Getting untangled

[Tanglier]

Hi Rowena

1. Look for the apparent separate "me"! Can it be found? Yes/No?

No

2. Look at what your words are pointing to: are there further thoughts/beliefs/expectations underneath that have not been met? Dig deeper? What does 'cold' stand for? 'Untouched' maybe, or disappointed?

Yes, there are expectations, that I would feel differently. More expansive, less contracted.

Please describe how abstract and conceptual actually feels in the body, or can we agree that this is just more thought content pointing to further unformed thoughts/expectations and maybe some unfelt body sensations that have gone unnoticed. Can you pick one word?

Yes, these are just more thoughts, you are right. I had the sensations that I had, and that was my experience. Everything else is conceptual comment on those experiences.

Is there a real self? Yes/No

No

If Yes, where is it located?
If No, what does belief have to do with it?

Belief doesn't seem to be relevant to direct experience. Direct experience is therefore just about sensations.

It doesn't mean that life will be different.

I can see that in one way. But in another way, even you must admit that this is a strange conclusion. I could ask, If life isn't any different then why am I doing LU at all?

Does this sense of self have a specific location? Yes/No

No

Does this sense of self have a shape or a size? Yes/No

No

Does this sense of self say or communicate anything? Yes/No

No

Does this sense of self have any specific characteristics or attributes (shimmering, tingling, pulsing, contraction?
What is this sense of self made of? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Body Sensation? Thought?
Does this familiar "sense of self" confirm the existence of an actual self. Yes/No

No

In conclusion, is there any separate self to be found?

No
Best wisshes
Kim

[Noro]

Hi Kim,

It doesn't mean that life will be different.

I can see that in one way. But in another way, even you must admit that this is a strange conclusion. I could ask, If life isn't any different then why am I doing LU at all?

Yes, this is correct. External life circumstances will continue to be as they are. However, since it is seen that there is no separate self to take things personally, the way life events are experienced will change. The unexamined assumption/belief in a separate self creates an unnecessary overlay on anything considered as personal.

"...why am I doing LU at all?"

Are "you" doing LU? !!

Lets look at the next two questions you answered at the beginning:

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I think there will be regular day to day contact via email between me and a guide, who will ask a series of questions about my experience of the self and adjust their questions according to the answers that I give. I will be thinking hard about each question and trying to answer it honestly from my own experience. That is what I expect about the process of the guided conversation. If you mean what do I expect as an outcome, well I would hope to be able to strengthen my existing beliefs about no-self and embed them to such a degree that I can actually feel the difference that it makes in my life - a lighter, less thought-tangled existence of greater flow and spontaneity and connection with all that is.

Have "you" strengthened your existing beliefs about no-self?
Or, is the seeing that there is no-self allowing a gentle relaxation away from the need to believe at all?

Consider this: A belief is a thought; but a thought is not a belief. A belief always belongs to an apparent "someone" or a "me", there is some identification involved. Thoughts are just thoughts, empty of identification. Even after 'seeing' as a result of doing these exercises there can be some residual doubt and a need to keep looking "to be sure." This is a natural reflex belonging to no-one, and eventually the seeing will become a kind of knowing but belonging to "no-one."

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
After ten years practising mindfulness meditation I wanted to explore more deeply so I joined a local Buddhist sangha, in the Triratna order, in 2018 and became a Mitra in 2020. I have found it very helpful and supportive in moving me along the spiritual path and providing a likeminded community. I have never found meditation an easy activity, but I do treat meditation seriously as a way into discovering the true nature of reality and the self, especially when I follow more insight-based meditations such as those taught by Tejananda. I go on retreat two or three times a year. Recently I have been exploring nondualism and getting a lot out of that. I also read a lot of books of mainly Buddhist spirituality. However, even though I throw a lot of resources in terms of time and effort into my seeking, my progress towards the goal that I outlined above often seems frustratingly slow. I have had two powerful spiritual experiences in this period which have given me a taste of what life could be like if I can truly let go of the self and trust in what is right here rather than want things to be different.

"....However, even though I throw a lot of resources in terms of time and effort into my seeking, my progress towards the goal that I outlined above often seems frustratingly slow....."

Are you able to see the extent of "personal identification" packed into this statement?

"..... I have had two powerful spiritual experiences in this period which have given me a taste of what life could be like if I can truly let go of the self and trust in what is right here rather than want things to be different...."

This is a memory to which a lot of baggage of expectations has been attached.
Can a self which cannot be found to exist be let go of by that same self that cannot be found to exist?!!


MEMORY EXERCISE
Almost everybody takes a memory about a past event as an actuality; that it actually happened in the way we've been told (i.e. history) or in the way we "remember" a past event. This exercise is not to discount memory, it is pointing to what is actually happening in our direct experience when a memory arises.

What is a memory? We can say it is a thought (and this includes mental images) that seems to refer to a narrative about the past and which may or may not evoke feelings/sensations in the body.

Sit down, take a few breaths to relax and then bring to mind a recent "event". Choose something simple, it could have happened 5 minutes ago as you remember what you were doing before you sat down to do this exercise.

Just let a "memory" be there, and look at it, simply, in your direct experience. And remember, you don't have to know, or come up with some explanation as you answer the questions!!

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.

What is the memory ‘made of’? What is actually happening in your direct experience?

Now, think of a flying pink elephant flying across the room, let that image go, and now return to the memory thought.

Without more thoughts to interpret, what is the actual difference between those two thoughts?

Is there a difference, other than the content?

How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Does it require further thought to affirm the apparent "reality" of the memory thought

Now, look at a thought about the future.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

What is the difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

How is it known that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that might happen?

What is this information based on?

Are there body sensations or emotions?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.

What is the difference between the thoughts about past and future?

If there is difference, how is that difference is known exactly?

Any further comments?

Warmly,
Rowena

[Tanglier]

Hi Rowena, apologies for the delay in replying, I had family staying all weekend and it was a bit hectic.

Have "you" strengthened your existing beliefs about no-self?
Or, is the seeing that there is no-self allowing a gentle relaxation away from the need to believe at all?

I think my existing beliefs have been strengthened but as they are beliefs then that doesn't really impact my day to day existence. I suppose that is what the second part of your question is getting at? Getting away from the pull of beliefs altogether? On that score, I can't say that my mind is less dominated by beliefs and concepts and thoughts. They are very hard to throw off. I have lived in my thinking mind for so long that it will take an awful lot to move into a different mode of being.

A belief always belongs to an apparent "someone" or a "me", there is some identification involved. Thoughts are just thoughts, empty of identification.

This is an interesting and useful distinction - thank you.

Even after 'seeing' as a result of doing these exercises there can be some residual doubt and a need to keep looking "to be sure." This is a natural reflex belonging to no-one, and eventually the seeing will become a kind of knowing but belonging to "no-one."

I don't think I am really looking 'to be sure' of a self, as if I am checking up on the validity of the conclusions and outcomes of the exercises. It is just that when I am in ordinary 'life' mode, as opposed to meditation/LU exercise/or flow mode (i.e. 99 per cent of the time!) the delusional default mode of relating to the world and my 'self' kicks in. It is just too familiar, or addictive, or hard wired, however you want to explain it.

Are you able to see the extent of "personal identification" packed into this statement?

Yes. It's the default mode (see above!)

Can a self which cannot be found to exist be let go of by that same self that cannot be found to exist?!!

No, I see what you mean. It is the same 'self' that 'decides' to 'do LU'. You are I think pointing to the fact that our experiences and decisions etc. just evolve organically out of conditions, there is no input as such from an individual working towards something. Is that right? On one level of course I get that. On another level, as I find myself spending time and effort on these exercise (like right now as I type this answer) it is a weird thing to say and believe.
MEMORY

What is the memory ‘made of’? What is actually happening in your direct experience?

It consists of a couple of images which 'stand for' an event (me taking a cake out of the two cake tins and putting it on a wire tray to cool), along with a bit of an idenifying commentary (like 'me taking a cake out').

Without more thoughts to interpret, what is the actual difference between those two thoughts?

No difference in the sense that they are both mental events.

Is there a difference, other than the content?

Not in terms of direct experience, only in terms to interpretation, mental overlay.

How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

I can go downstairs and check that the cakes are still on the wire tray. Though admittedly that doesn't prove I put them there, or indeed that I put them there in exactly the way that the memory implied.

Does it require further thought to affirm the apparent "reality" of the memory thought

Yes.

Now, look at a thought about the future. What is the future thought ‘made of’?

It is made of the same stuff - images, commentary.

What is the difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

Nothing in terms of DE. In more conventional terms, of course, the difference is that the mind says the former has happened whereas the latter is going to happen (though it admits that it is a prediction and therefore more open to error that the past memory).

How is it known that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that might happen?

It is cast in the format of a prediction, e.g. there is a narrative that accompanies it saying something like 'I am going to do this.' Or 'this is going to happen'.

What is this information based on?

It is based on further thoughts.

Are there body sensations or emotions?

These occur as well, with both kinds of thoughts, but they are not part of the actual thoughts , they just attend them or are triggered by them.

What is the difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how is that difference is known exactly?

The only difference seems to be that one is accompanied by a mental tag that says 'This happened' and the other by the tag 'This is going to happen'.
This is interesting but I wonder where it leads. At the moment it does weaken the hold of thoughts when considering all this. They seem very flimsy. So that is helpful.
Best wishes
Kim

[Noro]

Hi Kim,

Have "you" strengthened your existing beliefs about no-self?
Or, is the seeing that there is no-self allowing a gentle relaxation away from the need to believe at all?

I think my existing beliefs have been strengthened but as they are beliefs then that doesn't really impact my day to day existence.

A belief does have a huge impact on our day to day existence. We have many beliefs running that we are not consciously aware of. So, even if it is seen, and momentarily "believed" that there is no separate self, it is not 'believed" enough to over-ride a deeper "belief" that is clinging on to an identification with a separate self as a survival strategy.

Have you heard of IFS (Internal Family Systems)? It follows the idea that a psyche is made of many different 'parts' that have taken on roles in order to 'protect' the apparent 'self' and body-mind system. I am wondering if this concept might be helpful here:
One part, let's call it the "Seeker" confirms that it does believe that there is no actual self because it has seen that it cannot be found through inquiry and direct experience.
Another part, let's call it "Defender of the self" is going to hold out against the evidence with all it's might. It doesn't want to know and it will stick to its guns. It wants recognition, it wants to express its point of view and its 'strength' (contracted body sensations) needs to be felt.

Does this resonate with you in any way?
Can you feel resistance in your body?
Can you allow this resistance to express verbally?

Please take a moment to become calm, settled and relaxed. Say the following out loud:

"There is no separate "self," never has been and never will be. It is all a made-up story?"

Do this exercise a number of times with a focus on and resistance that might be arising.
What is happening?
Does this statement ring true?
What emotions does it bring up? Is there Fear? Or excitement?
Are there body sensations?
Where are they located?
What thoughts are arising THAT ARE DIRECTLY RELATED to the statement?
Is there an internal conversation arising against that statement?
Look with a fine attention to shifting movements of sensations, thought content etc...

Write down briefly what comes up in DIRECT EXPERIENCE.


Here are further comments on your last post.

There is no looking to prove the non-existence of a separate self here, this exercise is to allow for any unconscious resistance to be fully witnessed and acknowledged.

I have lived in my thinking mind for so long that it will take an awful lot to move into a different mode of being.

This is what we are looking into.

Can a self which cannot be found to exist be let go of by that same self that cannot be found to exist?!!
No, I see what you mean. It is the same 'self' that 'decides' to 'do LU'. You are I think pointing to the fact that our experiences and decisions etc. just evolve organically out of conditions, there is no input as such from an individual working towards
something. Is that right?

On one level of course I get that. On another level, as I find myself spending time and effort on these exercise (like right now as I type this answer) it is a weird thing to say and believe.

Yes, there's that part again, it wants its opinions about this paradox to be heard!
And I want to acknowledge that yes, it is a weird thing to say and believe!

What is the difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how is that difference is known exactly?
The only difference seems to be that one is accompanied by a mental tag that says 'This happened' and the other by the tag 'This is going to happen'.

This is interesting but I wonder where it leads.

It is not meant to be leading anywhere, it is just about noticing thought processes and thought content.

At the moment it does weaken the hold of thoughts when considering all this. They seem very flimsy. So that is helpful.

GOOD.

Warmly,
Rowena

[Tanglier]

Hi Rowena

What is happening?

As before, I cannot discern any sensations when I read out the statement to myself. They just seem like words (as indeed they are!) without any deep consequences or ramifications.

Does this statement ring true?

Yes the statement rings true.

What emotions does it bring up? Is there Fear? Or excitement?

No emotions. It just seems like a statement of fact.

Are there body sensations? Where are they located?

None.

What thoughts are arising THAT ARE DIRECTLY RELATED to the statement?

'Yes, that is true'. 'OK, but so what?' 'It's a bit extreme'. 'Is it really true?' 'If no belief regarding no-self is strong enough to counter the deep belief in the self then why does it matter that I believe in no-self?'

Is there an internal conversation arising against that statement?

Just random negative thoughts interspersed with positive (agreeing) ones, as listed above. I'm not sure that the IFS approach as outlined relates to me as I cannot find a strong enough resistance to the no-self statement. Either that is because there isn't a strong resistance or because it's very strong and unconscious. OR there is something about an approach that focuses on concepts (even though it uses DE to reach conclusions) leaves me unmoved.
Best wishes
Kim

[Noro]

Hi Kim,

Let's look a little more at this:

What thoughts are arising THAT ARE DIRECTLY RELATED to the statement?

'Yes, that is true'. 'OK, but so what?' 'It's a bit extreme'. 'Is it really true?'

See for yourself, again and again..... LOOK!

'If no belief regarding no-self is strong enough to counter the deep belief in the self then why does it matter that I believe in no-self?'

Do you believe in Santa Claus? Maybe you did when you were very young, but eventually this myth was dispelled, wasn't it?
Maybe there was a thought....."If I keep believing in Santa Claus, then I will continue to get presents!!" But the doubt had set in and there was an inner knowing that Santa Claus was made up, a fictional character who couldn't be found to exist.

The separate self/"I" is a similar myth. However, even though you've looked hard to find an independent separate self or "I" and seen that it cannot be found to exist, there is still a belief to the contrary!

Remember, a belief is a thought with baggage, i.e. a lot of personal identification.

Please complete the following sentences without thinking, just let the first words show up that resonate with you.

Although there is no independent separate self, I still believe that there is.

The benefit of believing in a separate self is ...............................................

And that gives me ............................................................................

So that I .......................................................................................

The worst thing that could happen if I stopped believing in a separate self, would be .........................................

And that would mean .......................................................................

And then I would .............................................................................

OR there is something about an approach that focuses on concepts (even though it uses DE to reach conclusions) leaves me unmoved.

So, there are expectations that "you" should be moved or have some particular experience? The following is an excerpt from your answers to the initial questions on the forum:

"...... Recently I have been exploring nondualism and getting a lot out of that. I also read a lot of books of mainly Buddhist spirituality. However, even though I throw a lot of resources in terms of time and effort into my seeking, my progress towards the goal that I outlined above often seems frustratingly slow."

First of all, can a separate "I" be located anywhere? Yes / No?
Please tell me where you have looked for this investigation and what you found.

Does there need to be a separate self in order for the exploring of non dualism etc. to take place? Yes?No?
If yes, please explain how this is so?

If there is a goal, then that must be for a "someone" please tell me where that "someone" is located.

I have had two powerful spiritual experiences in this period which have given me a taste of what life could be like if I can truly let go of the self and trust in what is right here rather than want things to be different.

A spiritual experience is no different from any other experience, it is another experience that has been interpreted in a certain way by thought. A visual imagining (memory) of a past experience onto which a load of interpretations and expectations have been overlayed relating to an apparent separate "I".

Without a separate "I" what needs to be let go of?
What is missing right here in your direct experience? PLEASE LOOK

Wanting things to be different is an old pattern of thought. Probably a thought pattern that goes eons back to the earliest humans. It belongs to no one, it just arises. It doesn't need a separate self in order for this thought content to be spewed out. Think of it as some grouchy cartoon character (that's what I do!)


STREAM EXERCISE
Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is a stream ever really a separate entity, different from other water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it ever the exact same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions, ground conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Using this metaphor, can you find anywhere where "you" autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens.

Consider that there are environmental factors, consider any preferences like color, shape and texture.
Consider where did those preferences come from?

Was any autonomous intervention actually involved?

Consider any practical issues (such as what is available).
Consider the time factor, i.e. for preparation.
Consider the purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.

Where in all of the above is an autonomous separate entity intervening in the flow of life?

Can you find a someone somewhere? (Not just thoughts, and thoughts about the thoughts (thought bundles), none of which are solid even if they seem to have some solidity for an instant.)

Do you control attention?
Do you control feelings?
Do you control choices?
Do you control thoughts?
Do you control anything?

3. Now consider, can anything be found for which a 'you' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

4. Take your time with this exercise and occasionally stop for a few moments throughout your day and take a look. When you find your attention caught up in thinking.... stop, take a look....

Was there a "you" that suddenly stopped the trail of thought and said "Oh, I'm lost in thought!" ?
Do you control being "lost in thought?"

Warmly,
Rowena

[Tanglier]

Hi Rowena

Although there is no independent separate self, I still believe that there is.

This isn't a correct representation of my position. My belief is that there is no self. In the exercise last time I just wrote down thoughts that came up - these are not beliefs. The mind comes up with all sorts of random things if you give it space - do you not find this? How much do these random thoughts really say about our deeply held beliefs? If you are arguing that random thoughts reveal deep unconscious attachment to beliefs, then I struggle to agree with you. Some do, admittedly, but are you really saying that every random thought has some real underlining meaning of importance?
So I can only do the following exercise (below) from the point of view of someone who is hanging on to a belief in the existence of the self, i.e. I am putting myself in that position for the sake of the exercise and to see what comes up.

The benefit of believing in a separate self is ...............................................

I am important, I have control over my actions, decisions etc.

And that gives me ............................................................................

a sense of control and security

So that I .......................................................................................

can go about my day as a substantial person knowing what I am doing, with a purpose and agency etc.

The worst thing that could happen if I stopped believing in a separate self, would be .........................................

I would have no direction, purpose, control

And that would mean .......................................................................

I would be a blob!

And then I would .............................................................................

just implode, dissolve

First of all, can a separate "I" be located anywhere? Yes / No?
Please tell me where you have looked for this investigation and what you found.

No, it cannot be found. This is my conclusion after looking in my mind, my body, my thoughts, in activities such as LU, in reading and in meditations and enquiry.

Does there need to be a separate self in order for the exploring of non dualism etc. to take place? Yes?No?

No

Without a separate "I" what needs to be let go of?
What is missing right here in your direct experience? PLEASE LOOK

It is true that when I can just be in awareness and get under the radar of thoughts there is nothing missing. A common question to induce this 'place' is 'What is here now when there is no problem to solve?'
STREAM EXERCISE

1. Using this metaphor, can you find anywhere where "you" autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

No

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens.

Whether to have a sip from my glass of water. I am aware of an impulse from my hand to reach out. Also the mouth seems to have some sort of change in dryness that registers itself to me. I may even think 'I need water' but often the hand just reaches out automatically, often because I have spotted the glass out of the corner of my eye.

Was any autonomous intervention actually involved?

No, all the things I have listed are background conditions.

Where in all of the above is an autonomous separate entity intervening in the flow of life?

Nowhere.

Can you find a someone somewhere?
Do you control attention?
Do you control feelings?
Do you control choices?
Do you control thoughts?
Do you control anything?

No to all of the above.

3. Now consider, can anything be found for which a 'you' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

No

4. Was there a "you" that suddenly stopped the trail of thought and said "Oh, I'm lost in thought!" ?

No

Do you control being "lost in thought?"

No, it is a default mode. And when I notice that I am lost and become (briefly) present, that seems to happen automatically and through conditions too. Regular meditation seems to help me become a little more present in the day, but I cannot say that that is 'me' controlling the outcome - whether and how long I medittate for is conditioned just like everything else and doesn't depend on a separate self.
Best wishes
kim

[Noro]

Hi Kim,

Although there is no independent separate self, I still believe that there is.

This isn't a correct representation of my position. My belief is that there is no self. In the exercise last time I just wrote down thoughts that came up - these are not beliefs. The mind comes up with all sorts of random things if you give it space - do you not find this?

OK, Good, sorry that I misunderstood what you wrote and misrepresented your position, I'm happy that you've clarified it and thanks for filling in those sentences! It seems to me that you are seeing clearly that there is no separate self; however there is one point that you mentioned early on in the thread regarding the fear of 'emptiness' that I think would be helpful to address:

How will you change?

I don't think that I will change substantially, as hopefully there is not a substantial self to change! I will look the same. I guess I will feel different things, and feel things differently, but apart from what I said in answer to your first question it is hard for me to guess. I imagine that I will feel much more ease around just being (at the moment I find I am attached to 'doing' and that gets me down. There is a fear of 'emptiness'. I notice that when I fill the emptiness with activity, usually I get a kick but I know that underneath I am filling a gap that doesn't need to be filled and that I would like just to sit with a be more spacious and calm.)

Is this fear of 'emptiness' still active? If it is, can you say more about it.

And now please can your share a little about the following:

How seeing that there is no 'self' has affected and is affecting your relationships?

How seeing has affected the thoughts and feelings about 'you', when they are there?

How seeing has affected your relationship with life?

Anything else to share?

Warmly,
Rowena

[Tanglier]

Hi Rowena

Is this fear of 'emptiness' still active? If it is, can you say more about it.

It isn't as active as it has historically been. Filling in time or doing things quickly to get through them and on tto the next thing, when it occurs, feels like a deeply engrained habit rather than an urgent compulsion and need. So when I actually just notice it and stop myself and allow myself to be still and aimless I get immediate relief. Underneath it doesn't feel that I am really afraid of emptiness, therefore - but habits endure!

How seeing that there is no 'self' has affected and is affecting your relationships?

I notice that in ordinary contact with friends etc I am less fearful of judgement. There is more confidence in just saying or doing what it feels natural to say or do. I guess there is less at stake - there isn't so much of a person to take things personally. I am not noticing a difference with my partner because we have been together for only just over a year and this is the time in which I have been working a lot on no-self. We also have always had a very honest and harmonious and open relationship where buttons have simply not been pressed so there has been little opportunity to test for reactivity etc.

How seeing has affected the thoughts and feelings about 'you', when they are there?

I still get caught up in thoughts and feelings about myself. Right from the moment of waking there is a commentary, 'I am going to do x, then y, then z, but what if x happens, oh it's okay because y etc etc.' It is another big habit and a very frustrating one. It requires a lot to just stop and be in awareness. I am 67 next week and I think a lot about how I am going to spend the last chunk of my life, what things really matter for me to do in the day, how I am going to cope with illness and death etc. Yet when I get down to doing things, even mundane things like cleaning the bathroom, those thoughts seem irrelevant and they fade into the background.

How seeing has affected your relationship with life?

I guess the above answers this one as well. On one level I live more lightly, but a thick fog of thinking often gets in the way of fully enjoying life.

Anything else to share?

The post, and your questions, have the feeling of a summing up at the end of a process - is that where we are going? My sense is that I entered into this process not so much wanting to believe something different (that there is no self) as I think I believed that anyway, but my motivation was actually to somehow make that belief have a real and lasting impact on my life. The latter is much more difficult, isn't it, and I suppose it isn't really what LU is set up to do. I seem to be struggling with something else - perhaps a different 'fetter' like craving. You have mentioned this before, the desire for things to be different, which must fall into that category. For me, just having a belief in something, even when it is backed up by direct experience, can often just remain at the level of belief/concept, where it is hard to translate it into something deeper and more active. I hope I am making sense - it is difficult to describe what I mean.
Best wishes
Kim

[Noro]

Hello Kim,

Re: Emptiness

So when I actually just notice it and stop myself and allow myself to be still and aimless I get immediate relief. Underneath it doesn't feel that I am really afraid of emptiness, therefore - but habits endure!

Yes, exactly, habits endure! :)

Actually, the concept of 'emptiness' is something worth exploring.
Letting go of any philosophical interpretations or positions ....
What is emptiness actually pointing to in your direct experience?


How seeing that there is no 'self' has affected and is affecting your relationships?

I notice that in ordinary contact with friends etc I am less fearful of judgement. There is more confidence in just saying or doing what it feels natural to say or do. I guess there is less at stake - there isn't so much of a person to take things personally.

Great, I love what you say here - "There is less at stake - there isn't so much of a person to take things personally"!
This is what is being looked for: seeing becomes experiencing, and this will deepen.


How seeing has affected the thoughts and feelings about 'you', when they are there?

I still get caught up in thoughts and feelings about myself. Right from the moment of waking there is a commentary, 'I am going to do x, then y, then z, but what if x happens, oh it's okay because y etc etc.' It is another big habit and a very frustrating one.

Getting caught up in thoughts and feelings about one's self will continue to happen. There is neither a thinker nor a listener to be found..... just the same old processes continuing to happen, not to any 'one' but as body-mind processing.
What is frustrated? LOOK
What is frustration pointing to?
Notice thoughts: "I wish these thoughts would stop, etc...."
Notice body sensations: maybe some feeling of resistance or contraction arising somewhere in the body and being interpreted as "frustration."
Can you allow those body sensations the space to be seen and felt?
Can you watch those thoughts to simply float through
Can you allow "frustration" to be there fully as it is?

It requires a lot to just stop and be in awareness.

Yes, and this stopping to look will eventually become a new and enjoyable habit.

I am 67 next week and I think a lot about how I am going to spend the last chunk of my life, what things really matter for me to do in the day, how I am going to cope with illness and death etc. Yet when I get down to doing things, even mundane things like cleaning the bathroom, those thoughts seem irrelevant and they fade into the background.

Happy Birthday for next week! This is clear seeing. It's totally natural to have thoughts about the future that seem to refer to a "me". The body-mind system works automatically and autonomously on triggers (thoughts and sensations etc) and impulses (more thoughts, sensations and maybe actions). This innate intelligence also knows how to self-soothe by choosing mundane things!


How seeing has affected your relationship with life?

I guess the above answers this one as well. On one level I live more lightly, but a thick fog of thinking often gets in the way of fully enjoying life.

This is called Integration. The seeing through the illusion of the separate self here in LU is a first step, an important one, but the journey continues.... Here at LU we are mostly addressing the First Fetter.

Anything else to share?

The post, and your questions, have the feeling of a summing up at the end of a process - is that where we are going?

Honestly, there is no real end to the process, we can keep going as long as you like, but the questions were really a pre-summing up as to how you are experiencing life now the illusion has been seen through. There are some further questions which I would then share with some other guides so that they can share other questions if they feel they might be helpful.
You can let me know when you feel ready for these.

My sense is that I entered into this process not so much wanting to believe something different (that there is no self) as I think I believed that anyway,

People say seeing is believing, but a belief is a thought with baggage! (i.e. personal identification)
From the perspective that I hold, it is more about allowing the 'seeing' to become integrated as a quiet knowing.

but my motivation was actually to somehow make that belief have a real and lasting impact on my life. The latter is much more difficult, isn't it, and I suppose it isn't really what LU is set up to do.

Can you see the selfing going on here! :)
'My' motivation....... a real and lasting impact on 'my' life!
Our expectations are always going to get in the way, and the lure of 'enlightenment' and all the stories told about it, as well as the mystical experiences we can have will have to be seen clearly for what they are: The content of thought narratives and visual images of memory that have been circulating in the collective, and in our own imagination.

Is there a "you" to be disappointed by this?

I seem to be struggling with something else - perhaps a different 'fetter' like craving. You have mentioned this before, the desire for things to be different, which must fall into that category. For me, just having a belief in something, even when it is backed up by direct experience, can often just remain at the level of belief/concept, where it is hard to translate it into something deeper and more active. I hope I am making sense - it is difficult to describe what I mean.

"Wanting things to be different to how they are" - this is a perpetual refrain that goes round and round in so many different guises. I would say it is fetter work and can be found in Fetter 4 and 5 (desire and aversion) and also Fetter 9 (restlessness).
It can also come from expectations that have never been met. I have found this to be a very fertile ground for inquiry, recognizing the thought and then feeling the desire for things to be different i.e. the resistance to what is.

This is all part of the integration process, and integration is actually referring to the gradual dismantling of all the old patterns of conditioning as they are gradually seen through.



LOOKING OUT AT THE WORLD - THE WORLD LOOKING BACK AT ME!

Ask yourself: "What do I see in front of my face and simply look, don't interpret, although thoughts may appear.
Look at thought: "I see a world out there" OK, let go of thought and keep looking.
Keep looking at what's in from to you. Don't think about it, LOOK at what you're seeing:

Where is information about a world coming from?
Is it in the seen? What is it?
Are there actual objects out there? Yes/No?
If yes, how do you know?
Is there actual distance? Yes/No?
If yes, how do you know?

Now flip it around, so that instead of looking out at the world, you are receiving the world, as if the 'world' is looking at you!
Let your attention land on an object, any object in front of you.
Experience that you are an object and the object you have chosen, is now looking back at you.

Is there any separate thing or separate "you" to be found?
Is there a boundary to be found between see-er and the seen with this flip?
Is there an actual outside or inside that can be flipped around?

Briefly describe what was experienced.

Warmly,
Rowena

[Tanglier]

Hi Rowena

What is emptiness actually pointing to in your direct experience?

It is only a concept, I think, a set of thoughts that realte to purpose and meaning. Actually if I stop and be still at moments when I am running from what I call 'emptiness' my direct experience would be of just being.

What is frustrated? LOOK

Someone who has a desire to be different. To be not so much caught up in thinking.

What is frustration pointing to?

I don't know how to answer this.

Can you allow those body sensations the space to be seen and felt?
Can you watch those thoughts to simply float through
Can you allow "frustration" to be there fully as it is?

You mean not get frustrated with the frustration? Just to experience it and give it space. I will try.

Is there a "you" to be disappointed by this?

No, there is just the feeling of disappointment, which will pass through like all other thoughts and feelings if I let it (as with frustration above).
LOOKING OUT AT THE WORLD - THE WORLD LOOKING BACK AT ME!

Where is information about a world coming from?

It is coming from mind.

Is it in the seen? What is it?

I would say that it comes from the seeing rather than the seen.

Are there actual objects out there? Yes/No?

No. If there is no self then by the same token there are not actual objects.

Is there actual distance? Yes/No?

No, distance is a concept.

Is there any separate thing or separate "you" to be found?

No

Is there a boundary to be found between see-er and the seen with this flip?

No

Is there an actual outside or inside that can be flipped around?

No.
I found this exercise very hard. I feel like I am relating to it from the belief in No self. If I actually look at objects then they appear as objects to my perception. And if I imagine being looked at by an object then I too am an object.
Perhaps I have missed the point.
I don't understand what you mean about other guides' questions and it is hard for me to know when I would be ready for this as I don't really know what it all entails, sorry.
I have a long day away tomorrow (Saturday) so will not be able to post then.
Best wishes
Kim

[Noro]

Hello Kim,

I hope you had an enjoyable day!

What is frustration pointing to?

I don't know how to answer this.

I'm sorry, I was using a bit of a short-cut question. All personal thoughts that refer to how we are feeling point back to sensations in the body. In your prior post you mentioned:

I notice that in ordinary contact with friends etc I am less fearful of judgement. There is more confidence in just saying or doing what it feels natural to say or do.

How does it feel in the body (body sensations/energy etc.) to be more confident etc.
Compare with:
How does it feel in the body when you are frustrated.

Thoughts stimulate body responses and vice versa, according to old habit patterns.
Things that annoy us create feelings of contraction or tension in a particular location in the body.
When there is something pleasing there is a body response of spaciousness, lightness, expansion.
The word is the pointer; the word is not the experience.
The experience of body sensation is simply body sensation with no label. Thought gives it a lable.
But when there is physical pain, or muscular tension due to frustration for example then it is worth going deeper and being in a state of allowing for those body sensations to be there. They are only temporary!

Can you allow those body sensations the space to be seen and felt?
Can you watch those thoughts to simply float through
Can you allow "frustration" to be there fully as it is?

You mean not get frustrated with the frustration? Just to experience it and give it space. I will try.

Yes, exactly that, look at the resistance to being frustrated. That is an avoidance of being fully with the sensations. Wanting the outside world to conform to our own personal expectations.
The body sends signals and vice versa. The habitual tendency is to divert away from what's going on in the body into more thought narratives and/or activity.
Anything labelled personal is a full experience of thoughts and body sensations.

Pick two recent experiences where you have found yourself to be reactive.
What are the thoughts concerning the issue?
Is the issue pleasant or unpleasant.
What sensations are arising in the body?
Where are they located?
Please take a moment to sit and be with the sensations in the body. It may be that you are unaware of any sensations at first, but stick with it, you will find some body sensation somewhere.


LOOKING OUT AT THE WORLD - THE WORLD LOOKING BACK AT ME!

I found this exercise very hard. I feel like I am relating to it from the belief in No self. If I actually look at objects then they appear as objects to my perception. And if I imagine being looked at by an object then I too am an object.

Apologies if the exercise was a bit misleading in the way it was written. It is really a bit of a play between shifting attention between direct experience of pure seeing without a self, back into focusing on one particular colour, form, 'thing'. And playing with looking out at that 'thing' and then receiving being 'looked at' back. It is a kind of neutral looking experience. Is there an energetic shift from one perspective to another. Allow it be to playful!

I don't understand what you mean about other guides' questions and it is hard for me to know when I would be ready for this as I don't really know what it all entails, sorry.

"You" won't be ever be ready!!!

My sense from the previous questions is that it has been clearly seen that there is no separate self running the show, but it hasn't yet integrated into a 'relaxed' knowing. We are constantly being offered invitations take things personally, our language is set up that way, but after a while this will become more of a mute issue, we won't continue to 'bite the hook' as often as we have in the past. We can respond freely from the perspective on an "I" without taking it seriously..... just as you mentioned in the quote:

I notice that in ordinary contact with friends etc I am less fearful of judgement. There is more confidence in just saying or doing what it feels natural to say or do.

So we can keep going with our conversation until you get a strong sense of feeling of being "done".

This is an organic process of de-conditioning. There's no "you" that can do or not do, it is all taking place in exactly the way that it is.

Warmly,
Rowena

[Noro]

I just listened to this video by Angelo Dilullo and thought it might resonate with you.

https://youtu.be/Res9pyecwhU?is=y470Vps93fSrPk8g

Please let me know how it lands with you.

Rowena

[Tanglier]

Hi Rowena
I composed a long reply and then lost it when I clicked on the video link! I'll try to redo it tomorrow. The video was good, though, very well chosen, thank you. I am signed on to a Di Lullo retreat week in August so I guess I will get more of the same then! I like his striaghtforward, no nonsense approach.
Best wishes
Kim

[Tanglier]

Hi Rowena

Pick two recent experiences where you have found yourself to be reactive.
What are the thoughts concerning the issue?
Is the issue pleasant or unpleasant.
What sensations are arising in the body?
Where are they located?
Please take a moment to sit and be with the sensations in the body. It may be that you are unaware of any sensations at first, but stick with it, you will find some body sensation somewhere.

It is hard to reproduce the feelings when I recall incidents, and even in the midst of incidents I tend to have a welter of thoughts rather than feelings, but my sense is that there is slight contraction with reaction and slight expansion when there is no reaction, or less reaction. For example if I laugh off something that would normally cause a reaction I notice a loosening rather than a tightening. The thoughts that come in with reaction tend to be negative ones, judgemental ones, the usual stuff, and the 'issue' (by which I take it you mean the result/outcome) is unpleasant.

My sense from the previous questions is that it has been clearly seen that there is no separate self running the show, but it hasn't yet integrated into a 'relaxed' knowing. We are constantly being offered invitations take things personally, our language is set up that way, but after a while this will become more of a mute issue, we won't continue to 'bite the hook' as often as we have in the past. We can respond freely from the perspective on an "I" without taking it seriously.....

A useful summary, thanks. A 'relaxed knowing' sound good.

So we can keep going with our conversation until you get a strong sense of feeling of being "done".

Thank you!
Kim