Bring it on

[Windaway]

Hello Patrick,

But when breaking that down it starts to get a little weird and fuzzy. It's a false 'I' moving from label to label with assumption that the sensation felt 'in that area' is a fixed thing or noun being felt by the false 'I' centered in 'my' head 🙂

So wild to approach it like this, but have to admit I am getting a bit of the two worlds phenomenon where both options kinda makes sense. Of course I can move my attention from my toes to shoulder I just did it! VS. there are so many labels, approximations, and assumptions in that statement that it is absolutely meaningless.

YES, this is it! Great, way to put it!

There are two overlapping ways of experiencing WHAT IS HERE.

Now answer this:

Get into the I control my experience mode.
How does that feel in your body?
How does your experience react when viewed from that perspective?

Get into the wierd and fuzzy way to experience mode.
How does that feel in your body?
How does your experience react when viewed from that perspective?

Yes I can see that now, how thinking is thinking, but I have never considered it like that before. Variations in intensity of thoughts makes it FEEL different but I can see how it is all thinking.

YES, keep on that track.
How does your body (aka sensing) react when you see this?

One world is presence and awareness of all that is coming into experience.

The other is being 'swept away' into a thought parade where 'I' am the hero of a scene or home movie, usually taking place in the future or the past, with some type of conflict that is being played out and I am completely intertwined with the 'I' and its struggles as if it is real and actually happening.

So I guess when I use that term 'swept away' its another way of saying how quickly and invisibly I am pulled into those future and past scenarios and get completely intertwined with the 'I'.

You are making a big deal about this "swept away". From what you are sharing being "swept away" is simply the human experience. Don't expect this to disappear. You may get more and more attracted to the presence and awareness over time.

The way to be less attracted to this 'swept away' is to not make a big deal out of it when it appears.
On the contrary, when it appears there are not only the stories that are presented. There is also sensing and perceiving. You can focus on that too. Instead fo trying to step out from, try to dive in!

Yes its already weird to talk about it and use 'I' to describe being swept away, but it would also be weird to not talk about it that way because it does seem like awareness checks out and the false I just takes over for awhile, whether its for 10 seconds or a minute or whatever.

Most of my experience is being taken over by the false sense of "I".
That's fine to me. The more I relax into it the more peace is present.
I am not talking about diving into stories. But diving into sensing and perceiving.
You may have trouble at work. (that the stories)
There is probalby a body reaction. (that the sensing) Dive into the sensing. try.

It is both, but of course the negative thought parades feel more troublesome.

Catastrophizing over conflict with sister-in-law and playing out scenarios and what could happen if it all goes wrong.

Fantasizing about work projects being lauded and ensuing social validation where everything turns out roses.

There is a veracity and something believable about being "in" these thought parades, similar to a dream feeling real as it is happening, that probably contributes to me using the term 'swept away'.

That is fantastic that you can see that both are trick of the mind. Perfect.

Instead of using "swept away" try to use the word "thinking is manifesting" or some variation of that.

A couple pages ago I was asking about our overall goal....are we exposing and uprooting the false self's hold on experience? You replied no, but there is still something there...somehow I am judging or separating or seeing those particular episodes as false and therefore they shouldn't be there. Kind of thinking out loud here but there is definitely something there.

Well, there is a belief that some experiences are better and more valuable than others.
Example: Meditative state are better than being at a boring work state.

This belief has 2 roots.
(A) There is another experience that this one that I am having
(B) The interpretation fo the mind about what is happening are real.

I am trying to point to you directly at these roots.

Analogy that pops up for me while thinking about it....when being annoyed by a loud noise I never judge or question the hearing of it or perceiving of it, as if I should not have heard it.

The hearing, the perceiving are juicy.

The mind's interpretation of this experience as an annoyance is the problem.
But is not like you there a choice of not being annoyed. BUT you can focus on the sensing of this annoyance and THAT is juicy.

Like right now I'm deciding what to make for dinner. Being shaped by:

What I have in the kitchen: ingredients
What sounds good: what I've made lately, what I've eaten today
How much time I want to spend in kitchen: I want it to be fast and easy
How hungry I am: how much to make

It feels like I am going to cook what I want to eat based on all those factors, but I can also see how that is like saying the stream is deciding whether to turn right or left. So wild to think about it that way. All of the above factors feel so personal but they also have an 'I' at the heart of all of them.

But I do have a choice! I can either spend time making refried beans or not. In the past I've had these exact tacos and they tasted better with beans.

Are you saying that referencing the past and making a decision based on that memory is the equivalent of the water's trajectory being shaped by the mountain?

There is always a sense of choice. But you never actually find the individual object that you are choosing from.

Hum that maybe to much at the moment.

Let's approach it that way.:

(A) Did you choose to like tacos or beans? Did you choose what you like and dislike in food? Did you choose to have the skill to get a kob that allow you to own a kitchen where you can cook?
My point is that you did not choose the condition from which you base your choices. And you were conditioned by your environment, parents, family friends, etc... and you chose none of them.

(B) You are ALWAYS limited in the option between which you choose.

(C) You have mostly no choice about what really matters. When we talk about choice it has to be choices that are meaningful. What is meaningful is what you feel mostly. Can you choose your emotion?
If you have a friend in jail saying to him that he can choose the color of the wall will probably not make him feeling free.
If your friend is ding of cancer saying to him that he can choose between eating a pizza or tacos would most probably not make him feel that he has a choice. Same for depression death, accident etc...

[PatrickM]

Hi David.

Get into the I control my experience mode.
How does that feel in your body?
How does your experience react when viewed from that perspective?

Okay so I'm doing the same exercise where attention shifts from sensation to sensation. Default mode is to assume I am controlling that shifting and it feels normal, well-oiled, familiar.

Get into the wierd and fuzzy way to experience mode.
How does that feel in your body?
How does your experience react when viewed from that perspective?

But when questioning or going into the 'I' that is assumed to be controlling everything it's like the gears start clunking into each other and it all breaks down.

Then just sat with it for awhile because that didn't feel like the purpose of the exercise, so did a more general 'I control my experience' and 'I am in control of my experience of the day' as it is morning here and I am starting to figure out the day.

And it's so interesting because on one hand the statement itself 'I am in control of my experience of the day' feels satisfying and familiar. But on the other hand it feels like that is subjugating or putting shackles on experience because it will always be either a confirmation or judgment of 'I'.

To go into weird and fuzzy mode when planning the day and say 'I am not in control of the experience of the day' at first feels strange and fearful. But on the other hand it also feels non-limiting and freeing and I can see how that would allow experience to be experience instead of constantly referring back to 'I'.

So again getting a bit of both worlds.

YES, keep on that track.
How does your body (aka sensing) react when you see this?

To see that it is all thinking feels like a relief.

You are making a big deal about this "swept away". From what you are sharing being "swept away" is simply the human experience. Don't expect this to disappear. You may get more and more attracted to the presence and awareness over time.

Okay yeah there might be some type of belief here. I might be making some assumptions that these thought parades or home movies are evidence of the separate self and as the false or separate self falls away then so too will the believability of these home movies.

Most of my experience is being taken over by the false sense of "I".
That's fine to me. The more I relax into it the more peace is present.
I am not talking about diving into stories. But diving into sensing and perceiving.
You may have trouble at work. (that the stories)
There is probalby a body reaction. (that the sensing) Dive into the sensing. try.

Just so I am clear on this, and using the example of fantasizing about epic social validation due to successful work projects....are you saying to go into the feeling of acceptance to see and feel where it lands in the body?

Well, there is a belief that some experiences are better and more valuable than others.
Example: Meditative state are better than being at a boring work state.

Okay yes that resonates with me.

My point is that you did not choose the condition from which you base your choices. And you were conditioned by your environment, parents, family friends, etc... and you chose none of them.

Okay that clears it up a bit. And I can see how the one who wants to control the experience of the day would want to assume otherwise🙂

Cheers.

[Windaway]

Hello Patrick,

You are in a great place. I am under the feeling that you found the gap from where to explore and keep unravel actuality from illusion.
Am I correct?

But when questioning or going into the 'I' that is assumed to be controlling everything it's like the gears start clunking into each other and it all breaks down.

Tell me more about this break down.
In fact don’t tell me, just make this break down happen again. And feel, explore let EVERYTHING break down. And see what remain, if anything remain at all.

To go into weird and fuzzy mode when planning the day and say 'I am not in control of the experience of the day' at first feels strange and fearful. But on the other hand it also feels non-limiting and freeing and I can see how that would allow experience to be experience instead of constantly referring back to 'I'.

What more do you want than feeling unlimited and freedom?
This is the end of seeking.

What can be more simpler than letting experience be what it is?
Isn’t that another way to define peacefulness?

If you have seen the illusion of the separate self, and you found the place of unlimited freedom and peace. There is not much more this guidance can show you.

Okay yeah there might be some type of belief here. I might be making some assumptions that these thought parades or home movies are evidence of the separate self and as the false or separate self falls away then so too will the believability of these home movies.

Great! See that a belief is simply another thought.

Just so I am clear on this, and using the example of fantasizing about epic social validation due to successful work projects....are you saying to go into the feeling of acceptance to see and feel where it lands in the body?

We often use though to avoid uncomfortable feeling in the body. So there can be a sensation/emotion corresponding to the fantasy you are having. Connect to this fantasy and explore how the body react to it or if there is a sensation “causing” this fantasy.
Approach with this exploration curiosity. There is nothing to resolve or to destroy.



Do you have some specific question before I ask you the question to asses the crossing to the gateless gate?

[PatrickM]

Hi David.

You are in a great place. I am under the feeling that you found the gap from where to explore and keep unravel actuality from illusion.
Am I correct?

Yes. And both sides of the gap are more identifiable.

Tell me more about this break down.
In fact don’t tell me, just make this break down happen again. And feel, explore let EVERYTHING break down. And see what remain, if anything remain at all.

Yes I know what you mean. There can be a penetrating inquiry into what is really happening and the mind will come up with answers loaded with labels and approximations, and as those statements fall apart there is still this presence or awareness or sensing.

What more do you want than feeling unlimited and freedom?
This is the end of seeking.
What can be more simpler than letting experience be what it is?
Isn’t that another way to define peacefulness?

Yes this resonates with me. That last piece we were discussing, the habit of controlling the day or controlling experience, is so habitual and it feels like I am seeing that differently now.

We often use though to avoid uncomfortable feeling in the body. So there can be a sensation/emotion corresponding to the fantasy you are having. Connect to this fantasy and explore how the body react to it or if there is a sensation “causing” this fantasy.
Approach with this exploration curiosity. There is nothing to resolve or to destroy.

That last line in particular resonates with me.

Do you have some specific question before I ask you the question to asses the crossing to the gateless gate?

I don't think so. Just noticing a fear pop up when you asked that last question "You mean I'm done?!!".

So I looked into that "You mean I'm done?!" in the same way as the previous post where I was looking into controlling the experience of the day. The kneejerk reaction "I am not done I still need to do X and Y and Z" is so familiar but when I look at the "I" and the "done" in that statement it all starts to fall apart and gets exposed as assumptions and approximations. Kinda reiterates that, to use your words "the separate self comes forth in your experience but is not real" and that really lands for me. Also suggests that the separate self is not a noun, and seeing how all of these are not nouns in direct experience (sensation, thought, body, separate self) has been really juicy for me.

Cheers.

[Windaway]

Hello Patrick,

So I looked into that "You mean I'm done?!" in the same way as the previous post where I was looking into controlling the experience of the day. The kneejerk reaction "I am not done I still need to do X and Y and Z" is so familiar but when I look at the "I" and the "done" in that statement it all starts to fall apart and gets exposed as assumptions and approximations. Kinda reiterates that, to use your words "the separate self comes forth in your experience but is not real" and that really lands for me. Also suggests that the separate self is not a noun, and seeing how all of these are not nouns in direct experience (sensation, thought, body, separate self) has been really juicy for me.

Exactly!

This process of discovery never ends.
There is much more to discover.
You have seen through the separate self and are now clearly in a nice exploration dynamic.

Crossing the gate in LU is not much, it doesn't mean anything really.
What is meaningful is your inside and discovery. What is important is what you have found out for yourself about yourself. Only that has value.

Those questions are used to see if there is anything to clarify further.
These answers will be reviewed by me and three other guides.


Please answer the following questions in one message. Make sure you answer each one below "ANSWER" so it is easy for the other guides to track what questions you are answering individually. Make sure to answer all questions. Take all the time you need and enjoy. After receiving your answers maybe we will inquire more together or maybe 3 other guides will have some things to inquire into with you. After that you and I will talk about onwards, lovely opportunities to stay in touch and exchange with "like-minded/hearted". Remember, answer only from direct experience, not from conviction or past experience. If something doesn't feel possible to answer, stay honest to that. Keep it simple and real. Enjoy.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

ANSWER:

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

ANSWER:

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.

ANSWER:

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

ANSWER:

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

ANSWER:

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

ANSWER:

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

ANSWER:

8) Anything to add?

ANSWER:

[PatrickM]

This process of discovery never ends.
There is much more to discover.
You have seen through the separate self and are now clearly in a nice exploration dynamic.

Crossing the gate in LU is not much, it doesn't mean anything really.
What is meaningful is your inside and discovery. What is important is what you have found out for yourself about yourself. Only that has value.

Those questions are used to see if there is anything to clarify further.
These answers will be reviewed by me and three other guides.

Okay thanks David sounds good.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

ANSWER:

No. And there never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

ANSWER:

Identification with body and mind creates a fixed perspective and results in the illusion of the separate self.

There's a belief that 'I' am in here thinking and everything else is out there.
There's a belief that 'I' will no longer exist when the body dies.

Thus, everything that arises will need to be managed, understood and strategized in order to maintain the illusion of 'I' and keep 'I' safe. This creates a never ending loop of interpreting sensation from the perspective of the separate self which then reinforces and perpetuates it.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.

ANSWER:

It is a relief to see this.

I understood it intellectually when we started this dialogue but digging in and looking from direct experience has created some much needed proof. To be able to go into direct experience and see what is happening before or without thought has been quite revealing.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

ANSWER:

There was a habitual and ingrained assumption that sensations, thoughts, body are all nouns and fixed identifiable things. When looking closer in direct experience all of those assumptions fall apart, and without those false assumptions the whole foundation of the separate self starts to crumble.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.


ANSWER:

This is a big one for 'me' and there is probably a bit more to discover here.

The example we discussed in the guidance was the simple act of moving attention from one sensation to another within the body. That ingrained and effortless conclusion that 'I' am moving attention from sensation to sensation quickly falls apart when direct experience investigates 'I', 'moving', and sensation.

That same disintegration could be felt when looking at control of experience or the control of experience of the day. The habitual assumption is that 'I' control the experience of the day, but that too falls apart with direct experience investigation and frees experience to be as it is.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

ANSWER:

How does it work! That has been a familiar motto for so long🙂 This guidance has helped reveal that stuff just arises and the separate self's perspective of it is loaded with approximations and shorthand lingo that isn't really the truth.

And compared to the beginning of the guidance there is more of an acceptance of not needing to know how it works. Or said another way...it's become clear that whatever conclusions the 'I' comes up with will always be a derivative of the truth.

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

ANSWER:

Right now it feels like clear seeing is the most important thing. There are plenty of worldly responsibilities but those will take care of themselves.

That last bit I discussed with David....there was a fear that popped up when he asked about answering the final questions saying 'You mean I'm done?!'.

Seeing the 'I' and inquiring into the 'done' in that statement 'I am done?!" feels most relevant to me right now and is a good overall representation of clear seeing.

8) Anything to add?

ANSWER:

I don't think so. Just want to send some gratitude towards David and this community. I started going on retreats over the past couple years and kept having the same reaction when the retreat would end, along the lines of.... 'It is extraordinarily awesome that something like this even exists!'. And it is the same now ie for this truth-driven space to be here is really awesome🙂

Cheers.

[Windaway]

Hello Patrick,

Some guide have looked at you answers and have some questions here there are:

A question to deepen, he writes:

"Right now it feels like clear seeing is the most important thing. There are plenty of worldly responsibilities but those will take care of themselves.

That last bit I discussed with David....there was a fear that popped up when he asked about answering the final questions saying 'You mean I'm done?!'.

Seeing the 'I' and inquiring into the 'done' in that statement 'I am done?!" feels most relevant to me right now and is a good overall representation of clear seeing."

Is there anyone in control of or responsible for clear seeing?

Is there a you that sees or don't see?

I hear the expression of values and interests in this.. Is there anyone responsible for that they are this way?

And what emotions and thoughts come up in reaction to this line of questions?

[PatrickM]

Hi David.

Is there anyone in control of or responsible for clear seeing?

No. I was equating direct experience to clear seeing but your point is taken on board. If there is a delineation between clear seeing and separate self then that is probably evidence of a doer co-opting direct experience.

Is there a you that sees or don't see?

No.

I hear the expression of values and interests in this.. Is there anyone responsible for that they are this way?

Okay the wording in this question has me puzzled a bit but I think I know what you're asking. There is no one that flips back and forth between direct experience and separate self mode. The 'I' thought just arises.

And what emotions and thoughts come up in reaction to this line of questions?

A little bit of everything. Some frustration at how hard it is to discuss this using words. Some recognition that the one who wants to see clearly or 'do' direct experience is the very thing that clear seeing is trying to see through! And a flash of fear 'I thought I had it!' but also not really believing there is anything to get or have.

Cheers.

[Windaway]

Hello Patrick,

We are in discussion with the guides.
I will let you know.

David

[Windaway]

Hello Patrick,

You have officially passed the gateless gate.
The admin will send you information about resources and ways to keep connected.

I will send you I private message with more information and a way to keep the exploration ongoing.
I am quite buzzy those days be patient, please. ^^

Any pressing questions you can reach me here or by PM.

Take care ^^

David

[PatrickM]

Okay thanks much David!

I really appreciate your time and pointings over the past month, it's been awesome. Will keep an eye out for those additional resources.

Cheers.

[Windaway]

Hello Patrick,

I send you an email. Did you received it?

[PatrickM]

Ahh yup I got it! Thanks David for sending that additional info, so good to see that the community continues in those groups.

Thanks again David for your pointings over the past month. Looking forward to our paths crossing down the road.

Cheers.

[Windaway]

See you around ^^

Take care

David