Ps.: Everywhere where I write IT, it could be "me" and vice versa.
Resistance is ignorance. I woke up with this message...
Sharing
Re: Sharing
Hi Sebi,
Your last two posts gave me goose-bumps and tears of joy, especially when you wrote THIS IS IT in capital letters!
It seems that there is this one sticky issue:
Let's look closer into this label "grasping", where is it pointing? I can tell you there's only one place to look and that is into the sensations of the body. Any self-referring label is pointing towards sensations. We feel sensations, but we also say we feel a description of a sensation such as sad, angry, fearful etc. Can you discern the difference? Feeling as a descriptive label is not DE, and emotions are descriptive labels, they are not DE. Can you see this?
So, looking into "grasping":
What sensations are being felt that the mind gives the label of "grasping?"
What thought-train arises from this sensation/label "grasping"?
If you look into "grasping" closely, can you see that the label FOLLOWS from, is ABOUT the Sensations?
Or, does it seem to be that way? Does a thought make it that way?
This selfing mechanism has been going for a long time and it has had, and will still continue to have, many uses both for our survival and for navigating our way as best we can through conventional reality.
If you are 100% sure that there is a "self", "I" or "me" that experiences things, then you are still hanging onto the delusion that there is a separate self functioning. From the replies you have given here it seems to me that this delusion has been seen through by you. Now only the illusion remains. The: it seems to be as if......, that appears and then disappears.
And there is also a thought that notices those reappearances! It is a perpetual game of hide and seek!
The analogy of a mirage in the desert is a helpful way to grok this:
The delusion is that there is water over there.
The illusion is that it is known that there is no water over there, but there is still an appearance of what could be given a label "water".
With love,
Rowena
Your last two posts gave me goose-bumps and tears of joy, especially when you wrote THIS IS IT in capital letters!
It seems that there is this one sticky issue:
Yes, well spotted.A grasping which has no root and no direction, like thoughts, emotions. A bit of fear of loosing control, of dying.What exactly did you find?
Let's look closer into this label "grasping", where is it pointing? I can tell you there's only one place to look and that is into the sensations of the body. Any self-referring label is pointing towards sensations. We feel sensations, but we also say we feel a description of a sensation such as sad, angry, fearful etc. Can you discern the difference? Feeling as a descriptive label is not DE, and emotions are descriptive labels, they are not DE. Can you see this?
So, looking into "grasping":
What sensations are being felt that the mind gives the label of "grasping?"
What thought-train arises from this sensation/label "grasping"?
If you look into "grasping" closely, can you see that the label FOLLOWS from, is ABOUT the Sensations?
Yes!The me is an idea. It’s like a dream, which is not aware, that it is only a dream, And it lives in a dream, and it is afraid of waking up, since it knows, that that would mean, that is going to be inexistent in that very moment. It can keep up it’s existence through separation.
Are you absolutely 100% sure that the insights are still experienced by a "self", or a "me"?The insights can be delightful, but it is still experienced by a „self”. It happens with „me”. This perspective comes after the insight, during it is not there. But somehow it reboots itself again and again. Every morning it is there. It looses it’s energy, when there is exhaustion in the body. It can’t reboot so easily, and it looses the control more frequently. I have more insights when the body is tired. And after a good sleep it boots again with great force. That’s why waking up is always followed by contraction. Thoughts rush, a to-do list rolls out.
Or, does it seem to be that way? Does a thought make it that way?
This selfing mechanism has been going for a long time and it has had, and will still continue to have, many uses both for our survival and for navigating our way as best we can through conventional reality.
If you are 100% sure that there is a "self", "I" or "me" that experiences things, then you are still hanging onto the delusion that there is a separate self functioning. From the replies you have given here it seems to me that this delusion has been seen through by you. Now only the illusion remains. The: it seems to be as if......, that appears and then disappears.
And there is also a thought that notices those reappearances! It is a perpetual game of hide and seek!
The analogy of a mirage in the desert is a helpful way to grok this:
The delusion is that there is water over there.
The illusion is that it is known that there is no water over there, but there is still an appearance of what could be given a label "water".
With love,
Rowena
"Experience is an incredible explosion of energy appearing in inconceivable, infinite consciousness." Peter Brown, from Yoga of Radiant Presence,
Re: Sharing
Language can be really confusing, and can tie us up in knots trying to describe "What's Happening".Ps.: Everywhere where I write IT, it could be "me" and vice versa.
One good thought to hang on to is that there are no nouns, everything is VERBING!
Drop the I am, drop the it is etc.
Why do we need an "it is" when we talk about the weather? It's just a language convention adopted for communication.
Looking (out of the window)
Seeing
Thinking (raining)
Sipping coffee,
Reading
Typing words
Thinking (about what to type next)
Thinking about standing up.
Typing words
Standing up,
Walking.......etc. etc.
Just flow happening.
That's a great message. What could you be resisting that you are ignorant about?Resistance is ignorance. I woke up with this message...
An opportunity to turn the interpretations around!
What is Resistance other than a thought/concept/label?
Resistance is a sensation that is felt.
Go deeper still.
What are you resisting?
Maybe you don't know..... (Ignorance?)
So look deeper into the body sensations......
Maybe there are other sensations that are under the sensation of resisting?
Sensations with labels such as vulnerable, insecure, fearful.
Does this make sense to you?
Once it is seen through the illusion of the separate self, the real exploration into the selfing mechanism get's underway, calling for us to explore deep into the body for all the sensations that we have avoided over the years to be brought into the light.
Sensations and perhaps memories that are needing to be held with care, love and compassion.
THE GUEST HOUSE
This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.
A joy, a depression, a meanness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.
Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they’re a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still, treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.
The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
meet them at the door laughing,
and invite them in.
Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.
Copyright 1997 by Coleman Barks. Posted with permission. All rights reserved.
From The Illuminated Rumi
Please let me know what is arising as the above is contemplated?
What thoughts trains are arising?
What are they pointing to in the body?
Labels about sensations
Where in the body are the sensations?
With love,
Rowena
"Experience is an incredible explosion of energy appearing in inconceivable, infinite consciousness." Peter Brown, from Yoga of Radiant Presence,
Re: Sharing
Hi Sebi,
How is everything going with you?
Just checking in!
Love,
Rowena
How is everything going with you?
Just checking in!
Love,
Rowena
"Experience is an incredible explosion of energy appearing in inconceivable, infinite consciousness." Peter Brown, from Yoga of Radiant Presence,
Re: Sharing
Hi Rowena!
Sorry for disappearing. There was work to do, but I also wanted to take a bit of time and watch what is going to happen, after our last correspondence. Around that time, I could let go all the expectations, what should be here, what not, what emotions, how many thoughts etc…
I was curious if this state of freedom and letting everything through stays, or not. And I can say now, that it has grown it’s roots. Sometimes there is frustration, there is fear of the future, but it feels like I’m playing a role, I’m saying things and I’m lamenting to my mother and friends etc., but somehow these words and thoughts doesn’t stay and the contraction caused by them is also not so heavy.
So it’s still a rollercoaster, a flip-flopping, but it’s like watching a guy screaming on the rollercoaster from a save place, and not sitting on the goddamn rollercoaster.
As if there were 2 realities. One on stage and one off stage. I recognized that “normal” life, problems, duties etc are enforcing the “on stage” persona play, and the reading, listening to podcasts about the dream, meditation, talking about this, helps to live “off stage” moments.
Maybe there will be a time, when there is more balance in this life, and the quantity of thoughts and the amplitude of feelings, and the general state, mood etc. won’t be so dependent on the things I do, say listen to. But as it is now, is just fine. What is important, that there is no identification with all this. And I’m just a deep breath away from this shelter (off stage), where the mind calms, where I can jump out for a moment from the struggles of the separated self, and take a bath in the flowing river of life, and let it be as it is, as it will be.
Let’ have a look on your nice questions:
Regarding your 2. leter:
I think I’m exactly in this state described in Rumis poem, and what you call „exploration into the selfing mechanism”.
Please let me know what is arising as the above is contemplated?
I see now, how just one thought, one little „this shouldn’t be here, instead this should be...”, can turn life from heaven to hell, and this goes for every second of life. Since, I see this, and the letting go happened, it’s much easier. Everything is welcomed, I don’t care any more... your will be done...
There is just one sentence, which causes contraction:
Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.
This isn’t sent from anywhere, „anybody” to another „anybody”. This sentence contains duality, hence it is not true.
Hugs
Sebi
Sorry for disappearing. There was work to do, but I also wanted to take a bit of time and watch what is going to happen, after our last correspondence. Around that time, I could let go all the expectations, what should be here, what not, what emotions, how many thoughts etc…
I was curious if this state of freedom and letting everything through stays, or not. And I can say now, that it has grown it’s roots. Sometimes there is frustration, there is fear of the future, but it feels like I’m playing a role, I’m saying things and I’m lamenting to my mother and friends etc., but somehow these words and thoughts doesn’t stay and the contraction caused by them is also not so heavy.
So it’s still a rollercoaster, a flip-flopping, but it’s like watching a guy screaming on the rollercoaster from a save place, and not sitting on the goddamn rollercoaster.
As if there were 2 realities. One on stage and one off stage. I recognized that “normal” life, problems, duties etc are enforcing the “on stage” persona play, and the reading, listening to podcasts about the dream, meditation, talking about this, helps to live “off stage” moments.
Maybe there will be a time, when there is more balance in this life, and the quantity of thoughts and the amplitude of feelings, and the general state, mood etc. won’t be so dependent on the things I do, say listen to. But as it is now, is just fine. What is important, that there is no identification with all this. And I’m just a deep breath away from this shelter (off stage), where the mind calms, where I can jump out for a moment from the struggles of the separated self, and take a bath in the flowing river of life, and let it be as it is, as it will be.
Let’ have a look on your nice questions:
Yes, I see the labeling.Let's look closer into this label "grasping", where is it pointing? I can tell you there's only one place to look and that is into the sensations of the body. Any self-referring label is pointing towards sensations. We feel sensations, but we also say we feel a description of a sensation such as sad, angry, fearful etc. Can you discern the difference? Feeling as a descriptive label is not DE, and emotions are descriptive labels, they are not DE. Can you see this?
Contraction in the heart, pulse goes up, breath becomes faster, more shallow. It is a bit like suffocation.So, looking into "grasping":
What sensations are being felt that the mind gives the label of "grasping?"
It’s existential fear. Related to the future. That things won’t be the way the I wants to. A disbelief, that what will be, will be ok, and can be accepted.What thought-train arises from this sensation/label "grasping"?
It’s a nice metaphor for the control freak nature of the I.If you look into "grasping" closely, can you see that the label FOLLOWS from, is ABOUT the Sensations?
Regarding your 2. leter:
I think I’m exactly in this state described in Rumis poem, and what you call „exploration into the selfing mechanism”.
Please let me know what is arising as the above is contemplated?
I see now, how just one thought, one little „this shouldn’t be here, instead this should be...”, can turn life from heaven to hell, and this goes for every second of life. Since, I see this, and the letting go happened, it’s much easier. Everything is welcomed, I don’t care any more... your will be done...
Openness, open windows, flying, fresh air...these come to mind...What thoughts trains are arising?
Relaxation.What are they pointing to in the body?
Freedom, lightness, the calmness everything has a sence…Labels about sensations
Calmness, warmth, relaxed muscles. Deep breath.Where in the body are the sensations?
There is just one sentence, which causes contraction:
Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.
This isn’t sent from anywhere, „anybody” to another „anybody”. This sentence contains duality, hence it is not true.
Hugs
Sebi
Re: Sharing
Hi Sebi,
Give a nod to the thoughts and the fear that things won't ever be the way I/we/you want them to be.
There is no I/we/you, there's only thoughts arising.
Go back and be with the sensations and notice what changes, have the thoughts changed at all?
I'm not sure if I sent you this video:
https://youtu.be/jKX1llYtlKE?si=Hj2f27P4aXCk9hKY
"Looking at Fear" Meditation
Is there an "I" that cares or doesn't care?
I am splitting hairs a bit here, because I think I understand what you are saying, but, for clarity's sake:
Can any separate entity with a will be found in DE?
What is this "will" to which you refer?
Do you think that you are now ready to receive the final questions?
If you feel ready I will forward them on to you and then pass them to other guides to review.
Please let me know.
With love,
Rowena
PS I am sending you another exercise to look at while you decide about the final questions!
You've got it exactly right. It can be like a roller-coaster, and life will always present the unexpected. The thing is that now you see through the illusion there is less and less identification with what's happening. Let the 're-programming' continue!Maybe there will be a time, when there is more balance in this life, and the quantity of thoughts and the amplitude of feelings, and the general state, mood etc. won’t be so dependent on the things I do, say listen to. But as it is now, is just fine. What is important, that there is no identification with all this. And I’m just a deep breath away from this shelter (off stage), where the mind calms, where I can jump out for a moment from the struggles of the separated self, and take a bath in the flowing river of life, and let it be as it is, as it will be.
When these sensations arise again, can you BE with those sensations in your body? Can you hold the space with CURIOSITY for these movements of energy to work their way through without wishing that they leave? Watch how the sensations are ever changing.What sensations are being felt that the mind gives the label of "grasping?"
Contraction in the heart, pulse goes up, breath becomes faster, more shallow. It is a bit like suffocation.
Thoughts arising from the sensations.What thought-train arises from this sensation/label "grasping"?
It’s existential fear. Related to the future. That things won’t be the way the I wants to. A disbelief, that what will be, will be ok, and can be accepted.
Give a nod to the thoughts and the fear that things won't ever be the way I/we/you want them to be.
There is no I/we/you, there's only thoughts arising.
Go back and be with the sensations and notice what changes, have the thoughts changed at all?
I'm not sure if I sent you this video:
https://youtu.be/jKX1llYtlKE?si=Hj2f27P4aXCk9hKY
"Looking at Fear" Meditation
Yes, I think you are :)I think I’m exactly in this state described in Rumis poem, and what you call „exploration into the selfing mechanism”.
Please let me know what is arising as the above is contemplated?
Look carefully here on two counts:I see now, how just one thought, one little „this shouldn’t be here, instead this should be...”, can turn life from heaven to hell, and this goes for every second of life. Since, I see this, and the letting go happened, it’s much easier. Everything is welcomed, I don’t care any more... your will be done...
Is there an "I" that cares or doesn't care?
To whom are you referring here?"your will be done"
I am splitting hairs a bit here, because I think I understand what you are saying, but, for clarity's sake:
Can any separate entity with a will be found in DE?
What is this "will" to which you refer?
Beautiful!What thoughts trains are arising?
Openness, open windows, flying, fresh air...these come to mind...
What are they pointing to in the body?
Relaxation.
Labels about sensations
Freedom, lightness, the calmness everything has a sence…
Where in the body are the sensations?
Calmness, warmth, relaxed muscles. Deep breath.
Great! Well spotted!There is just one sentence, which causes contraction:
Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.
This isn’t sent from anywhere, „anybody” to another „anybody”. This sentence contains duality, hence it is not true.
Do you think that you are now ready to receive the final questions?
If you feel ready I will forward them on to you and then pass them to other guides to review.
Please let me know.
With love,
Rowena
PS I am sending you another exercise to look at while you decide about the final questions!
"Experience is an incredible explosion of energy appearing in inconceivable, infinite consciousness." Peter Brown, from Yoga of Radiant Presence,
Re: Sharing
DEEPER BODY INVESTIGATION
Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen.
Repeat the exercise several times.
Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?
(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?
(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any 'knowing' that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
With love,
Rowena
Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen.
Repeat the exercise several times.
Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?
(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?
(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any 'knowing' that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
With love,
Rowena
"Experience is an incredible explosion of energy appearing in inconceivable, infinite consciousness." Peter Brown, from Yoga of Radiant Presence,
Re: Sharing
Hi Rowena!
I would love to chat and share, and there is a bit of sadness, that this ends here probably... There is also curiosity towards your story. And there is also gratitude. because I think this was a big help foremost in 2 things. To have a much clearer inquiry, to distinguish much more between DE and everything else. Aaaand what has changed maybe the most, and is currently as it seems permanent, is the perspective of letting everything in. This gives this wings...It’s freedom, freshness, curiousness....and love. Sad there is no word for English for romantic love, but it’s kinda that. Crazy romantic teen love... Haha... And interestingly this allowing and turning to everything with love and curiosity, leads to the immanent feeling, of THIS IS ALL THAT IS and THIS IS JUST HAPPENING. Somehow this movie state stayed...It doesn’t goes away...More and more I feel like an actor, there is hearing this voice from somewhere, it is often like it would speak from a script.
Same when you drive a car...you see just what is in front of you, the rest is memory and assumptions...
When I write experience, it is also somehow limiting... Instead I could write .... limiting the „what is happening”...
Form is emptiness, emptiness is form, so it is with feeling, conception, volition, and consciousness.” These five skandhas make up your body and mind.
The labeling is based on the past and our assumptions are based on the future, taking the past experience as a pattern, coloring it with our wishes and fears. Hence we are continously living in the past and in our wishes, assumptions. That's why there is this immense freshness and couriosity, when you see all there is again, as it is.
Like the Heart Sutra, this makes also perfect sence suddenly:
"For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then shall I know, even as also I am known."
Hugs
Sebi
Haha, take it easy :) It’s just a figure of speech. I could write, whatever happens, that is welcome, that is necessary.To whom are you referring here?
I am splitting hairs a bit here, because I think I understand what you are saying, but, for clarity's sake:
Can any separate entity with a will be found in DE?
What is this "will" to which you refer?
The FINAL questions...Oh, that sounds like from St. Peter... :)Do you think that you are now ready to receive the final questions?
I would love to chat and share, and there is a bit of sadness, that this ends here probably... There is also curiosity towards your story. And there is also gratitude. because I think this was a big help foremost in 2 things. To have a much clearer inquiry, to distinguish much more between DE and everything else. Aaaand what has changed maybe the most, and is currently as it seems permanent, is the perspective of letting everything in. This gives this wings...It’s freedom, freshness, curiousness....and love. Sad there is no word for English for romantic love, but it’s kinda that. Crazy romantic teen love... Haha... And interestingly this allowing and turning to everything with love and curiosity, leads to the immanent feeling, of THIS IS ALL THAT IS and THIS IS JUST HAPPENING. Somehow this movie state stayed...It doesn’t goes away...More and more I feel like an actor, there is hearing this voice from somewhere, it is often like it would speak from a script.
No connection.(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labeled ‘body’.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
No.(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
It’s the same.(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labeled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?
This is just like the apple exercise. If I unlabel it completely, there is just love and curiosity.(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colors and shapes?
Only thoughts, memory.(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any 'knowing' that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
Same when you drive a car...you see just what is in front of you, the rest is memory and assumptions...
Only the movie haha... And the 2 little hand stuff are also part of it.(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
These are all labels. Actually it would be hard to describe, what it is like....what sensations there are...rubbing, pressure etc. But these are somehow also just labels and therefore they are limiting the experience.(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
When I write experience, it is also somehow limiting... Instead I could write .... limiting the „what is happening”...
Same. Labels. I never understood the Heart sutra, when I was chanting it everyday. Now it’s completely logoical:(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labeled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
Form is emptiness, emptiness is form, so it is with feeling, conception, volition, and consciousness.” These five skandhas make up your body and mind.
The labeling is based on the past and our assumptions are based on the future, taking the past experience as a pattern, coloring it with our wishes and fears. Hence we are continously living in the past and in our wishes, assumptions. That's why there is this immense freshness and couriosity, when you see all there is again, as it is.
Like the Heart Sutra, this makes also perfect sence suddenly:
"For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then shall I know, even as also I am known."
Hugs
Sebi
Re: Sharing
Dear Sebi,
This is definitely not the end, it is a beginning. Nothing has changed, but from what you have shared you are now carrying a lighter load, and this fills me with joy! I am so happy to have been your guide. Below I will share details of how to join meetings offered by members of the LU community. These are a wonderful way to deepen understanding, meet others on this path and also for you to participate as a guide to others in an informal setting. Also, please know that I am always available to be contacted via the forum.
A brief little sharing from my end! I went through LU two years ago, but a year prior to that I had an awakening where the sense of self was obliterated and a honeymoon period that lasted for about a week. I had been randomly seeking for about ten years prior to the first awakening in a way that was full of ideas about maintaining a high vibration and absurd expectations about enlightenment. When it was clearly seen that there was no self, nor had there ever been I was very surprised and quite disorientated. As the old mechanisms hadn't been totally blown out of the system, selfing seemingly returned and moments of doubt did arise afterwards. Slowly, the doubt thoughts subsided.
Now back to the last exercise and your responses:
Please could you look at the last three questions again. You seemed to skip over the questions pointing to sensations.
There are many different kinds of sensations, i.e. rubbing, pressure, tension, warm, cold etc. but for DE you can omit the extra layer of labelling and just check in on the fact that sensations are happening. Just answer the questions simply, without extra interpretation please :)
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labeled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
Are you ready for those questions??
With love,
Rowena
The FINAL questions...Oh, that sounds like from St. Peter... :)
I would love to chat and share, and there is a bit of sadness, that this ends here probably...
This is definitely not the end, it is a beginning. Nothing has changed, but from what you have shared you are now carrying a lighter load, and this fills me with joy! I am so happy to have been your guide. Below I will share details of how to join meetings offered by members of the LU community. These are a wonderful way to deepen understanding, meet others on this path and also for you to participate as a guide to others in an informal setting. Also, please know that I am always available to be contacted via the forum.
A brief little sharing from my end! I went through LU two years ago, but a year prior to that I had an awakening where the sense of self was obliterated and a honeymoon period that lasted for about a week. I had been randomly seeking for about ten years prior to the first awakening in a way that was full of ideas about maintaining a high vibration and absurd expectations about enlightenment. When it was clearly seen that there was no self, nor had there ever been I was very surprised and quite disorientated. As the old mechanisms hadn't been totally blown out of the system, selfing seemingly returned and moments of doubt did arise afterwards. Slowly, the doubt thoughts subsided.
Now back to the last exercise and your responses:
Please could you look at the last three questions again. You seemed to skip over the questions pointing to sensations.
There are many different kinds of sensations, i.e. rubbing, pressure, tension, warm, cold etc. but for DE you can omit the extra layer of labelling and just check in on the fact that sensations are happening. Just answer the questions simply, without extra interpretation please :)
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labeled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
It is great that you are now understanding the Heart Sutra. For the moment it seems that you have an intellectual grasp of it, keep working with the senses until this understanding is deepened into an experiential knowing. Intellectual insight always needs to be brought down into the body as a lived experience.Same. Labels. I never understood the Heart sutra, when I was chanting it everyday. Now it’s completely logoical:
Form is emptiness, emptiness is form, so it is with feeling, conception, volition, and consciousness.” These five skandhas make up your body and mind.
Yes, beautiful !That's why there is this immense freshness and couriosity, when you see all there is again, as it is.
Are you ready for those questions??
With love,
Rowena
"Experience is an incredible explosion of energy appearing in inconceivable, infinite consciousness." Peter Brown, from Yoga of Radiant Presence,
Re: Sharing
Hi Sebi,
Here is the info regarding the online meetings:
There are a number of teleconference groups if you have questions and/or would like to participate in conversation with others who have either been through the LU guiding or who are currently undergoing the process with a guide.
Vince Schubert now has three meetings. Please contact him via email:
vinceschubert@gmail.com for a link and schedule.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOOhT_lsb1s
Luchana & Lubo have one on Thursdays. Please contact Luchana at:
luchanauzunova@gmail.com
Ilona holds a monthly meeting, contact:
admin@ilonaciunaite.com for that link and schedule.
Here is the info regarding the online meetings:
There are a number of teleconference groups if you have questions and/or would like to participate in conversation with others who have either been through the LU guiding or who are currently undergoing the process with a guide.
Vince Schubert now has three meetings. Please contact him via email:
vinceschubert@gmail.com for a link and schedule.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOOhT_lsb1s
Luchana & Lubo have one on Thursdays. Please contact Luchana at:
luchanauzunova@gmail.com
Ilona holds a monthly meeting, contact:
admin@ilonaciunaite.com for that link and schedule.
"Experience is an incredible explosion of energy appearing in inconceivable, infinite consciousness." Peter Brown, from Yoga of Radiant Presence,
Re: Sharing
Thank you Rowena, I will step in contact with the guys. I already was on one of Luchanas/Lubos event, and I listened to some videos of Pernille Damore, where Vince participiated. Of course I listened to Ilona as well and read her books.
Re: Sharing
Hi Rowena!
Regrading your questions. maybe I wasn’t clear enough.
Hugs
Sebi
Regrading your questions. maybe I wasn’t clear enough.
From the DE perspective, there is only THIS. All the rest, what you listed, body, walking, room etc. are labels/frames, which are based on memory, thoughts. To have this labels, is necessary to coordinate our lifes in this dimension, but it is good to see, that these are also fetters, until you see them. After this seeing happend, there is no more unseeing it. From that moment on, both dimensions exist.7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labeled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
I don’t think, there is a intellectual grasp possible on this.It is great that you are now understanding the Heart Sutra. For the moment it seems that you have an intellectual grasp of it, keep working with the senses until this understanding is deepened into an experiential knowing. Intellectual insight always needs to be brought down into the body as a lived experience.
Gimme those questions :)Are you ready for those questions??
Hugs
Sebi
Re: Sharing
Hi Sebi,
Here are the final questions. Your answers will be shared with other guides who may have questions.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
5) Describe decision and give examples from experience.
Describe intention and give examples from experience.
Describe free will and give examples from experience.
Describe choice and give examples from experience.
Describe control and give examples from experience.
7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your experience.
8) Anything to add?
With love,
Rowena
Here are the final questions. Your answers will be shared with other guides who may have questions.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
5) Describe decision and give examples from experience.
Describe intention and give examples from experience.
Describe free will and give examples from experience.
Describe choice and give examples from experience.
Describe control and give examples from experience.
7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your experience.
8) Anything to add?
With love,
Rowena
"Experience is an incredible explosion of energy appearing in inconceivable, infinite consciousness." Peter Brown, from Yoga of Radiant Presence,
Re: Sharing
Hi Rowena!
Please find the answers below.
It is a frame for this human life, for functioning in this material world. Somehow separation, as the illusion of time, would be necessary, to live this life, in this body. It could be possible, that there is another dimension, where human life is happening, and this baby-state reactivates itself automatically after an age, just like we loosing are teeth and we grow new, stronger ones. Why this is not happening here, I can’t tell. But for some is happening. Why not for everybody, is the big mystery....And that is also a-ok.
It’s a self protecting/orienting system. It feeds itself from the past experiences. It thinks, that the known, what already has been tried out, and didn’t caused death (independently if it is a positive or negative experience), it’s the only save way. Everything which is unknown is dangerous and can lead to death. Hence the patterns, the boxes, the whole labeling is about safety and efficiency. The system doesn’t has to reinvent itself and its relationship to reality all the time, so it uses, the experiences, the pictures, the already saved data, to define the here and now. But in doing so, it gives a filter to our perception. We are not seeing reality, we are seeing reality to our filter, through the past somehow. It takes away the freshness, the curiosity. A lot of should arises, instead of coulds.
I thought that there is already a quite professional and honest self-inquiry in place, but I learned in this process, that there was a lot to learn and most of all differentiate. The exercises where eye opening, I love to show some of them to others also.
The difference is subtle and HUGE in the same time. The biggest thing is, that a complete letting go happened, or is happening continuously. This feels somehow like true self-love, true love of everything which arises and acceptance of it. There is no labeling, no filtering, of what is allowed to be felled, to be sensed. Come at me bruh! Come at me life! Or even better without the me: Come to yourself life! Haha…
Than there is this continuous sensation, of watching a movie. I hear myself and see the happenings as watching an actor in a movie.
This is hard to describe. But it also give a freshness, a constant prickling and curiosity. Loneliness vanished from one moment to the other, life became much more fascinating and less anxious. Anxiety and also loneliness can arise of course and they do, with ALL the rest, but it doesn’t effects anybody, there is no screen where a movie cold be played. This makes this living so much enjoyable and less heavy. Lot of burdens fall down, when there was realized it is only a thought, and there is nothing to do with it, just letting it through.
So this was quite tiring, but with the pointings I got, that I should realize that this is still labeling as it’s finest, I started to let everything just be...I got very tired of this...I couldn’t go on somehow. And than very quick, it all became very light and automatic... I don’t care how it SHOULD look like, how I SHOULD feel right now, if there is frustration let it be, the same with all the other feelings, sensations, happenings.
This was followed than by the „movie sensation”, described above. That everything is happening, and somehow this clinging, this „wanting of something else, what is”, is realized as something very arrogant... As a non existing self could control THIS WHAT IS HAPPENING. It’s not just arrogant, it is also very very very funny... hahaha. Realizing this makes me laugh all the time. I just laugh about all the inner voices, the anxiety, the doubts. I see them as a part, as a result of a system, but there is no identification with them. It’s just like the bittersweet laughing, when Windows has a long update and then it crushes during the update... It’s irritating and funny in the same time. But it doesn’t happens to a „me”, it’s just happens.
Decision is being made, but not by a somebody. Decision happens.
But it’s funny...cause is it „this” who chooses, or is it the paving, which chooses to be in the house? Somehow it gets there and it looks great. Or not, but than it’s also just happening. It’s nobodies fault.
Also the meeting, the books from Ilona, Elena are really changing the paradigm. There are so many vague books and messages about this out there, that can be zero help and can cause lots of frustrations. All this stuff about maps and stages…oh my god, it’s so frustrating and leads only to expectations. This direct pointing what happens here is on the other hand very clear, very effective. No spiritual mumbo-jumbo, no false hopes, no fake guru shit. Just pure, clean message. It is very honest and very human. Thank you also Rowena, it was good to share and being guided by you.
Hugs
Sebi
Please find the answers below.
No. There is just observing of sensations, of the coming and going of thoughts and emotions attached to them, the labeling process, the feelings of/in the body. Observing and letting everything come through. The feeling, that this is happening to somebody, someone is an added factor, which has it’s role (see below), but it limits everything.1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
Why does this happen around the 2-3 years of life?2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
It is a frame for this human life, for functioning in this material world. Somehow separation, as the illusion of time, would be necessary, to live this life, in this body. It could be possible, that there is another dimension, where human life is happening, and this baby-state reactivates itself automatically after an age, just like we loosing are teeth and we grow new, stronger ones. Why this is not happening here, I can’t tell. But for some is happening. Why not for everybody, is the big mystery....And that is also a-ok.
It’s a self protecting/orienting system. It feeds itself from the past experiences. It thinks, that the known, what already has been tried out, and didn’t caused death (independently if it is a positive or negative experience), it’s the only save way. Everything which is unknown is dangerous and can lead to death. Hence the patterns, the boxes, the whole labeling is about safety and efficiency. The system doesn’t has to reinvent itself and its relationship to reality all the time, so it uses, the experiences, the pictures, the already saved data, to define the here and now. But in doing so, it gives a filter to our perception. We are not seeing reality, we are seeing reality to our filter, through the past somehow. It takes away the freshness, the curiosity. A lot of should arises, instead of coulds.
The dialog and the DE method helped me first of all, to calm the f..down and accept everything that comes and goes. To understand what is happening. To accept the doubts, the ups and downs, the flip-flopping...ALL OF IT.3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
I thought that there is already a quite professional and honest self-inquiry in place, but I learned in this process, that there was a lot to learn and most of all differentiate. The exercises where eye opening, I love to show some of them to others also.
The difference is subtle and HUGE in the same time. The biggest thing is, that a complete letting go happened, or is happening continuously. This feels somehow like true self-love, true love of everything which arises and acceptance of it. There is no labeling, no filtering, of what is allowed to be felled, to be sensed. Come at me bruh! Come at me life! Or even better without the me: Come to yourself life! Haha…
Than there is this continuous sensation, of watching a movie. I hear myself and see the happenings as watching an actor in a movie.
This is hard to describe. But it also give a freshness, a constant prickling and curiosity. Loneliness vanished from one moment to the other, life became much more fascinating and less anxious. Anxiety and also loneliness can arise of course and they do, with ALL the rest, but it doesn’t effects anybody, there is no screen where a movie cold be played. This makes this living so much enjoyable and less heavy. Lot of burdens fall down, when there was realized it is only a thought, and there is nothing to do with it, just letting it through.
Some weeks ago there was a lot of frustration because of this flip-flopping. I see, but than I can unsee it, not completely but the states during the day, or during the week were very different. Like an in between state of an old and a new operating system. I talked about this to my guides and sat with it. The consumption of tons of books, videos and podcasts can be very helpful, but can build up an expectation, how this whole process (?) should look like. After some time, days, hours of less thoughts, of less anxiety, of more equanimity, there was an expectation, that this should stay. Why is it changing back, why is there again distress...??? And then the inner war has begun: To whom is this happening, there is nobody there! This is BS, you are faking it! This whole non-duality is a scam, it’s a sect, everybody is brainwashed! Go back to normality, before it gets late and you become mad...etc.etc...4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
So this was quite tiring, but with the pointings I got, that I should realize that this is still labeling as it’s finest, I started to let everything just be...I got very tired of this...I couldn’t go on somehow. And than very quick, it all became very light and automatic... I don’t care how it SHOULD look like, how I SHOULD feel right now, if there is frustration let it be, the same with all the other feelings, sensations, happenings.
This was followed than by the „movie sensation”, described above. That everything is happening, and somehow this clinging, this „wanting of something else, what is”, is realized as something very arrogant... As a non existing self could control THIS WHAT IS HAPPENING. It’s not just arrogant, it is also very very very funny... hahaha. Realizing this makes me laugh all the time. I just laugh about all the inner voices, the anxiety, the doubts. I see them as a part, as a result of a system, but there is no identification with them. It’s just like the bittersweet laughing, when Windows has a long update and then it crushes during the update... It’s irritating and funny in the same time. But it doesn’t happens to a „me”, it’s just happens.
I don’t see any decision making anymore. It is as everything falls to it’s place.5) Describe decision and give examples from experience.
Decision is being made, but not by a somebody. Decision happens.
Intention is a bit abstract. There is intention arising. Like there is good intention towards the creatures around me. It is a good feeling to care. So intentions arises, but it’s not „mine”.Describe intention and give examples from experience.
This dissolved also during this period. Free will is an illusion of the „self” that it has control over life. But as it is seen now, there is no decision maker, no one, who has a will. It is flowing, happening and there is much curiosity in observing this. Anything can and will happen.Describe free will and give examples from experience.
Choice is just happening. To choose the type of paving for the house is happening. There is an observation of the „choosing”.Describe choice and give examples from experience.
But it’s funny...cause is it „this” who chooses, or is it the paving, which chooses to be in the house? Somehow it gets there and it looks great. Or not, but than it’s also just happening. It’s nobodies fault.
Control is not trusting in what IS. It’s wanting else, what already is. It’s an illusion of safety, that „we” are in control, we decide etc. But in reality we are not in control of the slightest, smallest things, like thoughts, feelings, body functions, sickness etc. It is humbling to see this and accept it. Humbling but also freeing.Describe control and give examples from experience.
From the perspective I answered all the other questions, I’m not responsible of anything, since there is no „I” who could be responsible. How can the little wheel be responsible in a watch, or a wave in the ocean? Yeah, I know, this gets very corny, but hey this is how it feels now. Of course I wouldn’t tell this anybody, cause it’s quite a hot topic and impossible to grasp...haha...7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your experience.
I just want to say thank you for creating this possibility. It is a great thing that there is somebody on the road, who guides you, corrects your little flaws, it makes things much more easier and faster (somehow this is also an illusion, illusion of time in this case, but it feels like it).8) Anything to add?
Also the meeting, the books from Ilona, Elena are really changing the paradigm. There are so many vague books and messages about this out there, that can be zero help and can cause lots of frustrations. All this stuff about maps and stages…oh my god, it’s so frustrating and leads only to expectations. This direct pointing what happens here is on the other hand very clear, very effective. No spiritual mumbo-jumbo, no false hopes, no fake guru shit. Just pure, clean message. It is very honest and very human. Thank you also Rowena, it was good to share and being guided by you.
Hugs
Sebi
Re: Sharing
Hi Sebi,
You should be hearing from Nerina Vaughan in LU Admin confirming that the Gateless Gate has been crossed and inviting you to join the Unleashed Community on FB.
Thank you for your kind words, your final answers were a joy to read!
All the best to you,
Love,
Rowena
You should be hearing from Nerina Vaughan in LU Admin confirming that the Gateless Gate has been crossed and inviting you to join the Unleashed Community on FB.
Thank you for your kind words, your final answers were a joy to read!
All the best to you,
Love,
Rowena
"Experience is an incredible explosion of energy appearing in inconceivable, infinite consciousness." Peter Brown, from Yoga of Radiant Presence,
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