Asking on behalf of an imaginary friend

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Jason
My all time favorite pointing -
Question Everything even your answers to the questions, even the questions. Is it True?

[overthought]

Take the labels away what is there? Take the word frustration away, what is there? The same with anger, sadness, grief, exhaustion, guilt, shame, and overwhelm what is there?

Under all of these, there's only sensation.
Seeing there isn't an experiencer or experience of this sensation, there's also no one to experience thoughts that tell stories about the sensation. All that's True is that sensation and thought arise.

Lets try this exercise:
1. …Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body…

No. There is a thought of an intention to do an arm moving exercise, but there is no one to do such a thing. During the exercise, the arm moves and pauses with no preceding decision/thought/command.

Question Everything even your answers to the questions, even the questions.

In answering the previous arm question, I was going to write "In experience, the arm moves and pauses..." but then found different words since there's no experiencer and therefore no experience. It's seen then that even the term Direct Experience is just a pointer doing the best that words can do.

2. Can you choose to fall asleep?

Just like the arm movement, there's a thought about intention to go to sleep. There's no moment/point of a choice to suddenly be asleep. Unlike the arm movement, there isn't even awareness of sleep having begun. In fact, there's no DE to confirm that that sleep ever actually happens.

3. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

No, same as the arm movement and sleep, there's no chooser and no choice. A thought arises (unchosen); it's about intending to choose the next thought. Then a next thought arises, unchosen. And it's unchosen even if that thought is "I'll choose to think about something specific and unexpected... okay, I choose blue paint."

4... physical sensation ... 5... emotion, mind state, attitude ... 6... Think of a number ...

In each of these variations, the result is the same. A thought that no one chose arises to say there's an intention to choose. But instead of any choosing process occurring next, the thing (sensation, emotion, number, etc.) arises with no indication of its source and no suggestion of a process of deciding or weighing options.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Jason,

Take the labels away what is there? Take the word frustration away, what is there? The same with anger, sadness, grief, exhaustion, guilt, shame, and overwhelm what is there?

Under all of these, there's only sensation.
Seeing there isn't an experiencer or experience of this sensation, there's also no one to experience thoughts that tell stories about the sensation. All that's True is that sensation and thought arise.

If no experiencer and no experience take away these words and what do you have ?
Take away sensation and thought labels what do you have?

3. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

No, same as the arm movement and sleep, there's no chooser and no choice. A thought arises (unchosen); it's about intending to choose the next thought. Then a next thought arises, unchosen. And it's unchosen even if that thought is "I'll choose to think about something specific and unexpected... okay, I choose blue paint."

So if no chooser what is the origin of a choice?

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where 'Jason' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'Jason' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?
Let's try the initial question again and see what comes up this time in response to the sentence "there is no separate self in any shape or form, there never was, there is no controller or decider either and there never was".

[overthought]

If no experiencer and no experience take away these words and what do you have ?

What's left without these words is just "this," just what is, that which "DE" points to.

Take away sensation and thought labels what do you have?

There's only "this."
The mind has painted a convincing illusion, using labels to invent boundaries, but it's all "this."

So if no chooser what is the origin of a choice?

Oh! There is no choice. There's just the content of a thought that happens to be about choosing.
---
If no thinking mind shows up to imagine your mountain stream scene divided into separate elements based on that mind's "preferred" grouping of qualities, then there is no / stream / choosing / a path around / rocks / and trees. There's just what is. An "ever-changing pattern" as you said.
I've never practiced Zen or worked with koans, but in seeing all of the above, it arose that there could never be a tree falling in the forest with no one around to hear it.

1. Can you find anywhere where 'Jason' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

No. There are thoughts about choosing, but they flow down the stream as uncontrolled and unchosen as any other thought or occurrence.

2. Now please consider a regular decision ... ...Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? ...

Ok: "Should I go in the kitchen and get food now, or just a drink?" First, that question was not chosen by anyone or any apparent process. The thought simply showed up to choose a "regular decision" to use for this exercise. Attention went to the body and sensations were noticed. Thoughts labeled these as mild hunger and thirst. The thought arose that these should be used for the exercise.
Still sitting on the couch, attention is now on thoughts about choosing. The thought "quickest and easiest" spontaneously arose, unchosen, and then a that "quick and easy" are good reasons to choose getting a drink. Events continued this way, with only spontaneous thoughts and actions arising and no sign of an autonomous entity intervening in their flow.

3. Can anything be found for which 'Jason' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

No, Jason is a compilation of labels and stories. Anything that appears to be Jason's autonomous doing is a thought, unchosen by anyone, about being an autonomous person.

Let's try the initial question again and see what comes up this time in response to the sentence "there is no separate self in any shape or form, there never was, there is no controller or decider either and there never was".

The paradoxes are amazing. No, there's never been a separate "I" self. But the "overall flow" of all the elements which steer mountain streams also steered thoughts of being an "I" in control of a personal life. These were thoroughly convincing ... to the mind in which they arose. Now this mind has been shown its delusion.

I'll switch to convenient "I" language here to say that my mind is wonderfully boggled. It's always prided itself on figuring things out, but fortunately it seems to be able to admit that this one won't be totally "knowable." Reading and watching Ilona's stuff helped because I’d easily have been one of the many believing there needs to be a fireworks/epiphany/altered-state transformation experience.

Continued gratitude, Paul. Your pointings are deeply appreciated! It’s impressive and fun to notice after each set of your questions how it brilliantly did things behind the scenes that I couldn’t see before I found out what my response was.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Jason,
Your efforts are strong and genuine, this is what is required, an authenticity and openness to the not knowing and in the looking.

Take away sensation and thought labels what do you have?

There's only "this."
The mind has painted a convincing illusion, using labels to invent boundaries, but it's all "this."

No-thing else, not a 'moment' not a 'now'(implying time) just the immediacy of This.


The usual belief that 'I am this body' is usually tied in with the belief that the body as a separate item is responsible or 'DOING' the senses - 'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel' etc
We will begin with 'seeing' - Just that one sense on its own.
Close your eyes.
With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics.
Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
What do you find?

Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

[overthought]

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?

Yes.

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

No.

3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?

No.

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
What do you find?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Only blackness is found in DE. The search for eyes yields only sensations which are not “doing” any seeing. The search for a person or see-er yields only thought. Blackness is all that’s in seeing.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Jason,

Please close your eyes for this exercise, just notice any ‘mental’ images or thoughts that appear and put them aside.
Place a hand on a desk or table (flat surface) - Close your eyes. Now 'go to' the feeling/sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on desk' and answer from what you can FIND.

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and desk) or is there one thing – sensation?

2) Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt'?

3) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?

4) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'? What do you find?

Can an INHERENT FEELER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the feeler, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

[overthought]

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and desk) or is there one thing – sensation?

There is only one sensation. At first, it seemed like there could be multiple sensations, not “hand and table” but this finger, that finger, palm, etc. This seemed too much like mind dividing with labels so I sat longer and did my best to release past memory of body parts, and release memory of placing a hand on a table. What remained was, to paraphrase your great term, a single ever-changing flow of sensation. There was no left or right side of this sensation, no individual thumb or palm sensation, but more like a subtle variety of qualities of sensation for attention to flow through.

2) Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt'?

Not at all. There are thoughts about looking for a feeler, and there are thoughts that contain words like “I” or “my,” but those subside and no sign of any such entity is actually found.

3) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?

Just that flow of sensation.

4) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'? What do you find?

Can an INHERENT FEELER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the feeler, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

There were thought suggestions of a feeler, but upon investigation, there was none to be found.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Jason,

What remained was, to paraphrase your great term, a single ever-changing flow of sensation

Nice. In the same way there is a single ever changing flow of sensation, is there a single ever flowing sense of immediacy, of This?
Sit with this and respond with what is noticed please.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began? How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

[overthought]

In the same way there is a single ever changing flow of sensation, is there a single ever flowing sense of immediacy, of This?

The sensation itself is at the forefront of DE. After much looking, there certainly is immediacy, in that there’s only what’s currently happening. Your question once again forced me to really look, because it subtly suggested that a “sense of immediacy” might be comparable to the flow of sensation in This. But, as with a self, I couldn’t find anything that could be pointed to as “immediacy” in DE. It’s more that immediacy just is, and is only noticed in contrast to thoughts of past or future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?

Ah! I hadn’t read ahead, and this question gets at what I was saying above. No, there’s no experience of movement through time.

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

No, there are no distinct “moments,” which would need to be arbitrarily defined by thought, aka imagined.

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

No. Without mind labels, the flow of This isn’t broken up into imagined “events.” This is seen clearly during the simple “hand on table” exercise with the flow of sensation, but not so much when engaged with the world of people and activities. It’s seen in general that “events” are arbitrary and imagined, as they could be defined and divided in infinite ways, but still there isn’t a clear view of It All as one ever-changing flow.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Again referring to what's seen during the "hand on table" exercise: In This, there are no separate moments, not even a “present” one, so none can be seen moving at any speed.

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began? How long does the ‘now’ last? Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

“This moment” is seen to be a mind concept that requires imaginary boundaries. The same goes for “the now” when this refers to something distinct from an imagined "then." There are no boundaries of starting or ending points to be found in DE.
short tangent: This was a sticking point when I worked for a while with recordings of Mooji's "Invitation" pointing, in which he guides listeners to something that approaches DE. But he only goes as far as saying this is experiencing one's true self. Once thoughts of past and future are set aside and attention is just here with "is-ness," he asks questions like "Was it born?" and "Can it die?" The seekers in the recordings always answer a clear "no" to both, but it always really bugged me that this can't be seen without imagining past or future.

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

These are imaginary concepts, so in that sense this can happen whenever the mind labels it so, just not in DE.

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

It’s entirely thought.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

In DE, there’s only what’s sensed, including the arising (but not content) of thoughts. Time is not sensed in DE. It only appears as a concept when boundaries are imagined, appearing to divide the DE into distinct events. Time cannot exist outside of thought because it is fundamentally a comparison of “memories.” Even to use the word "flow" in discussing DE requires forgiving the limits of language, as "flow" involves movement along some line in time.
- - -
This investigation was a big one throughout today, and interestingly brought to sharp awareness the chest constriction sensation I'd told you has probably been here for decades. It was seen that this sensation is very strongly linked to thoughts about use of time: shame about distraction and procrastination, frustration about non-accomplishment, etc. Memory says these stories have been a major running theme from young childhood, through all levels of schooling, working life, family life, and a recent ADHD diagnosis. I'm continuing to follow your guidance for communicating with this constriction, offering it love and gratitude, and telling it that it can move on.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Jason,

Relax into this, and respond with what comes up.

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

No. Without mind labels, the flow of This isn’t broken up into imagined “events.” This is seen clearly during the simple “hand on table” exercise with the flow of sensation, but not so much when engaged with the world of people and activities. It’s seen in general that “events” are arbitrary and imagined, as they could be defined and divided in infinite ways, but still there isn’t a clear view of It All as one ever-changing flow.

"there isn’t a clear view of It All as one ever-changing flow", This will come, don't forget you are having perception shifts which have a lifetime of conditioning to loose, and often it is expectation and fear that hinder the perception shifts the most. You are not gaining these wonderful new ways to live, you are already your true nature, what is happening is you will be losing these conditioned states. The questioning of everything is what facilitates this losing, is this true?

You can notice that this dialogue is just me showing and helping you formulate the right questions to ask, and you are doing all the work to discover the truth.

Expectation that something should be this way or that way, is the driving force behind seeking. Seeking isn't just spiritual seeking, Seeking is all we do, We seek more money, more free time, better relationships, faster more expensive cars, sex, entertainment, always seeking a better more comfortable THIS. Problem arises that 'This' is never good enough and then the next seeking, follows the next and so on. The contraction in the body that this "lack" feeling is generated from is creating the illusion of time, and craving and aversion and everything else that solidifies the notion that there is an 'I' that these seeking events happen to.

When you go into deep sleep you have no awaken state awareness, and the awakening from deep sleep is only recognized by the environment change like daylight, but if you were in a totally noise free and light free environment and you went into deep sleep and woke up from deep sleep would you know that time had passed?

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?

Ah! I hadn’t read ahead, and this question gets at what I was saying above. No, there’s no experience of movement through time.

Lovely, you opened to this, and it can be difficult to see this.

short tangent: This was a sticking point when I worked for a while with recordings of Mooji's "Invitation" pointing, in which he guides listeners to something that approaches DE. But he only goes as far as saying this is experiencing one's true self. Once thoughts of past and future are set aside and attention is just here with "is-ness," he asks questions like "Was it born?" and "Can it die?" The seekers in the recordings always answer a clear "no" to both, but it always really bugged me that this can't be seen without imagining past or future.

So it is seen. Sometimes, the same pointings are delivered in different language and modalities, it's just what is received when its received, if the openness is there to receive the pointing or not. Life just flows as it flows, look at all the memories of life that got Jason to this, is there a beginning and an end, where was Jason's beginning of life and where is Jason's end of life? if there was one thing that is different in all of so called time would Jason be This? or is Jason just this?
what about everything else is it just this?

[CarefulDog88]

Jason its just a relaxing into the body, an expanding rather then a contraction.

It was seen that this sensation is very strongly linked to thoughts about use of time: shame about distraction and procrastination, frustration about non-accomplishment, etc. Memory says these stories have been a major running theme from young childhood, through all levels of schooling, working life, family life, and a recent ADHD diagnosis.

In THIS, is any of the thought story True?

[overthought]

Thanks, Paul. There’s a whole lot of great pointings in your last two messages so I just keep coming back to them and letting it all seep in.

"there isn’t a clear view of It All as one ever-changing flow"

This will come, don't forget you are having perception shifts which have a lifetime of conditioning to loose, and often it is expectation and fear that hinder the perception shifts the most.

A much appreciated reminder. And I won’t try to wrap my mind around the paradox that it’ll take time to lose the conditioning that creates the illusion of time.

…if you… woke up from deep sleep would you know that time had passed?

No. This was a fun one that hit me last week in responding to an earlier question of yours. No, that I lay sleeping for a certain amount of time is not in DE. Images labeled as light and as symbols on a clock, body sensations labeled as tiredness, thoughts about dreams I seem to remember, and images labeled as other people’s behaviors are in DE. These combine to create a story that a certain amount of time has passed since apparently going to sleep.
—
I’m gonna take some more “time” with your next couple of questions.

Thanks again,
Jason

[overthought]

Life just flows as it flows, look at all the memories of life that got Jason to this, is there a beginning and an end, where was Jason's beginning of life and where is Jason's end of life?

Yes, it’s seen that “life just flows as it flows” but the “memories of life that got Jason to this” are no more in direct experience than if I was telling you about Spider-Man. In either story, the character’s beginnings and ends are only imagined.

if there was one thing that is different in all of so called time would Jason be This? or is Jason just this?
what about everything else is it just this?

This question’s meaning eluded me for a long time, but I think you’re asking if there’s anything “special” about the Jason character within the wider story created in the mind. Attention has been focused on the Jason plot line more than any other, but beyond that, no, he’s as fictional as any other element of the story. He’s not the thinker or creator of the story. Nor is he an entity living in, trapped in, or experiencing, the story.
—
Re: your question about the truth of the thought stories about use of time… No, they cannot be true, as they’d require movement along a linear timeline, which is seen to be illusory. Judgement and shame about use of time is a habitual thought pattern reinforced by so many unquestioned assumptions of the story being true. The habit involves comparing the imagined results of the Jason character’s efforts with his expectations and with other characters’ results. There’s judgement of falling short, the body constricts to protect from feared pain, and suffering ensues.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Jason,
Nice looking You are starting to get the hang of this now :). Its's good because once this is seen it can't be unseen and the tools you are developing now are for you to use, as you move through the flow of life.

Ill rephrase that last one.
If your mother hadn't had met your father, would there be a Jason, what about if your grandmother hadn't met your grandfather, or 5 generations ago if the two distant parents hadn't met would there be a Jason?
What comes up when you consider this?


Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.

Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance? Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

Is there anything which is not just happening?

Come back and tell me what you found. this will be trying to describe the indescribable but try anyway.