Guide request

[jazmine928]

Hi Elad!
I suppose when I really look, there's so much going on...thoughts, witnessing, sensations etc. And I think all of this combined is what is meant when I say "myself"...it's the whole show. But I can't find a single individual, but at the same time, I still feel like "me!" Sometimes I feel/thing I'm not "there" because I feel the same..just a flow of sensations, thoughts, etc.

[Elad]

Saying that all that together is what you mean by "myself" is fine as far as conventional talking goes. Yes, you know how to talk and think normal. Fortunately.

But it doesn't matter here. If by self you really just mean the stream of thoughts and sensations happening by itself, "all of it", you would all ready have the clear experience of no self. So what you need to look for is, what is it you still identify as a stable separate you?

LOOK . Many times.

Every time you think there is a you or "feel as if there is a you" (= belief plus sensations) look: What is taken to be a you? Is it a you?

[jazmine928]

I’ll keep looking! Starting to feel a little frustrated but I’ll stay with my experience! I think I’m getting stuck because I’m trying to look at what’s doing the looking and it feels nearly impossible!

[Elad]

I’ll keep looking! Starting to feel a little frustrated but I’ll stay with my experience! I think I’m getting stuck because I’m trying to look at what’s doing the looking and it feels nearly impossible!

It is not nearly impossible, it is impossible. However it is a fine direction of impossible. It will settle in the clarity of there being no self.

I recommend taking periods with this of sitting quietly, reducing movement.

Tell me soon how it goes - is there a self looking anywhere? Or is the seeing and seen, the experience and the experiencer inseperable?

[jazmine928]

Thanks so much for your support and not giving up on me! I know without a doubt that the way is inward..I feel close to this only when I am with my experience. Sometimes I doubt all of this because some “teachers” I have admired have said that it’s impossible to really do this. Or some (like Robert saltzman who I really like) say that “no self” is just non dual jargon and can’t be discovered. I’ve tangled myself up in nots over the years searching and searching.

Just took a walk with my dog and when I really notice what’s going on, there is definitely no separation from seer and seen…I can’t pull the two apart. I could and still can feel that I’m getting close. Even my dog could sense it…he kept stopping in the middle of the road to turn around and lick my face. I think I also get self conscious or something as I get close..like a giddiness creeping in and then a voice “it can’t be..get yourself together” creeps in. When I talk on the phone with my parents I just notice so profoundly the roles we play. It feels suffocating. I also feeler closer to this when I don’t think as much if that makes any sense. I love just watching how natural my dog is..certainly no “doer” in there…just a dog. I’m keeping on 😊

[Elad]

Beautiful Jessica, yes, just let it happen, and yes, it will only be seen in staying with "your" experience. It's really important to let go of everything other teachers or anyone else said, including me. Only ask, look, stay with direct experience. If you watch videos or read stuff that is nonduality or such, let all that go until we are finished here.

Write me soon again.

[jazmine928]

Hi Elad,
Noticing how this idea of “me” only arises with experience be it physical, emotional, thought etc. I can’t tease it apart from experience. Even if I close my eyes and sit really still, there is still the experience of being..there is no “I” apart from it..

[Elad]

Hi Elad,
Noticing how this idea of “me” only arises with experience be it physical, emotional, thought etc. I can’t tease it apart from experience. Even if I close my eyes and sit really still, there is still the experience of being..there is no “I” apart from it..

Right, there is no I apart from it. So what is "the I"? What do you see?

[jazmine928]

Hi Elad,
I can't find a separate "I" anywhere other than in my mind in the form of a thought. There is a noticing of experience but the experience comes first. I feel like I'm sort of in and out of this. Sometimes it seems so clear but subtle. I often doubt that I've "made " it. I also find myself enjoying being quiet and sitting still more than talking to people other than my immediate family. But I also notice myself acting and behaving in the same way and think "not much is different here..." But there is for sure a subtle shift happening and I can see and feel it when I'm alone (or with my dog) and quiet. I was just resting the other night on the couch and I honestly couldn't think of a way to make the moment any better than it already was..the moment is always perfect, it's the mind that gets in the way but I'm noticing that is losing it's grip. I'm also noticing a really strong aversion to "spiritual" books and videos. Not that im spenidng much time with them, but I'm noticing that it's all really here in this moment..seeing, feeling, touching, etc..I keep rubbing my fingers together and noticing it's just this! But then I wonder if I'm waking up, or just going crazy..

[Elad]

Hi Elad,
I can't find a separate "I" anywhere other than in my mind in the form of a thought. There is a noticing of experience but the experience comes first. I feel like I'm sort of in and out of this. Sometimes it seems so clear but subtle. I often doubt that I've "made " it. I also find myself enjoying being quiet and sitting still more than talking to people other than my immediate family. But I also notice myself acting and behaving in the same way and think "not much is different here..." But there is for sure a subtle shift happening and I can see and feel it when I'm alone (or with my dog) and quiet. I was just resting the other night on the couch and I honestly couldn't think of a way to make the moment any better than it already was..the moment is always perfect, it's the mind that gets in the way but I'm noticing that is losing it's grip. I'm also noticing a really strong aversion to "spiritual" books and videos. Not that im spenidng much time with them, but I'm noticing that it's all really here in this moment..seeing, feeling, touching, etc..I keep rubbing my fingers together and noticing it's just this! But then I wonder if I'm waking up, or just going crazy..

Wonderful!

Sounds like you shift between being with effortless direct experience seeing knowing versus going to believing in doubt thoughts.

Do you have to do anything with these doubt thoughts? Do you have to make them go away? Is it helpful to try and discuss with them?

Or just see them like every other thought, as a spontaneous phenomenon without self?

[jazmine928]

Hi Elad,
Still at it over here ...lol. Do you ever recommend people re-read the pointers? Sometimes when I really look at this, sometimes I feel like the thinker, but other times not. For example, if I'm actively engaged in thinking in a sort of problem solving way, that feels like "me." But then I might randomly have a "bad" thought and then "I" feel like the one saying "oh my gosh, that thoughts not me!" And sometimes "I" feel like the one who decides when to listen to a thought or not. Sometimes this search feels sort of tiring and I just think "eh..maybe I should just continue on as usual carrying this separate self around .."

[Elad]

Hi Elad,
Still at it over here ...lol. Do you ever recommend people re-read the pointers? Sometimes when I really look at this, sometimes I feel like the thinker, but other times not. For example, if I'm actively engaged in thinking in a sort of problem solving way, that feels like "me." But then I might randomly have a "bad" thought and then "I" feel like the one saying "oh my gosh, that thoughts not me!" And sometimes "I" feel like the one who decides when to listen to a thought or not. Sometimes this search feels sort of tiring and I just think "eh..maybe I should just continue on as usual carrying this separate self around .."

:)

Important: None of these thoughts will go away or need to go away for self to be seen through. The point is "only" that its fully clear that whatever experience is there, actually it hos no doer or no controller in it or behind it. I also "feel like a me" lot of the time. Why should that be a problem, why wish it a way? The difference is, it is much less sticky when it's clear that it is just shifting perspectives.

You didn't directly address my questions from last message. Do it! :)

Re-reading the conversation can be helpful, do it when you feel like it.

[jazmine928]

thank you! Yes I can see that I can just let the doubt thoughts be...I can see that there is no fixed "me." Like you said, changing perspectives but there is something always here and always present..I also notice that there are urges, likes, and dislikes that just go with this body/mind "me." For example, "I" don't enjoy really hot weather..never have, never will..but what "I" am feels more like a natural expression that can't be changed..like I have blue eyes and had no say in that.."I" like the color blue..it feels like a naturalness..happy Friday!

[Elad]

Is there something always here and always present which is a "you", a separate self? Or is the only thing always present direct experience itself, which cannot be reduced to subject or object, inside or outside?

Yes it's true that on a conventional level there are unique patters to each one of us, like there are to threes and flowers. Just without a self controller doer anyhwhere.

This video sums it up nicely, I think it might be helpful at this point (little break from the video cold turkey):

https://youtu.be/CPnTy_wTxL4?si=02gu0OjRdl-M0cY4

.....

So, there is no separate self and there has never been, is it true?

Anything not clear or incomplete?

How does it feel to see?

[jazmine928]

Hi Elad,
Thanks for sharing that video! I’ve always expected a sort of awakening to feel like past glimpses I’ve had in the past that were somewhat profound. When I’m alone, especially walking in the woods, in get this sense of peace and knowing about what we’ve been discussing. When I’m busy with my kids, job etc, it’s a little more muted. It’s definitely less sticky like you said but I don’t feel like the seeking is totally over although I will say, nothing beats direct experience! But why so many books and talks if it’s as simple as feeling the weight of the body and wind on my face!?! Sometimes I think I should/want to have a major satori experience and wonder why UG says awakening is impossible? I was thinking of joining Ilona’s deep look session tomorrow unless I shohld continue on my own?