Confusion to Clarity

[Rufus]

Hi Vivien,

I’ll post on this tomorrow.
Graham

[Rufus]

Hi Vivien,

And this illusion is also closely related to the notion of time, what we will investigate close to the end of our conversation. Maybe later attention will be more clear, but to be honest it’s not too important, in terms of seeing no self. But of course if it feels really relevant to you, we can look at this further later.

OK

But first, we have to investigate the notion of control.
Go and make a cup of tea or coffee. As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it. Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of going to the kettle, switching it on, getting the cup (etc) when 'you' control the process?

There is no 'control' of the process as such, but rather a series of actions that are carried out automatically. A subtle thought arises that says "go to the kettle", "get a cup" etc but the carrying out of the actions happen spontaneously.

How the decision is made what to make a cup of tea or coffee?

A thought arises- "I'll have tea".

Do ‘you’ choose putting or not putting milk into the tea (or coffee)?

It happens automatically- I take milk in my tea so the action of putting milk in tea is carried out.

Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?

It happens automatically as this is how I make tea- its a learned or conditioned behaviour.

Do ‘you’ 'make the cup of tea (or coffee) happen' or it just happens?

It just happens- again perhaps due to it being a learned process.

Can a chooser be located?

No- just thought arising which SEEMS like me choosing.

Best,
Graham

[Vivien]

Hi Graham,

It happens automatically as this is how I make tea- its a learned or conditioned behaviour.

OK, let’s see another situation, where the label ‘conditioned behaviour’ doesn’t apply.

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

And about attention: was my description of attention helpful?

Vivien

[Rufus]

HI Vivien,

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

Sometimes there is a thought just before I lift a hand "lift the right hand" and I lift the right hand but the thought itself cannot lift the hand. At other times a hand just lifts and yet again at other times I might be focusing on something else and hands just lift.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

It's hard to ignore thoughts on this one. At time, a thought seems to be or create the impulse to lift the hand but the thought cannot do the lifting. At other times the hand just lifts.

What is it that is controlling the hand?

There does not seem to be a controller of how or in what manner the hand lifts. Sometime a hand lifts one way and the next quite another way

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

No

How is the decision made?

When there is no thought present and therefore no 'impulse' nothing seems to decide.

And about attention: was my description of attention helpful?

I understand what you were trying to convey and it's a good description of my experience. As you suggest we might look at it again should the need arise later.

Best,
Graham

[Vivien]

Hi Graham,

V: How is the decision made?

G: When there is no thought present and therefore no 'impulse' nothing seems to decide…..
……Sometimes there is a thought just before I lift a hand "lift the right hand" and I lift the right hand but the thought itself cannot lift the hand.

It seems from your reply that it’s seen that there is nothing to make decision when there are no thoughts about decision present before the hand is being lifted. But when there is a thought present, it might not be that clear, perhaps (?). So let’s make sure that it’s totally clear, without any doubt.

So when there is a thought “lift the right hand” what is making that decision?
What has decided to lift the right hand and not the left?
Find the decider itself. Where is it exactly?

Please put some chocolate (or something you think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?
Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons?

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided to not eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?
Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?
How exactly the decision is made?

Now, do according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What has decided to perform the chosen action?

Vivien

[Rufus]

Hi Vivien,

So when there is a thought “lift the right hand” what is making that decision?

A thought arises "lift the right hand". There is nothing making that decision it is just a thought arising, seemingly from nowhere. Thought labels this as "me making a decision" but as we have investigated this previously, it is thought just arising.

What has decided to lift the right hand and not the left?

I don't know- it just arises.

Find the decider itself. Where is it exactly?

I cannot find a decider

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?

That's a tough one- options as thoughts arise and are 'known'-'thoughtaware-ing'. Another thought says "I am considering these options" but thats just a 'me' thought. So what considers these options? I have no idea!

Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons?

Thoughts appear about the pros and cons.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided to not eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?

Nothing 'made' the thought appear- it just appeared.

Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?

No

How exactly is the decision is made?

A thought says "I have weighed up the pros and cons and made a decision" but this is only an arising thought itself which comes from nowhere and does not make the decision. I don't know how the decision is made.

Now, do according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What has decided to perform the chosen action?

A very strong sense of 'me-ness' come up around this question and around the general area of control- I can sense a lot of resistance to the idea of no controller. Thought says "Eat the chocolate" and I eat it but I know from our investigations this is just a thought. Honestly, I'm a bit stuck on 'control'.

Best,
Graham

[Vivien]

Hi Graham,

A very strong sense of 'me-ness' come up around this question and around the general area of control- I can sense a lot of resistance to the idea of no controller. Thought says "Eat the chocolate" and I eat it but I know from our investigations this is just a thought. Honestly, I'm a bit stuck on 'control'.

Thank you for your honesty. Let’s look at the resistance, since it can prevent further looking. Resistance is nothing more than a protective mechanism, and it does its job well. There is a belief, a story somewhere about pain or negative consequences to seeing through control and the controller. The resistance tries to protect you from these supposed negative consequences. So let’s find out what this story is about and see if they are real threats or not.

What I’d like you to do is to investigate the resistance. Examine it closely. Feel it. Don’t try to fix it or solve it, just sit with it.

Ask the resistance as if it were a some kind of entity:
What do you want to protect me from?
What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the controller would be seen through?

Observe what images and stories come up ‘justifying’ its right to resists.
If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and mental images what is BEHIND the resistance?

A thought says "I have weighed up the pros and cons and made a decision" but this is only an arising thought itself which comes from nowhere and does not make the decision. I don't know how the decision is made.

This sentence assumes that although a decision maker cannot be found, but there was a decision made.
But was there a decision at all? Or only thoughts ABOUT decision?

Thoughts about decision is NOT the AE of ‘decision’, since that is the AE of thoughts.
What is the AE of decision?

That's a tough one- options as thoughts arise and are 'known'-'thoughtaware-ing'. Another thought says "I am considering these options" but thats just a 'me' thought. So what considers these options? I have no idea!

So, although a decision maker cannot be found, but there is something considering the options? So there is a ‘consider-er’ somewhere, weighing pros and cons? :)

Vivien

[Rufus]

Hi Vivien,

Thank you for your honesty. Let’s look at the resistance, since it can prevent further looking. Resistance is nothing more than a protective mechanism, and it does its job well. There is a belief, a story somewhere about pain or negative consequences to seeing through control and the controller. The resistance tries to protect you from these supposed negative consequences. So let’s find out what this story is about and see if they are real threats or not.

Full disclosure- last night was one of those nights where I was aware of my thinking- half asleep/half awake. The resistance that came up was not just around control but around the dialogue we are having generally. - a lot of doubt/self doubt, a lot of questions, a lot of negative "what's the point?" thoughts around the process that seem to have been initiated by and include the 'control' topic. Please accept that I am fully committed to the process but I wanted to make you aware of what is coming up and that the resistance is not solely around 'control'.

What I’d like you to do is to investigate the resistance. Examine it closely. Feel it. Don’t try to fix it or solve it, just sit with it.

Ask the resistance as if it were a some kind of entity:
What do you want to protect me from?
What is the ‘negative’ story, what would happen if the controller would be seen through?

I sense it wants to protect me from myself- that I might go down a rabbit hole and not be able to get out, that if there's no controller then I will continue as I have been, drifting and directionless, that this endeavour and seeking in general has been a complete waste of my time- time that I could have spent doing other things. This feeds into my expectations around 'answers' and 'direction' that if there's no controller then I won't discover these and that seems too awful to contemplate. I know that expectation is a blockage to seeing but that's what comes up.

If you ignore the stories (thoughts) and mental images what is BEHIND the resistance?

Fear, doubt, self protection, 'logic', trust.

A thought says "I have weighed up the pros and cons and made a decision" but this is only an arising thought itself which comes from nowhere and does not make the decision. I don't know how the decision is made.

This sentence assumes that although a decision maker cannot be found, but there was a decision made.
But was there a decision at all? Or only thoughts ABOUT decision?

I couldn't find a 'thing' called a decision outside of thoughts about decision.

Thoughts about decision is NOT the AE of ‘decision’, since that is the AE of thoughts.
What is the AE of decision?

I can't see, hear, smell, taste or feel 'decision'

That's a tough one- options as thoughts arise and are 'known'-'thoughtaware-ing'. Another thought says "I am considering these options" but thats just a 'me' thought. So what considers these options? I have no idea!

So, although a decision maker cannot be found, but there is something considering the options? So there is a ‘consider-er’ somewhere, weighing pros and cons? :)

'Something' must decide surely; after all there is an effect- a decision- so there must be a cause. The flip-side of this is that nothing decides- deciding 'just happens'. Either way- a decision is made- so should it matter how?

Best
Graham

[Vivien]

Hi Graham,

The resistance that came up was not just around control but around the dialogue we are having generally. - a lot of doubt/self doubt, a lot of questions, a lot of negative "what's the point?" thoughts around the process that seem to have been initiated by and include the 'control' topic. Please accept that I am fully committed to the process but I wanted to make you aware of what is coming up and that the resistance is not solely around 'control'.

Thank you for your honesty, I really appreciate it.

I sense it wants to protect me from myself- that I might go down a rabbit hole and not be able to get out, that if there's no controller then I will continue as I have been, drifting and directionless, that this endeavour and seeking in general has been a complete waste of my time- time that I could have spent doing other things. This feeds into my expectations around 'answers' and 'direction' that if there's no controller then I won't discover these and that seems too awful to contemplate.

This description implies that currently there is a controller, and with looking this controller can be lost.
But a controller has never ever been there. It’s always just been an illusion.
But, just because the illusion of control is seen only as an illusion, it doesn’t mean that the seeming controller will stop.
Just before seeing through control, there are thoughts about control and controller (thus a seeming controller) and appropriate actions happen, the same is true after seeing that there is no inherent controller.

Actually, seeing that there is no inherent controller will change nothing. The only change will be the knowing or seeing that this is just an illusion. But everything goes on just as before. Only the perception changes.

It’s similar when you’re watching a movie which is so enchanting that you completely forget that you’re in a movie theatre, sitting in a chair, watching images projected onto the screen. It totally seems like and feels like as if you’re in scenes of the movie together with the characters. And then suddenly, you ‘wake up’ from this illusion. But the movie will still go on. You just discover that the whole movie is just a fantasy. So there is only a perception shift. This is the same with seeing through the self and / or the controller.

It’s just a shift in perception, like with these images bellow. As if you were seeing only in one way for your whole life, and now there’s a shift, and you can see from a different perspective. But you can still see the original, old version too. From now on, you can switch back and forth between the two.

'Something' must decide surely; after all there is an effect- a decision- so there must be a cause. The flip-side of this is that nothing decides- deciding 'just happens'. Either way- a decision is made- so should it matter how?

It matters only if it’s believed that there is a decider who made that decision. An entity who has the power to do things.

no controller then I will continue as I have been, drifting and directionless, that this endeavour and seeking in general has been a complete waste of my time- time that I could have spent doing other things. This feeds into my expectations around 'answers' and 'direction' that if there's no controller then I won't discover these and that seems too awful to contemplate.

“then I will continue as I have been” – what does the word ‘I’ exactly refer to in this sentence?
What will continue drifting, directionlessly?

“Complete waste of my time” – What is it exactly that has a time? – Really look for the ‘thing’ that has time.

“it feeds into my expectation” – What is it that has an expectation? – find the exact location of this ‘me’

“then I won’t discover” – Where is the one exactly that wants to discover this? – find the location

“seems too awful to contemplate” – Where is the ‘I’ EXACTLY that is doing the contemplation?
Where is the ‘me’ that feels awful? – find the FEELER. Where is it exactly?


Vivien

[Rufus]

Hi Vivien,

Thanks for your post. I will respond to it tomorrow when I have more time.
Graham

[Rufus]

HI Vivien,

Thanks for your lengthy response. I've read and re-read the questions you posed and re-read all our dialogue so far and I'd like a little more time to answer them if that's Ok with you. I have a lot of family commitments this weekend and will give your questions the attention they deserve after tomorrow.

Thanks for your patience!
Graham

[Vivien]

Hi Graham,

Thank you for letting me know. I am looking forward to your replies.

Have a nice day,
Vivien

[Rufus]

Hi Vivien,

Actually, seeing that there is no inherent controller will change nothing. The only change will be the knowing or seeing that this is just an illusion. But everything goes on just as before. Only the perception changes.

You explained this so well- thank-you.

“then I will continue as I have been” – what does the word ‘I’ exactly refer to in this sentence?
What will continue drifting, directionlessly?

I see now that the 'I' above refers to the combination of sensation, thought labelling and awareness we have discussed before. I can see these things for what they are (or rather are not!) but there is a lot of 'forgetting' of this as the false identification with a 'sense of me' has its own gravity.

“Complete waste of my time” – What is it exactly that has a time? – Really look for the ‘thing’ that has time.

Ok- smell, taste, sensation, sound- thy don't have 'time' but happen now, in this moment. The illusion of time is provided by thought about past or future which happen now. So there is no 'thing' that has time as such.

“it feeds into my expectation” – What is it that has an expectation? – find the exact location of this ‘me’3

I can't find it- the 'me' is just a combination of thought and sensation. Expectation is just the content of thought- thought about a future- and not real as such.

“then I won’t discover” – Where is the one exactly that wants to discover this? – find the location

I can't- again there is no 'one' who wants to discover but rather thought with content "I want answers, I want to discover" etc.

“seems too awful to contemplate” – Where is the ‘I’ EXACTLY that is doing the contemplation?
Where is the ‘me’ that feels awful? – find the FEELER. Where is it exactly?

I can't locate a feeler other than the false feeler provided by the combination of elements discussed above. Thought says "I feel this, I feel that" but it is just thought, coupled with the sensations labelled 'me'.

So there is only a perception shift. This is the same with seeing through the self and / or the controller.

I've noticed a definite clash or friction between AE and conditioned thought with these questions so you know. I guess the conditioned thinking that creates the "me' or "I" has been around for so long it has great power an is very good at ensuring its survival!
Best,
Graham

[Vivien]

Hi Graham,

I see now that the 'I' above refers to the combination of sensation, thought labelling and awareness we have discussed before. I can see these things for what they are (or rather are not!) but there is a lot of 'forgetting' of this as the false identification with a 'sense of me' has its own gravity.

Just because you can see this it doesn’t mean that the sense of self would stop appearing. It won’t. This sense of self still arises after seeing that there is no feeler, thinker, etc. It is the result of a life-long condoning. But every time it looked at, it weakens a bit. We will investigate this sense of self later.

I've noticed a definite clash or friction between AE and conditioned thought with these questions so you know. I guess the conditioned thinking that creates the "me' or "I" has been around for so long it has great power an is very good at ensuring its survival!

This is normal. See my comments above. And this sense of self doesn’t even have to go away. It’s enough to see it for what it is each time when ‘waking up’ from the story happens.

Let’s go back to the topic of control. Look very carefully. Investigate all the questions one-by-one.

Is there a control over ‘sensations’?
Is there a control over ‘thoughts’?
Is there a control over ‘sounds’?
Is there a control over ‘visual sight’?
Is there a control over ‘smells’?
Is there a control over ‘tastes’?

Is there a control over anything?
Is there a controller in any shape or form, or any way?

Vivien

[Rufus]

Hi Vivien,

Is there a control over ‘sensations’?

No

Is there a control over ‘thoughts’?

No

Is there a control over ‘sounds’?

No

Is there a control over ‘visual sight’

?
No

Is there a control over ‘smells’?

No

Is there a control over ‘tastes’?

No

Sensations, thoughts, sounds, sights, smells and tastes arise with no 'controller' controlling them. They are 'aware-ed' and and such are 'sensation-aware-ing', 'though-aware-ing', 'sound-aware-ing' etc.

Is there a control over anything?

Is there a controller in any shape or form, or any way?

We touched on control near the beginning of our dialogue and I suggested that "There is a seeming directing of actions" and you said "It SEEMS that there is someone controlling all of these. What if control is just another illusion?" I can completely get the no control over inputs but can we explore the outputs such as action, volition, intention, decision making so I'm 100% clear on 'control'.

Best,
Graham