I am here because I couldn't not have been

[Kalyani]

If I say: “I am responsible to my kids for taking care of them, providing for their needs - food, shelter, love”. That assumes there is a me who is deciding to provide to them or not. So that implies a “me” is there in control of these things. How does taking care of them happen in reality? I guess just like anything else, what “I” do to take care of them are things that I can’t not do. Things that are just done. Sometimes they are proceeded by a swarm of thoughts like with the sweater decision and sometimes actions just happening.

[Kalyani]

I think the decision making might be a sticky point for me. I was contemplating just now a hypothetical scenario where I’m talking to 2 friends and the 2 give me different advice. A bunch of thoughts pass through analyzing the 2 pieces of advice and then one advice is determined as good and an action is taken accordingly. In a situation like this one it feels like “I” made a choice or a decision. But I also saw before that there is no me in control of thoughts about advice or decision. Something is sticky here and I can’t put my finger on it.

[warissem]

Hi Kalyani

You are doing a good job here.

I can’t find Kalyani, but feels like there are choices that get made somehow. How do they get made? Just the same way the wind blows here and there? I don’t know.

Yes, there are choices, there is decision, there is thinking, there is walking, there is wind blowing, …There is also a willing to know “how”.

So I’ve been trying to understand how this or that thing happens that “I” do.

What is this "I" which is a doer in your own words?

I’ll choose the example of what to wear in the morning. It seems there is a quick swarm of thoughts that pass through the mind one after the other listing all considerations very quickly and sometimes even going back and forth on a decision.

Is there you choosing the example or is it just thought arising?
You used "it seems" : does it seem or have you seen with certainty that thoughts come and go without a need of you?

For example thoughts like: I’m cold, I need a sweater, the one I want is downstairs, should I go get it? Nah, I’ll just grab this other one. Then I grab it and on to the next thing. It seems that thoughts often preceed a decision.

Write what is said above without using "I" and see what happens.

We established before that there is no me who controls thoughts.

Is it a hypothesis or have you really seen that there is no you, no separate self?

I saw them just coming on their own.

What is this "I" seeing thoughts?

But they are not just some random happening all the time. Like thoughts about a sweater come in a situation where a sweater is needed.

Yes, good to see that.


Who orchestrated that?
Is there a need for a who? Is a verb necessarily need a subject : raining, breathing, digesting, thinking, walking, ...
How about the responses of a computer : is there a manager operating or is it just a program running?

This is a tricky one. Before, I used to think I am responsible for doing my job at work and also for my kids for example. Today I don’t think there is a “me” responsible for doing my job. I see it just gets done. But I have a harder time saying there isn’t a “me” responsible for my kids. Hmmm I know it doesn’t make sense logically. I guess it is where a belief is hanging on .

Seeing that there is no you does not mean building a belief of “no you”, no separate self. No, absolutely not. It is a seeing like seeing that there is no unicorn in the room right now.
What is this “me” : a sensation, a color, a shape, a smell, a taste, a thought ? Put a finger on this “me”.
About responsibility, even animals take care of their young, it is a survival instinct.

Ponder on what is said and don't forget about direct experience.

Waiting for your insights.

[Kalyani]

What is this "I" which is a doer in your own words?

When I say things that “I” do, I mean things that are in this field of awareness here. Like when this mind registers thoughts about a sweater and the body goes and grabs a sweater.

Is there you choosing the example or is it just thought arising?
You used "it seems" : does it seem or have you seen with certainty that thoughts come and go without a need of you?

Yes it’s thought arising in response to words on the screen that awareness is aware of. I have definitely seen that thoughts come and go on their own.

What is this "I" seeing thoughts?

Some kind of awareness, a knowing. There is a constant knowing happening of whatever is in that moment.

Who orchestrated that?
Is there a need for a who? Is a verb necessarily need a subject : raining, breathing, digesting, thinking, walking, ...
How about the responses of a computer : is there a manager operating or is it just a program running?

Good one, the analogy makes sense. There is a program that when it’s cold we seek ways to be warm, thoughts are needed to initiate action within the program.

Write what is said above without using "I" and see what happens

.

It’s cold, a sweater is needed. There is a preference for the sweater which is downstairs. There is contemplation about going to go get it? A decision is made to grab a closer sweater and that sweater is taken.

This sounds like an algorithm.

Is it a hypothesis or have you really seen that there is no you, no separate self?

I thought I have, but maybe I have not. I appreciate your patience by the way! Thank you for asking me over and over.

Seeing that there is no you does not mean building a belief of “no you”, no separate self. No, absolutely not. It is a seeing like seeing that there is no unicorn in the room right now.
What is this “me” : a sensation, a color, a shape, a smell, a taste, a thought ? Put a finger on this “me”.

Maybe I don’t see it yet. Because when I ask myself is there a me? I kind of then go through some quick thinking exercise to remind myself that there is no me. Something like: “there’s a body and thoughts, but that’s not me, so there is no me here”. It’s like I have to remind myself that what I can see is not “me”, I’ve always thought when I looked at this body that it was a me. Now I keep reminding myself that the body isn’t me. I’ve always thought that the thoughts were produced by a me, now I’ve seen they aren’t produced by a me, but are registered somehow… it seems like I’m always piecing all this information together instead of simply seeing. I think there were moments of seeing but actually also still a lot of just thinking about seeing.

[warissem]

Good morning

When I say things that “I” do, I mean things that are in this field of awareness here. Like when this mind registers thoughts about a sweater and the body goes and grabs a sweater.

Have you seen a mind doing something or is it just an assumption?
What is a mind outside of thoughts?

Yes it’s thought arising in response to words on the screen that awareness is aware of.

Is there a screen in direct experience or you have read this somewhere?
Is there awareness, a subject, different from being aware, a verb?

I have definitely seen that thoughts come and go on their own.

Good to know.

Some kind of awareness, a knowing. There is a constant knowing happening of whatever is in that moment.
Is there a doubt about awareness (being aware or knowing)?

When there is clarity, do you say “some kind of sunlight”, or some “kind of clarity”?

Good one, the analogy makes sense. There is a program that when it’s cold we seek ways to be warm,

Yes. How do you feel to see this?

thoughts are needed to initiate action within the program.

Are you sure? Here is an exercise to do to be clear about this.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

It’s cold, a sweater is needed. There is a preference for the sweater which is downstairs. There is contemplation about going to go get it? A decision is made to grab a closer sweater and that sweater is taken.

This sounds like an algorithm.

Is a you needed to operate?

I thought I have, but maybe I have not. I appreciate your patience by the way! Thank you for asking me over and over.

You are welcome, there is no worry, I just give pointers.

About the seeing of no separate self, there is nothing to see. When you look for a unicorn in your room, there is no unicorn to be found and that's it. Are you aware of these words on the screen?
Are you aware of this aliveness?
Is aliveness separate from the knowing (being aware) of it?
Is the whole experience right here now separate from the knowing of it?

Waiting for your insights

[Kalyani]

Have you seen a mind doing something or is it just an assumption?
What is a mind outside of thoughts?

Nope haven’t seen the mind doing something and outside of thoughts it’s nothing.

Is there awareness, a subject, different from being aware, a verb?

This is interesting, i keep trying to find a subject (an awareness/a knowing), something that I could still say that I am. And no, a subject isn’t needed here.

When there is clarity, do you say “some kind of sunlight”, or some “kind of clarity”?

Asking myself if there is some kind of awareness/knowing, I can drop the “some kind”. There is definitely awareness/knowing at all times which happens all on its own. Nothing needs to be done to know or be aware.

Good one, the analogy makes sense. There is a program that when it’s cold we seek ways to be warm,
Yes. How do you feel to see this?

There are both feelings of disappointment and relief. Disappointing because all this credit that was taken for actions isn’t valid and relieved because there is no pressure to do anything then.

I did the hand exercise again. In that instance thoughts are definitely not needed to do anything. I can’t say that I know that with 100% certainty about all other instances. Thoughts/actions happen very fast and I can’t catch when the thoughts start and whether the thought or the action came first when I try to do it just throughout the day. Often it’s clear the thought comes after and describes or responds to what is happening, but I’m not 100% sure it is always so.

Is a you needed to operate?

No :)

About the seeing of no separate self, there is nothing to see. When you look for a unicorn in your room, there is no unicorn to be found and that's it. Are you aware of these words on the screen?
Are you aware of this aliveness?
Is aliveness separate from the knowing (being aware) of it?
Is the whole experience right here now separate from the knowing of it?

No to all. When I go to look at the direct experience to answer these questions, a buzzing sensations spreads through my head and there are pleasant feelings of calm.

It’s a relief that there is actually nothing to see, because there isn’t anyone there. So I can stop trying to see something

[warissem]

Hi Kalyani

This is interesting, i keep trying to find a subject (an awareness/a knowing), something that I could still say that I am. And no, a subject isn’t needed here.

There is knowing (= being aware=awareness) happening.

Asking myself if there is some kind of awareness/knowing, I can drop the “some kind”. There is definitely awareness/knowing at all times which happens all on its own. Nothing needs to be done to know or be aware.

Yes, being aware is here before the beginning of seeking, do you see that?
Do you see that there is awareness at the very beginning of the seeking?
What is sought is already shining at the first place, do you see that?

There are both feelings of disappointment and relief. Disappointing because all this credit that was taken for actions isn’t valid and relieved because there is no pressure to do anything then.

There is no you at the first place doing anything. Things are done when necessary.

About the seeing of no separate self, there is nothing to see. When you look for a unicorn in your room, there is no unicorn to be found and that's it. Are you aware of these words on the screen?
Are you aware of this aliveness?
Is aliveness separate from the knowing (being aware) of it?
Is the whole experience right here now separate from the knowing of it?

No to all. When I go to look at the direct experience to answer these questions, a buzzing sensations spreads through my head and there are pleasant feelings of calm.

You said NO as the answer to all the above questions. I invite you to LOOK AT each question and where it points to then give answers to each question separately.

It’s a relief that there is actually nothing to see, because there isn’t anyone there. So I can stop trying to see something

Yes, there is no you to stop trying.

Waiting for your insights

[Kalyani]

Yes, being aware is here before the beginning of seeking, do you see that?
Do you see that there is awareness at the very beginning of the seeking?
What is sought is already shining at the first place, do you see that?

Yes, I see that. I see that awareness is in the beginning of everything, contains every experience and requires nobody to do anything.

But there is also a program of forgetting the above that keeps running within the awareness.

There is no you at the first place doing anything. Things are done when necessary.

I see this also. Things happen in a certain way, which is the only way they could have happened.

About the seeing of no separate self, there is nothing to see. When you look for a unicorn in your room, there is no unicorn to be found and that's it. Are you aware of these words on the screen?
Are you aware of this aliveness?
Is aliveness separate from the knowing (being aware) of it?
Is the whole experience right here now separate from the knowing of it?
No to all. When I go to look at the direct experience to answer these questions, a buzzing sensations spreads through my head and there are pleasant feelings of calm.
You said NO as the answer to all the above questions. I invite you to LOOK AT each question and where it points to then give answers to each question separately.

OK, when I sad No to all, i thought the first two questions meant "is there a you who is aware". I am thinking now they weren't meant in that way. Then here are the answers:

Are you aware of these words on the screen?

Yes.

Are you aware of this aliveness?

Yes.

Is aliveness separate from the knowing (being aware) of it?

No, nothing that is known is separate from the knowing. This makes my head start buzzing. There is no gap, nothing in between. The action of typing this and knowing of it are one and the same, immediately appearing at once. It is the same with thinking, appearance of thoughts and knowing they are there. It is immediate, nobody is in between.

Is the whole experience right here now separate from the knowing of it?

No. There is no separation anywhere to be found at all. The connection is so immediate that there can be no "me" in between. The "me" are thoughts added on top of what is happening + awareness of it.

[warissem]

Good morning

There is clarity, wonderful.

About this :

But there is also a program of forgetting the above that keeps running within the awareness.

Can a sun forget itself to shine?

The situation is that sometimes there is being aware knowingly (awareness aware of itself), other times there is being aware but the attention is on something else (senses appearances, thoughts, ...). Sometimes there is a clear sky, sometimes there are clouds. The light is always shining uninterruptedly.

I invite you to go for a walk in a park or in nature and observe what is going on. Look at the flow of life in whatever is : people, animals, trees, sounds, colors, sensations, etc ... See that there is no you, no Kalyani intervening.
Let me know about your comments and feelings.

Best for you

[Kalyani]

The situation is that sometimes there is being aware knowingly (awareness aware of itself), other times there is being aware but the attention is on something else (senses appearances, thoughts, ...). Sometimes there is a clear sky, sometimes there are clouds. The light is always shining uninterruptedly.

Thank you for explains this, makes total sense and helps me understand what is happening.

I invite you to go for a walk in a park or in nature and observe what is going on. Look at the flow of life in whatever is : people, animals, trees, sounds, colors, sensations, etc ... See that there is no you, no Kalyani intervening.
Let me know about your comments and feelings.

Got a chance to do this today. Many moments felt like I was whatever the attention was shining on in that moments - the sounds, the sights. There was also a little period of time when I became aware of a stillness in which things unfolded. it was quite profound, but just a glimpse and then it slipped away. Trying to remember it now in order to describe it, I can’t recall what it was/how it felt, but I remember it was quite impressive.

Also, since there is no me doing anything. There is also no control over when the attention will focus entirely on thought or when awareness will be aware of itself. There is no controlling it. So seems futile that we are doing this, no? Then again, it’s happening all on it’s own :)

[warissem]

Good morning

Got a chance to do this today. Many moments felt like I was whatever the attention was shining on in that moments - the sounds, the sights. There was also a little period of time when I became aware of a stillness in which things unfolded.

Is being aware a becoming?
Is awareness (being aware) different from stillness?

it was quite profound, but just a glimpse and then it slipped away.

Are you aware before the glimpse, during the glimpse and after the glimpse?
All experiences come and go.

Trying to remember it now in order to describe it, I can’t recall what it was/how it felt, but I remember it was quite impressive.

It was an experience, it comes, it goes. The key is Being aware of it.

Also, since there is no me doing anything. There is also no control over when the attention will focus entirely on thought or when awareness will be aware of itself. There is no controlling it. So seems futile that we are doing this, no? Then again, it’s happening all on it’s own :)

Yes, good to see that. Is there still seeking?
If so what is missing?

Best for you

[Kalyani]

Is being aware a becoming?
Is awareness (being aware) different from stillness?

It isn’t a becoming, but things shift and change within the awareness. Awareness is still, that is true, always there in the same way.

Are you aware before the glimpse, during the glimpse and after the glimpse?

Aware always. I believe what I was trying to describe is a moment when awareness was purely focused on itself and it was a different feeling, what I described as profound.

Yes, good to see that. Is there still seeking?
If so what is missing?

Let me come back to you in a couple of days to report on the seeking :)

[warissem]

Hi Kalyani

Waiting for your feed back. Meanwhile, feel free to expose any lasting doubt here.

Best for you

[Kalyani]

Hi Warissem,

I took a week to see if there was seeking. Can’t say there is seeking. But also things are kind of the same as before we started the conversation. There were moments of seeing no me various times but then everything continues to function as always most of the time. Like as if there is a me.

The other day I noticed something, I went to put on my sweater in the morning and a thought appeared that there isn’t a me putting on a sweater. And then a great fear came over me. Maybe there is a fear in the way of seeing

[Kalyani]

I felt great fear of the thought there is not a me at the controls and not anyone at the controls of other bodies. It felt like falling into an abyss. Even as I write this I can recall this fear and feel it again, it’s a none-chilling feeling.