter work

[LoraBorealis]

Hi Rali,
Oh, I didn't see these questions. Sorry about that.

What is memory exactly?

a thought about a previous occurance

What is the memory ‘made of’?

thoughts

WHEN does the memory appear?

now

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

There is physical evidence (an empty plate, for example). However, that physical evidence is known through my eyes and other senses in my body, which are thoughts. Yeah, I don't know. I suppose it cannot be known.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

Nothing but thoughts

WHEN does the future thought appear?

Now

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

It cannot be known in the present as anything but a thought.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future, and between these type of thoughts and a thought in general?

The only difference is that there is evidence from the past, but since that exists in the now as only a thought it cannot be known as anything but a thought.

If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?

.
Only in thought.

Very best,
Laura

[poppyseed]

Hi Laura
This is gorgeous.

Only known in the now. Here is this thought. Now this thought. Now this thought. It unfolds.

Yes! But notice that even “unfolding” is a story. How can something unfold/change if there is no time line and no separation/no-things? Is this this different than the this five minutes ago without the labels? How is it known without memory/thought?

It's like looking at a lava lamp. The wax may seem to change shape, and the shapes it seems to take may seem to be present one moment, and absent the next. But all that is known without the labels is the wax. Nothing actually changed and nothing was ever born or lost, although it may have seemed to. All that is known is this - nothing can be added to it, nor taken away, it “always” IS just this. Time and change are one of the most challenging concepts to see through clearly.

I find myself (these eyeballs) watching life unfolding knowing there is no ‘I’ that has any control.

Laura, look freshly:
When you say “these eyeballs are watching life unfold”… Can an eyeball actually watch? Look directly: what’s here? Colour-shape-sensation. Is there a watcher inside the eyeball?
This breath — does it need an observer to confirm it’s happening, or is it already undeniable before any “watcher” claim?
This sound right now — is there someone hearing it, or just the sound, self-sufficient, complete?
This thought right now - is it known by anyone? Who knows that there is no "I"?
Right now — where exactly is this “watcher” you feel in the background? Can you find it anywhere outside of a thought about “me watching”?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

There is physical evidence (an empty plate, for example). However, that physical evidence is known through my eyes and other senses in my body, which are thoughts. Yeah, I don't know. I suppose it cannot be known.

Laura, notice this:
The “memory of eating” = thought.
The “empty plate now” = colour + thought (interpretation + “this proves it”).
Both are thoughts appearing now.
Can you find anything outside of this present flicker? Can you directly experience “30s ago”?
Is there actual pastness anywhere but in the thought-label “past”?
Right now — does the plate say “I am evidence of something that already happened”?
Or is that conclusion itself… just another thought tagging the colour?
Does the plate have an inherent existence – something that exists on a time-line? Or is it just the “wax” taking a “shape”?
That thought of eating — does it contain pastness inside it? Or is “this is memory” itself just another thought about thought?
Can you find any proof that the plate and the eating-thought are connected — outside of more thought?
If the “evidence” is only ever known by sight, touch, thought — how is it different from the memory itself?
Are both not just present appearances?
Right now — where is the “past” except as a label? Is there ever proof of the past in direct experience — or only thought saying so?
Is there one shred of pastness in raw colour-shape-sensation?

Love
Rali

[LoraBorealis]

Hi Rali,
Thank you.

How can something unfold/change if there is no time line and no separation/no-things? Is this this different than the this five minutes ago without the labels? How is it known without memory/thought?

I have no idea. Ya got me. It only exists in the now so it can only be known as it is in the now.

Can an eyeball actually watch? Look directly: what’s here? Colour-shape-sensation. Is there a watcher inside the eyeball?

No. Color-shape-sensation is all that is here. No watcher.

This breath — does it need an observer to confirm it’s happening, or is it already undeniable before any “watcher” claim?

No watcher needed, it is undeniable

This sound right now — is there someone hearing it, or just the sound, self-sufficient, complete?

Just sound, no listener needed

This thought right now - is it known by anyone? Who knows that there is no "I"?

This thought is not known by an "I." There is nobody here to know, it is only DE of a thought or a sound. I still have a little trouble with DE of thought...

Right now — where exactly is this “watcher” you feel in the background? Can you find it anywhere outside of a thought about “me watching”?

It is not outside of the thought "me watching."

The “memory of eating” = thought.
The “empty plate now” = colour + thought (interpretation + “this proves it”).

Can you find anything outside of this present flicker? Can you directly experience “30s ago”?

Nothing is outside this present flicker (great word for what I was trying to express earlier!)

Is there actual pastness anywhere but in the thought-label “past”?

The past is only in thought

Right now — does the plate say “I am evidence of something that already happened”?

Only in thought-memory. For all I know it could have been a plate full of crumbs set out for a future mouse dinner.

Or is that conclusion itself… just another thought tagging the colour?

The conclusion is just another thought tagging the shape/colors.

Does the plate have an inherent existence – something that exists on a time-line? Or is it just the “wax” taking a “shape”?

I have trouble understanding the lava lamp and wax. And now the plate taking a shape rather than having an inherent existence. I will meditate on this to see it more clearly.

That thought of eating — does it contain pastness inside it? Or is “this is memory” itself just another thought about thought?

It is just a thought.

Can you find any proof that the plate and the eating-thought are connected — outside of more thought?

Shape/color of the plate is a DE in the present but the memory of eating is a thought. The memory of a full plate is also a memory thought. Is that the direction I should be looking?

If the “evidence” is only ever known by sight, touch, thought — how is it different from the memory itself?

"Evidence" is only a thought outside of the DE of color/shape, touch.

Are both not just present appearances?

Both are indeed just present experiences

Right now — where is the “past” except as a label? Is there ever proof of the past in direct experience — or only thought saying so?

The past is only in thought outside DE.

Is there one shred of pastness in raw colour-shape-sensation?

No, the raw color-shape-sensation is all that is present, the past is only a thought.

Thank you!
Laura

[poppyseed]

Hi Laura
Beautiful looking. You’ve already seen it:
Memory = thought.
“Evidence” = colour/shape + thought.
Pastness itself = only thought saying “past.”

It's like looking at a lava lamp. The wax may seem to change shape, and the shapes it seems to take may seem to be present one moment, and absent the next. But all that is known without the labels is the wax. Nothing actually changed and nothing was ever born or lost, although it may have seemed to. All that is known is this - nothing can be added to it, nor taken away, it “always” IS just this. Time and change are one of the most challenging concepts to see through clearly

.

Does the plate have an inherent existence – something that exists on a time-line? Or is it just the “wax” taking a “shape”?

I have trouble understanding the lava lamp and wax. And now the plate taking a shape rather than having an inherent existence. I will meditate on this to see it more clearly.

When you look at a plate, all that’s actually here is colour-shape-sensation + the thought “plate.”
The mind says: “This plate existed 5 minutes ago, it will exist 5 minutes later.”
But look — where is that continuity except in thought?
The “lava lamp” was meant to show: the wax is just this raw appearing/ just this. The shapes (“plate,” “crumbs,” “empty”) are only labels, like temporary forms/patterns. Nothing is actually persisting through time — only thought claims continuity.
Right now — this “plate.” What is here? Colour-shape, maybe sensation.
Does the colour-shape itself say “I am a plate that existed 5 minutes ago”? Or is that only thought, weaving continuity?
Does it say “I will still be here in an hour”? Or only thought?
Isn’t it just like wax — only this appearing now, with thought carving it into “was” and “will be”?
Without the timeline-story, can you find anything more than this raw shape-colour here?
Notice this: the appearance doesn’t persist as an object (apple exercise) traveling through time – inherent existence/existing independently, on its own. Only thought supplies the timeline.
It’s like this: wax in a lava lamp is always just wax. But thought comes in and says: “Ah! That blob is the same blob as before! It lasted, it continued. It’s a thing”
In actuality: only this shape, right now. Next shape = next thought = new “moment.” Continuity is only a mental overlay.
So ask: can you find anything in the raw colour-shape that proves it is the same plate that existed a moment ago?
Or is that idea itself just another thought appearing now, like all others?

Here’s a simple exercise that cuts right at the illusion of continuity:
The Vanishing Object
1.Place an object in front of you — like a cup or that plate.
2.Look at it. Notice what is actually here: colour-shape.
3.Close your eyes.
Where did the plate go?
Can you find any evidence of it still existing without thought?
4.Open your eyes again.
Is this the same plate as before? Or just colour-shape appearing now, with thought stitching it into a story of “continuity”?
Keep checking:
Without thought, is there ever proof of persistence?
Or is there only this flicker — shape now, shape now, shape now — with the “same plate” being nothing but narration?

Love
Rali

[LoraBorealis]

Hi Rali,

where is that continuity except in thought?

There is no continuity, except in thought. The plate exists only in the now.

What is here? Colour-shape, maybe sensation.

Agreed

Does the colour-shape itself say “I am a plate that existed 5 minutes ago”? Or is that only thought, weaving continuity?

I see this: Nothing is actually persisting through time — only thought claims continuity.

Does it say “I will still be here in an hour”? Or only thought?

Only in thought

Isn’t it just like wax — only this appearing now, with thought carving it into “was” and “will be”?

Yes

Without the timeline-story, can you find anything more than this raw shape-colour here?

I cannot find anything except the color-shape here now.

can you find anything in the raw colour-shape that proves it is the same plate that existed a moment ago?

No, it is only seen as it is in the now.

Or is that idea itself just another thought appearing now, like all others?

Continuity is a thought

Where did the plate go?

The plate is gone

Can you find any evidence of it still existing without thought?

Only in thought.

Is this the same plate as before? Or just colour-shape appearing now, with thought stitching it into a story of “continuity”?

The color-shape is appearing now, as a new plate. The continuity is only a thought-memory.

Without thought, is there ever proof of persistence?

No proof without thought

Or is there only this flicker — shape now, shape now, shape now — with the “same plate” being nothing but narration?

Only a flicker of the color-shape now. The 'same plate' is a thought-story of continuity.

Much gratitude!
Laura

[poppyseed]

Hi Laura,
Beautifully seen! Notice how radical this is:
Right now—can you find anything in direct experience that carries over from a moment ago?
Or is there only this flicker—colour-shape-sensation-thought—fresh, new, already complete?
The mind says: “But of course it’s the same plate, it has to persist.”
But look—where is the “same”? Where is persistence, other than thought looping back on itself?
Without the story of continuity, is there any thing at all?
Or just this ever-new appearance, never repeating, never the same twice?
This is the lava lamp pointer again: wax takes shapes, but no “thing” survives—only flow.
Likewise here: “plate,” “same,” “still here” are all narration stitched over a raw flicker that never lasts.
So now the question:
If nothing persists, if there is no continuity—what room is left for a “self” to persist?
Can you find “Laura” anywhere outside of this same storytelling mechanism?

At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time. See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses, everything is part of one movement Hold these questions in mind:
Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought? Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?
Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?
Is there a “you”?

Love
Rali

[LoraBorealis]

Hi Rali,

can you find anything in direct experience that carries over from a moment ago?

No

Or is there only this flicker—colour-shape-sensation-thought—fresh, new, already complete?

Only a flicker of color shape sensation thought

But look—where is the “same”? Where is persistence, other than thought looping back on itself?

The 'same' is only in thought looping back on itself.

Without the story of continuity, is there any thing at all?

There are color-shapes, sensations, thought. If it is a sensation, that is all there is. If there is an appearance of a color-shape then it is an appearance of a color shape. Sound is simply sound. There is no-thing at all. I see this.

Or just this ever-new appearance, never repeating, never the same twice?

Ever-new, never repeating wiggling leaves, clouds changing shape, new color-shape in every flicker.

If nothing persists, if there is no continuity—what room is left for a “self” to persist?

I see this, there is no room for a self to persist, as nothing persists except in thought

Can you find “Laura” anywhere outside of this same storytelling mechanism?

No

Just returning from a hike in the forested hills:

Is there anything that is separate from everything else?

I don't see that anything exists separately. I feel the wind blowing on my skin as a cool sensation, as a color-shapes of the wiggling leaves and birds flying in the currents. Along with all that, the smell of the decaying leaves under foot blown down from the wind is all perceived here, interdependently.

Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought?

When I close my eyes there is no body, only sensations, smells, sounds. When I open my eyes the color-shapes take on a fresh new appearance but the thought is still that it is an 'out there.' I have previously seen that there was no border so why is there an "I" that feels stuck 'in here' today?

I am going to pause and come back to this... I will send it to you now, unfinished until tomorrow.

Is that interdependent movement outside of you?

Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?

Is there an owner of being?

Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?

Is there a “you”?

[poppyseed]

Hi Laura,
Beautiful seeing about persistence — you already saw it: nothing carries over, nothing remains. And if nothing remains, how could a self remain?
Now — let’s turn to this “in-here / out-there.”

I have previously seen that there was no border so why is there an "I" that feels stuck 'in here' today?

Is there an “I” in control of thoughts, the narration? Or is it just thoughts self-organising and sticking the “me” label on top after the fact?
Is there an “I” that has seen and had a realisation and now is getting stuck again??
The “self” is nothing but thought claiming ownership of self-organising processes that were already happening.
There is an expectation, that once the no self is seen all thoughts will drop or change. Conditioning was not formed in a day and it will not change in a day either. It may take years. The initial realization, though, is irreversible, just as we can never go back to believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy.

When someone we know dies, it takes time for that to "sink in". It's not that we don't believe that the person has died. It is just they are still part of our lives - we open the wardrobe and their clothes are still there, we walk in the park and we remember when we used to do it together. It takes time to readjust our lives to living without them. That process of “sinking in” can be observed in many other situations – like being diagnosed with a life changing disease, losing a job that we had for a long time etc. Even though the change is sudden and quick, it can be perceived as a long process – it can feel as though something is still sinking in, or hasn’t yet sunk in. The point applies equally to habitual patterns of thought and activity, which similarly reflect how our lives are organised. When the established patterns of a life are disturbed, thought cannot adapt to all of this in an instant, simply by revising all of our old beliefs. Much of the old organisation lingers on, in the guise of a world that we continue to experience and in habitual patterns of thought and activity that our surroundings continue to elicit. That very much applies to seeing the illusion of an “I” - it’s quite a sudden change with a relatively long process of adapting to this change. The recognition of no self is just the beginning of seeing life and “yourself” in a new light. It takes time to clean up all old beliefs and conditioning.

To “deal” with this, question everything, and little by little you will notice changes in everyday life: less judgment, more openness; less thinking, more appreciation; less story, more being; less structure, more flow. You will notice that some habitual thoughts no longer arise. The story changes in a way that allows more space for simply being.
There might still be expectations, confusion, and doubt. That’s quite normal at this stage. You may be swaying between “I get it” and “I don’t get it.” You may be thinking that this is not enough, that some experiences need to happen, that you should be happy and blissful all the time. When these thoughts arise, bring the focus to what is present here now. Just THIS. And look again: what is here that wants THIS to be different (including the presence of doubtful thoughts)?
Here a video that might be helpful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w

Laura, let’s check this here-there, right now:
Close your eyes: sensation, sound, smell. Where’s the “border” of the body? Can you find one? Or is it just another thought drawing a line?
Open your eyes: colour-shapes. Where’s the “in-here” looking out at “out-there”? Can you find an actual distance? Or only a thought saying so?
Try this: pick an object — a table, chair, or door. Now imagine drawing a line starting from that object toward “here.”
Where does the line actually end? Can you find a real border, or does it dissolve into colour-shape, with “here/there” existing only as a thought overlay?
Look freshly. Report from direct experience, not from the memory of how it “should” look.
Where exactly is this “I” who is supposedly inside? Where is the “I” that could possibly be stuck “in here”? Look directly: sensation? colour? thought? anything but a narration? Any mini me in a mini armchair?
Is there anything in direct experience that divides “me” from “world”?
Right now, without thought:
Is that interdependent movement outside of you?
Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?
Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others? Is there anyone in others?
Is there a “you” anywhere at all?
Stay with that. Look freshly. Report from direct experience — not from memory.

I can give you more pointers on "others" if you want...
Love
Rali

[LoraBorealis]

Thank you, Rali,
I'm so glad to get your email. I have been feeling frustrated and confused so this makes a lot of sense. Of course, I have heard this a hundred times in talks, but it meant nothing until now.

And if nothing remains, how could a self remain?

A self could only remain in thought.

Is there an “I” in control of thoughts, the narration? Or is it just thoughts self-organising and sticking the “me” label on top after the fact?

There is no "I" controlling thoughts. I have been keenly observing this over the weekend. It is thoughts self-organizing and sticking a "me" label after the fact.

Is there an “I” that has seen and had a realisation and now is getting stuck again??

There is no "I" to get stuck, as much as thought tells me so!

VIDEO
Fantastic. Wow what a relief. The confusion and frustration is normal. Great advice.

Here-There, right now:

what is here that wants THIS to be different (including the presence of doubtful thoughts)?

Only another thought.

Where’s the “border” of the body? Can you find one? Or is it just another thought drawing a line?

I cannot find a border, it is just a thought drawing a line

Open your eyes: colour-shapes. Where’s the “in-here” looking out at “out-there”?

There is a thought of "I am in here" and that blue vase is "out there." It is a thought.

Can you find an actual distance? Or only a thought saying so?

My body could walk over to the vase, but that is also a thought. There is also a thought that it appears as a screen at no distance. And another thought that says "it is right here, right now, in the same place as the sound of the fan."

Where does the line actually end? Can you find a real border, or does it dissolve into colour-shape, with “here/there” existing only as a thought overlay?

I can imagine it will end inside my body at my brain or my heart, but that is only a thought. There is no real border. It is only an imagination-thought overlay.

Where exactly is this “I” who is supposedly inside? Where is the “I” that could possibly be stuck “in here”?

This "I" is an old memory of the "I" being located inside my brain. That is an old pattern from many years ago that I thought was dissolved! There is no "I" that could be stuck in here.

Look directly: sensation? colour? thought? anything but a narration? Any mini me in a mini armchair?

Only narration. (Funny, I woke up thinking about "mini-me" this morning!): there is no mini-me homunculus chilling in a mini armchair with switches and gears driving around this body and making decisions.

Is there anything in direct experience that divides “me” from “world”?

Nothing that I can find.

Is that interdependent movement outside of you?

Everything is interdependent including the "me"

Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?

No

Is there an owner of being?

No 'owner,' homunculus, everything is a happening, flicker, here

Are there others? Is there an “I” in others? Is there anyone in others?

Others are here as a part of the interdependence in the now. I don't see that they have an "I" as they are a flicker of what is appearing without persistence.

Is there a “you” anywhere at all?

There cannot be. I find no "me"

Like Neo, I have to go throw up now. (the character Laura is so dramatic)
Very best to you.
Laura

[poppyseed]

Hi Laura,
You’ve seen so clearly: no watcher, no border, no “mini-me,” no persistence, no others with an “I.”

So let's review where we are at with the following questions.
What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?
What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?
Is seeking still going on?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?
If “Laura” doesn’t exist — what could possibly be stuck, or unstuck? What could be lost, or found?
What’s the difference between “this ordinary moment right now” and the supposed “awakening” you expected?
Take your time — but really look. Nothing needs to be figured out, only checked.


All love,
Rali

[LoraBorealis]

Hi Rali,

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?

I am more aware of my thoughts being only thoughts so I am less identified with them. I am still chopping wood and carrying water, taking out the trash, etc. What changes? Generally speaking, everything. What stays the same - nothing.

What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?

The biggest difference is that I see "persistence" is only a thought. There is no "me" there to persist except as thoughts. This is pretty huge.

Is seeking still going on?

Gosh yes. I still feel like I am missing something or something still needs to drop away. Is that just a habit that will need to drop away?

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

I suppose I have a little confusion on other people, but as I see it, they are all thoughts and/or reflections of me.
I feel somewhat confused about why I don't feel very different. I feel like I am still the watcher.

Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

How about a little yes? I see the illusion of self as just a bunch of thoughts. There is no mini-me driving this meat suit around. Nothing persists.

If “Laura” doesn’t exist — what could possibly be stuck, or unstuck? What could be lost, or found?

Nothing is there to be stuck or lost, etc. This is a flux, a flicker. Ever flickering.

What’s the difference between “this ordinary moment right now” and the supposed “awakening” you expected?

I have heard so many amazing stories and kundalini awakenings. This ordinary moment right now is definitely simpler without too many extra thoughts. Even when thoughts come up I can quickly identify them and let go pretty easily. How do I know that I am not just imagining or thinking all of this?

[LoraBorealis]

Sorry, I hit Submit by accident. But, I think I'm actually done with this for now.
Please see below.
Thank you!!
Laura

[poppyseed]

Hi Laura,

Gosh yes. I still feel like I am missing something or something still needs to drop away. Is that just a habit that will need to drop away?

I have heard so many amazing stories and kundalini awakenings. This ordinary moment right now is definitely simpler without too many extra thoughts. Even when thoughts come up I can quickly identify them and let go pretty easily. How do I know that I am not just imagining or thinking all of this?

This is why I asked you to approach this inquiry with a “beginner’s mind”. Expectations are one of the most frequent blocks to seeing what ‘reality’ actually IS. We can blame Guru stories and the attraction to drama in our society for focusing on stories of the initial epiphany that people have as they wake up. (because they usually have a ‘wow’ factor). This puts into our head, the idea of “bells and whistles”. We expect high drama to confirm that a significant shift has occurred. But some suspected it all along so the “wow” is a “oh well…”.
Expectations come in the way of seeing this moment as it IS. They are the main source of doubt (doubtful thoughts). Are expectations (i.e. thoughts) even useful? They try to predict what the future should be like if this and this happens, based on memories (i.e. thoughts) about past experiences, learned stuff (teachings etc).
Do they ever match what actually unfolds?
They pretend to guide, protect, prepare. But they’re ghosts, composed only of memory trying to own the future—which never arrives. What’s here now is never the “expected.” It’s always different, immediate, raw, unrepeatable - but experienceable.
Then what is the function of expectation except to cover what’s already whole?
Look! What happens when no expectation is running?
Where is lack?
Where is confusion?
Is anything wrong—or just... this?

Notice: you say “How do I know I’m not just imagining this?” But where is the knower that needs to know that she/Laura is “not just imagining this”?
Look closely: is there anything outside of thought that doubts, a doubter? Or is doubt itself just another thought flickering here, no different than a bird call? Is this doubt even yours?
About “not feeling very different”: awakening isn’t a fireworks show, it’s the collapse of the one who was waiting for fireworks. It turns out to be this — chopping wood, carrying water, taking out the trash. Always only ever this.

I feel somewhat confused about why I don't feel very different. I feel like I am still the watcher.

Remember feels like, seems like = thought content
Nothing in DE is seems like or feels like, it just IS.
You’ve already seen:
“Persistence” = only thought.
“Mini-me” = only thought.
“Watcher” = only thought.
So the real check: Is there anything else here right now, apart from colour-shape, sensation, sound, thought?
Don’t say “I can’t find it.” That’s another thought.
LOOK again. In this moment. Is there a center to experience, observation station? A mini me pointing a telescope at things, or pulling the eyes' nerves?

If the “watcher” doesn’t exist in direct experience — where could it be hiding?
If there’s no self here — then who could be missing something? Who exactly is left to be “stuck”/”confused”?
What isn’t already happening by itself?
What would need to be proven to whom?
There is no “big awakening” waiting around the corner. This is it — ordinary, flickering, seamless, without anyone behind it. The only thing left is thought saying “surely not this simple?”
Let me ask you:
Right now, without the commentary — is there any difference between this ordinary moment and the “awakening” you hoped for?

I suppose I have a little confusion on other people, but as I see it, they are all thoughts and/or reflections of me.

Let’s explore “others” a bit more…
Can you find a self in other “human bodies”? How do you KNOW it’s there? Can the “I” of “others” be directly experienced? Can you directly experience "others"?
Right now, when the word “others” comes up — what’s actually here?
A thought-image of faces? A memory? A label “my friend,” “my partner,” “my kids”? Or is there an actual second entity standing apart, separate, “other”?
Look closely:
Is there you here and someone else over there — in direct experience, before the story sticks?
Or are there just colours, sounds, sensations, and thought saying “that’s another person”?
Can you find any “entity” behind the face, or only colours-shapes-sounds + a thought saying “that’s another person”? Look right now — where is the border between “me” and “others,” except in narration?

Others could refer to other minds. If it is seen that you don't own a mind then how can others own their minds? Are there others’ experiences (or that is an assumption)? How exactly is it known?

In DE there is only seeing/hearing/etc. and thinking provides the labels. Seeing is like a picture that everything is drawn in pencil on paper – the illusion of separation is created by different colours used – otherwise it’s all paper.

Different colours in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing. Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a speech but all that is there is hearing. Can you see that?
Also, is there space (outside of seeing) where these others exist? What is the difference between “here” and “there” without thought content?

Let’s examine what thoughts say is there vs what is actually there:
Thoughts vs DE (cup of coffee exercise)

First thing, my body vs other body:
My body = sensations
Other body = colours
Thoughts ABOUT other body’s sensations = thoughts (aka conditioned interpretation of colour)
Interpretation/ thought is neither here nor there, it just IS

Second, my thoughts vs other’s thoughts (e.g. chat on the forum, others’ speech)
Chat:
My thoughts = thoughts
Other’s thoughts = colour (black and white) + thought (conditioned interpretation of colours)
In speech:
Other’s speech = sound + thought (conditioned interpretation of sound)
Interpretation/thought is neither here nor there, it just IS
Sound of the fan. Voice of your mom. Internal commentary. Birdsong. Keyboard tapping.
Is any of it more "real"? Does any sound have an owner? Does the sound labelled “birdsong” contain birds in it? Or a fan? Or a mom?

Third, touching another
Me touching my friend = one sensation (location-less)
Thinking how his skin is so soft = thought about a sensation
Interpretation is neither here nor there, it just IS
When you touch 'another', are there two sensations one of 'you' and one of 'other' or just one/just feeling? Are others outside of feeling (them)? Where is the border that marks where feeling ends and "other" begin?

So in DE, where could possibly that other be??

I will be travelling for the next 2 days so I will respond once I have an access to internet. Please use the time to savour each question and look closely

Love
Rali

[LoraBorealis]

Thank you. I'll use this time well!
Bon Voyage,
Laura

[LoraBorealis]

Hi Rali,
Well, the good news is that I was already aware of my expectations so I fully see how they can get (have gotten) in the way. I had a little extra down-time today so this was perfect for some quality "looking".

Are expectations (i.e. thoughts) even useful?

Expectations are not useful to this process. Though, they come in pretty handy at my workplace for planning, insurance, etc.

Do they ever match what actually unfolds?

No, expectations do not match what has unfolded during our conversations.

Then what is the function of expectation except to cover what’s already whole?

I always thought of expectations more of a guide or possibly a 'calling forth'. If those stories of gurus and awakenings didn't have a wow factor I wonder if I would have been as interested in waking up from the illusion of self? Expectations don't seem to be all bad, but in this case I see how they are covering up what is. I see that clearly.

What happens when no expectation is running?

Then this just is. Without a story or an overlay of thoughts.

Where is lack?

There is no lack

Where is confusion?

No confusion

Is anything wrong—or just... this?

Nothing is wrong - it is just this

But where is the knower that needs to know that she/Laura is “not just imagining this”?

Just a thought or series of thoughts

Look closely: is there anything outside of thought that doubts, a doubter? Or is doubt itself just another thought flickering here, no different than a bird call? Is this doubt even yours?

Doubt is just thoughts flickering, no different than a bird call. Doubt is not mine because thoughts appear in a flicker like a bird call. If I follow my looking into thoughts and where they came from I end up with "I just AM. This."

Is there anything else here right now, apart from colour-shape, sensation, sound, thought?

Nada. Zip.

LOOK again. In this moment. Is there a center to experience, observation station? A mini me pointing a telescope at things, or pulling the eyes' nerves?

I see no observation station, no center (once again!). <3

If the “watcher” doesn’t exist in direct experience — where could it be hiding?

Ya got me.

If there’s no self here — then who could be missing something? Who exactly is left to be “stuck”/”confused”?

Nobody to be stuck, there are only thoughts

What isn’t already happening by itself?

It is all happening by itself, this is clear

What would need to be proven to whom?

The flickers are appearing without a need for a whom to witness

There is no “big awakening” waiting around the corner. This is it — ordinary, flickering, seamless, without anyone behind it. The only thing left is thought saying “surely not this simple?” (Just going to leave this here)

Right now, without the commentary — is there any difference between this ordinary moment and the “awakening” you hoped for?

I am not sure about how to answer this...This is here; bright, clear, unfolding without thoughts. The awakening I thought might happen would include fantastical visions of past lives and lots of crying with joy. This is pretty nice though. Oh well.

Other people:

Can you find a self in other “human bodies”? How do you KNOW it’s there? Can the “I” of “others” be directly experienced?

I cannot KNOW there is a self in what is appearing as others in my DE. It is only me I can experience.

Can you directly experience "others"?

There is a sensation of touch, there are colors-shapes, smells, sounds that appear, but that is all. I cannot experience others.

Right now, when the word “others” comes up — what’s actually here?

Only sensations and thoughts that are DE

A thought-image of faces? A memory? A label “my friend,” “my partner,” “my kids”? Or is there an actual second entity standing apart, separate, “other”?

There are only sensations and thoughts here. There is no other direct experience. No friend. No cat HoneyBee.
How sad.

Is there you here and someone else over there — in direct experience, before the story sticks?

In DE it is only me

Or are there just colours, sounds, sensations, and thought saying “that’s another person”?

Yes, only colors, sounds, sensations and thoughts saying "other person"

Can you find any “entity” behind the face, or only colours-shapes-sounds + a thought saying “that’s another person”?

Only colors-shapes-sounds + thought

Look right now — where is the border between “me” and “others,” except in narration?

It is all here. Without borders

If it is seen that you don't own a mind then how can others own their minds? Are there others’ experiences (or that is an assumption)? How exactly is it known?

It is an assumption based on thoughts and sensations. It cannot be known as anything else.

Cartoon Image

Can you see that?

yes

Also, is there space (outside of seeing) where these others exist? What is the difference between “here” and “there” without thought content?

There is no 'over there' in my direct experience, only here

thought is neither here nor there, it just IS

This is helpful.

Is any of it more "real"? Does any sound have an owner? Does the sound labelled “birdsong” contain birds in it? Or a fan? Or a mom?

It is all the same and appears here.

When you touch 'another', are there two sensations one of 'you' and one of 'other' or just one/just feeling? Are others outside of feeling (them)? Where is the border that marks where feeling ends and "other" begin?

I see this clearly. There is only one sensation and one feeling found here without a border.

So in DE, where could possibly that other be??

There is no other. Only sensations, sounds, colors that appear directly here and only here.
Yowza.

With much gratitude,
Laura