I am here because I couldn't not have been

[warissem]

Hi Kalyani

Saw today that there were these limiting thoughts that somehow sitting quietly could be happening by itself, but taking action was done by a “me”. I understand/see that there is no difference at all between sitting/meditating/working/talking. There is no need to be quiet to see or realize haha no matter what i do, it’s all the same. It’s all happening. I do see how it all happens by itself.

Is taking action done by you (a me) or all it happens by itself? Let me know where you are at.

Last night I was hearing a sound, which was surprising, it never happened before. Like this droning noise that was also kind of like of music, this constant sound. Didn’t hear it again today.

All experiences are changing.

Today there was definitely more time “awake” so to speak than other days.

Glad to hear this. The key is to be here now and not taking the train of thoughts.

I’m starting to see thoughts differently. I recognize them as thoughts more often throughout the day. Fall into the trap of chasing them less often through the day.

Great.How about the "I" and "me" thoughts?

And since life is just unfolding, it’s fascinating that this is also unfolding all on its own. Like some thoughts come to remind other thoughts that they are just thoughts and it all happens without a me.

Oh Oh oh, there is acceleration here. Yes, there is no you in the scene, is it clear as water on the rocks?

Here is an exercise which will help to deepen the seeing of no you, no separate self.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands,

Best for you

[Kalyani]

Hi,

I’m soreu I haven’t had time to respond, it’s my sons 5th birthday this weekend so there is a lot of commotion. I will write as soon as I have a little time tonight or tomorrow.

[Kalyani]

Is taking action done by you (a me) or all it happens by itself? Let me know where you are at.

I KNOW that action happens by itself, I've seen it now a lot of times, but still can't say that it is a visceral knowledge all of the time.

The key is to be here now and not taking the train of thoughts.

yes, this was seen and understood, but it still seem to require some reminding by passing thoughts. But these thought reminders to be here now are now very frequent, so frequently placing "me" into the "here now".

Great.How about the "I" and "me" thoughts?

They are still around :) but frequently questioned by other thoughts that come right after saying "there is no you".

Yes, there is no you in the scene, is it clear as water on the rocks?

It is clear, but still there is "falling asleep" throughout the day. I hope you know what I mean.

I did the exercise about the body. I loved it, its awesome. I've actually had some of these realizations in the past too just spontaneously.

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No to the first two. Third question - body shape and form can't be experienced/felt when eyes closed, but some of it can be seen with body's eyes.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

The boundary can't be felt. There are areas of varying sensations where clothing or chair touches the body, but not a felt boundary.

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

The inside and outside can't be felt or experienced in reality. It's clear that its an idea, not an experienced reality. But again, i can see the boundary/the skin with my eyes.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

When experienced with eyes closed, its just changing sensations. With eyes open, there is an object that can be seen.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Again, the only actual experience of the body are the varying sensations. It feels like an energy field with various sensations popping up here and there. Just as thoughts just pop up here and there, so do bodily sensations. Also, I can see some of the body with my own eyes, so it is also that, an object I can see.

[warissem]

Hi Kalyani

I KNOW that action happens by itself, I've seen it now a lot of times, but still can't say that it is a visceral knowledge all of the time.

Yes, it takes time to settle. It is like learning how to ride a bike, it needs a continuous practice and many falling down.

yes, this was seen and understood, but it still seem to require some reminding by passing thoughts. But these thought reminders to be here now are now very frequent, so frequently placing "me" into the "here now".

Great.How about the "I" and "me" thoughts?

They are still around :) but frequently questioned by other thoughts that come right after saying "there is no you".

Yes, there is no you in the scene, is it clear as water on the rocks?

It is clear, but still there is "falling asleep" throughout the day. I hope you know what I mean.
Yes, there are moments of being aware knowingly and moments of being aware unknowingly. There is a movement of flip flopping. Here is a video about this :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDzrCLlrj4

I did the exercise about the body. I loved it, its awesome. I've actually had some of these realizations in the past too just spontaneously.

Great, glad to know that you loved it. Practice it whenever there is time.

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No to the first two. Third question - body shape and form can't be experienced/felt when eyes closed, but some of it can be seen with body's eyes.

Is a body seen or just colors of what is called a body?
Have you ever seen a body in 3D or is it just a mental image?
You can look at human bodies, animals, trees, cars, buildings, ... and find that we never see the object as it is designed.

The boundary can't be felt. There are areas of varying sensations where clothing or chair touches the body, but not a felt boundary.

Are there 2 sensations or one single sensation ?

The inside and outside can't be felt or experienced in reality. It's clear that its an idea, not an experienced reality. But again, i can see the boundary/the skin with my eyes.

It is not experienced, yes. A skin is just a skin, it is not a boundary. A boundary is something separating one thing from the other, OK? Do you mean that the skin is separating the inside from the outside of the body ? How about the air inside the body, is it different from the air outside of the body?
When eyes are closed, there is knowing of sensations, tinglings, sounds, eventually smells. Is the knowing separate from the whole experience?
When eyes are open, is the knowing of appearances separate from the appearances?

When experienced with eyes closed, its just changing sensations.

Yes.

With eyes open, there is an object that can be seen.

Are sensations available when eyes are open ?

Again, the only actual experience of the body are the varying sensations. It feels like an energy field with various sensations popping up here and there. Just as thoughts just pop up here and there, so do bodily sensations. Also, I can see some of the body with my own eyes, so it is also that, an object I can see.

Good observations.

Here is an exercise which points out the difference between direct experience and content of thought.

There are two types of thoughts:
(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise and it can be applied to the body :
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is really happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

Best for you

Happy birthday for your son.

[Kalyani]

Yes, it takes time to settle. It is like learning how to ride a bike, it needs a continuous practice and many falling down.

This is comforting.

Is a body seen or just colors of what is called a body?
Have you ever seen a body in 3D or is it just a mental image?
You can look at human bodies, animals, trees, cars, buildings, ... and find that we never see the object as it is designed.

So this is stirring something I can’t quite put my finger on. If I don’t see the body in 3D, that means I don’t see anything in 3D. Just variations of moving colours. There are some drawings I’ve seen that looks like they are truly 3D objects. But yet they are just drawings. Are you saying we just see colours and we aren’t really seeing 3D objects. It vaguely makes sense.

Are there 2 sensations or one single sensation ?

Actually just 1 sensation. I tried sending 2 sensations and realized I couldn’t do it in the same moment. There seems to just be one of everything in a given moment/just one thing not broken into pieces in the moment.

It is not experienced, yes. A skin is just a skin, it is not a boundary. A boundary is something separating one thing from the other, OK? Do you mean that the skin is separating the inside from the outside of the body ? How about the air inside the body, is it different from the air outside of the body?
When eyes are closed, there is knowing of sensations, tinglings, sounds, eventually smells. Is the knowing separate from the whole experience?
When eyes are open, is the knowing of appearances separate from the appearances?

Yes I see how it is ridiculous to say that the skin is separating the inside of something from something else. Knowing is not separate, it seems that without knowing there isn’t an experience. Same with knowing appearances, it’s can’t be separate from appearances, they are just one thing. It’s very obvious.

Are sensations available when eyes are open ?

They are. Everything sort of blends into flowing awareness of things that are sensed and thoughts. It seems some things are more in the spotlight, then other things come forward. Hard to describe, but there is constant movement in the field of awareness.

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is really happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

I didn’t do this one yet, I’ll report on it tomorrow :)

[warissem]

Good evening

So this is stirring something I can’t quite put my finger on. If I don’t see the body in 3D, that means I don’t see anything in 3D. Just variations of moving colours. There are some drawings I’ve seen that looks like they are truly 3D objects. But yet they are just drawings. Are you saying we just see colours and we aren’t really seeing 3D objects. It vaguely makes sense.

There is seeing in 3D. What is seen is not as it is designed or imagined. Example : a building is designed as a an object with a basis, 4 faces and a roof but when we look at building we can see only 2 faces at a time. This example can be applied to other objects.

Actually just 1 sensation. I tried sending 2 sensations and realized I couldn’t do it in the same moment. There seems to just be one of everything in a given moment/just one thing not broken into pieces in the moment.

Good observation.

Yes I see how it is ridiculous to say that the skin is separating the inside of something from something else. Knowing is not separate, it seems that without knowing there isn’t an experience. Same with knowing appearances, it’s can’t be separate from appearances, they are just one thing. It’s very obvious.

Yes, how do you feel to see this?

They are. Everything sort of blends into flowing awareness of things that are sensed and thoughts. It seems some things are more in the spotlight, then other things come forward. Hard to describe, but there is constant movement in the field of awareness.

You are doing a good job here.

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is really happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

I didn’t do this one yet, I’ll report on it tomorrow :)

Don't forget the exercise about the cup.

Best for you

[Kalyani]

There is seeing in 3D. What is seen is not as it is designed or imagined. Example : a building is designed as a an object with a basis, 4 faces and a roof but when we look at building we can see only 2 faces at a time. This example can be applied to other objects.

Yes I get that, makes me think how usually things are seen on autopilot without questioning what is actually being seen.

Yes I see how it is ridiculous to say that the skin is separating the inside of something from something else. Knowing is not separate, it seems that without knowing there isn’t an experience. Same with knowing appearances, it’s can’t be separate from appearances, they are just one thing. It’s very obvious.

Yes, how do you feel to see this?

To see what is described above is a beautiful experience, the feeling of freedom, weightlessness, appreciation for all things, like every little thing is so heartbreakingly beautiful :)

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Can't grasp an image of a cup, can't drink from it of course. It is just an image of a cup, it is not a "real" cup. I can see that mental images are just fantasies. About the image of the body being the same as the image of the cup, I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean there is a mental image of the body, which is a fantasy, and then there is the actual experience of the body different from the mental image?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is really happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

Have been doing this, mental images/thoughts are almost always imagination. Very rarely there are thoughts related to what is happening in the moment. I realized I've been living in thought, not in the actual experience of the now. The pure experience of the now is exhilarating, it feels so new and unexplored. Without giving too much attention to thoughts, there is so much to be experienced in every moment, that is always new and unknown. It's fascinating.

I mentioned before, and seeing it clearer now how I seem to "fall asleep" most when talking to people. This sense of "I am doing the talking" turns on. Like the talking/relating to others can't just be happening, I am doing it! seeing it now, so I think this belief is starting to fall away too.

[warissem]

Good evening

I am glad that things are clearer for you.

Do you mean there is a mental image of the body, which is a fantasy, and then there is the actual experience of the body different from the mental image?

It is like the example of the building : have you ever seen a body from the face and from the back at the same moment?

Just notice that all "what is seen" is different from the mental image of it.

There is a deepening exercise. You will need to sit yourself near a clock that has an audible second hand. If you don’t have a ticking clock, look for a clock on Youtube.

Allow your eyes to close gently.
Listen to the sound. “Tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock”

Focus on the tick tock. Attune to the sound itself. IGNORE any explanatory thoughts about what must be creating the sound.

Try to find the clock.

1. Going just by the tick tock sound, do you find a clock present?
2. Is there any direct/actual experience of a clock in the sound?
3. Does the sound come self-labelled as originating from the clock?
4. Do you find a clock hidden in the sound?
5. Do you find a clock beyond the sound?
6. In your direct/actual experience of the sound, do you find any evidence that the sound is caused by a clock?

Allow your eyes to open.

Were you able to establish that in your direct/actual experience of the tick tock sound, that there was a clock?

Were you able to find a division between hearing and sound?
Were you able to establish where hearing ended and sound begin, or was there just pure experience labelled as sound?

For a sound to be ‘known’ then there must be a ‘knowing’ (experience) of sound! Can a dividing line be found between the ‘knowing’ (experience) of the sound and the sound (known) itself? Or is there only ‘knowingknown’?

Best for you

[Kalyani]

Hi, I did the clock exercise. It was clear that the sound did not equal a clock. The sound and hearing were not separate. In fact, it felt like the sound was not even “heard” but somehow felt. Same as seeing, it is clear there isn’t a separation between the sound and the hearing. There is no dividing line between knowing and the experience.

I like these deepening exercises a lot, they are very helpful. Thank you!

[warissem]

Hi Kalyani

Great. I invite you to go for a walk in nature or in a park and just be aware of what is going on, look at the flow of life.

Is there a separate self in any shape or form?
Is there still seeking?
If so, what is missing?

Best for you

[Kalyani]

Hi, I haven't had a chance to spend some time in nature yet. I want to just take a couple days to find the time and also to give an answer to your three questions. I want to be sure especially on the question if there is still seeking.

[warissem]

Good morning

Take time for it.

Best wishes

[Kalyani]

Is there a separate self in any shape or form?
Is there still seeking?
If so, what is missing?

Hi! Long time no speak.

Here is where I’m at. There isn’t a separate self, I’m sure of it.

It is hard to answer if there is still seeking. Anytime there is what I’d called seeking before, it is recognized as just thoughts and it ceases.

There are still “I” thoughts and many times of getting lost in thoughts. But also lots of very joyful moments every day of a different quality than before.

I’m not totally sure if we have accomplished what we set out here to do. Maybe this is it?

[warissem]

Hi Kalyani

Here is where I’m at. There isn’t a separate self, I’m sure of it.

Glad to hear that.

It is hard to answer if there is still seeking. Anytime there is what I’d called seeking before, it is recognized as just thoughts and it ceases.

Yes, yes, great recognition here. When light is shining on the seeker, it is seen as a thought.

There are still “I” thoughts and many times of getting lost in thoughts.

Yes, "I" thoughts come and go, as all other thoughts, do you give credit to "I" thoughts?
Is there a separate entity standing behind the "I" thought?
Is there you, Kalyani lost in thoughts? Or is there being aware of thoughts?
Can a thoughts story be here without the knowing (being aware) of it?
Can clouds be seen without the sunlight?

But also lots of very joyful moments every day of a different quality than before.

Wonderful.

I’m not totally sure if we have accomplished what we set out here to do. Maybe this is it?

You have to answer to yourself.

I invite you to do this exercise to deepen the seeing :

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where Kalyani autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which Kalyani is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

Waiting for your insights

[Kalyani]

Hi :)

Yes, "I" thoughts come and go, as all other thoughts, do you give credit to "I" thoughts?

There is definitely still a tendency to give more credit to the I thoughts, or somehow more attention fixates on them than other thoughts.

Is there you, Kalyani lost in thoughts? Or is there being aware of thoughts?
Can a thoughts story be here without the knowing (being aware) of it?

When I say lost on thoughts I think what I mean is that the thoughts are front and centre in the field of awareness with all other inputs fading to the background. And this creates feelings that aren’t as pleasant as when thoughts are more in the background. But the thoughts keep hogging the attention all the time.

Can a thoughts story be here without the knowing (being aware) of it?

It can’t, it wouldn’t exist with the knowing of it.

1. Can you find anywhere where Kalyani autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

I can’t find Kalyani, but feels like there are choices that get made somehow. How do they get made? Just the same way the wind blows here and there? I don’t know.

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

So I’ve been trying to understand how this or that thing happens that “I” do. I’ll choose the example of what to wear in the morning. It seems there is a quick swarm of thoughts that pass through the mind one after the other listing all considerations very quickly and sometimes even going back and forth on a decision. For example thoughts like: I’m cold, I need a sweater, the one I want is downstairs, should I go get it? Nah, I’ll just grab this other one. Then I grab it and on to the next thing. It seems that thoughts often preceed a decision. We established before that there is no me who controls thoughts. I saw them just coming on their own. But they are not just some random happening all the time. Like thoughts about a sweater come in a situation where a sweater is needed. Who orchestrated that?

3. Can anything be found for which Kalyani is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

This is a tricky one. Before, I used to think I am responsible for doing my job at work and also for my kids for example. Today I don’t think there is a “me” responsible for doing my job. I see it just gets done. But I have a harder time saying there isn’t a “me” responsible for my kids. Hmmm I know it doesn’t make sense logically. I guess it is where a belief is hanging on .