Did all ready happened

[poppyseed]

Hi Indi

About the whole way of answering, looking thing. There isn’t jet answering the way you prefer. You know I never ask and have debates about any of those questions in my life. Not even in my native language.
…

There is no right or wrong answer. Also no previous knowledge is necessary – I point, you look and report. Simple! There is only what is noticed at the moment. It could be just language but I use your writing to probe for unquestioned beliefs. That’s all. This is not school, there is no grading or medals, or recognition, this is only for your benefit. So wherever I see something that resembles a belief, I point to it. If it’s just an expression – all good! I think it is in your best interest not to leave a stone unturned :)

You are doing great!

Slips away to whom? To no one. Then why doesn't it occur when it is in need? It just doesn’t. Thoughts runs their own show. So what to do about it? Nothing. No one to do anything.

:)))

Many people know me as a persistent character. Sometimes brutally persistent. I am wondering what that persistence is? It’s just something that is happening without any particular reason. It could be thoughts appearing, thinking happening and that continuum is labeled persistence. Or can be for example sensation happening, repairing HDMI cable…while most of the persistence in others would stop, this persistence here continued…and in many happenings result is that something is done. In the case of the HDMI cable all the small pins and metal framing manage to fit back together through very tiny holes…and HDMI cable starts to function again. But in between I look at several spots in several boxes if I have another cable. As I was sure that I have a spare one. But I couldn't find it and for the third time I returned to repairing an old cable. Trying and trying, cutting the rubber away and then finally pins fit back into the holes after many tries and sorting out small metal pins to be straight and whole holes casing into the metal framing. In between I thought about what happened to the spare HDMI I had and couldn’t find it. Then I remembered I gave it away with an old LCD TV to my friend a month ago so he could watch the laptop over TV.

You can call that “persistence” conditioning, but that’s provided that cause effect exist. In reality, things are just happening, and thoughts come up with the elaborate stories about it right NOW. Like stories about “other people”, what they are saying, memory thoughts, etc. – very entertaining until it is not

With a series of pointing out questions, each next question of yours is leading closer toward an answer…
So it’s really hard to point out something without revealing it too much and that this will be still experienced before understanding by reader.

All my pointers point to the same thing – the illusion – what reality is and what it looks like. There is no deeper or better – it’s just different aspects to the same thing. Basically, I could have stopped by introducing you to DE. All the rest is just the usual beliefs about how things are. Actually, the inquiry does not stop once the self is seen as an illusion. It continues until all beliefs about reality are tested and see for what they are. I’m just here to give you the initial push/the momentum. I’ve basically introduced a virus thought (LOOK!) that causes all thoughts to be reorganised around the experience. And that happens to no one – it’s self-organised ;)
But again, it’s not like the self is being destroyed and there are huge changes in the whole system; it’s a simple drop of beliefs. The self was never ever there, it’s business as usual in DE. Just thought content is different. And that needs to be checked!

At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and observe interconnectedness. See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses. Hold these questions in mind:
Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought? Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?
Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?
Is there a “you”?

Love
R

[Indivindi]

Rali…
You are doing great pointing.

Thank you to support what we are doing here. Your clarification what we are doing here just settle back my questionable thoughts. I agree to turn around the stones, gravel piled up. Let’s enlighten what is not.
Let’s see how deep are believes here that are not. Huh… :)


Sometime I said that I am coming to the point that there is almost anything that I believe. Hahaha what a believe ;) Let’s found out those pointing’s that will revile and strip that what is not.

And looking will do the rest…just left be the life off what it is.

Is there anything that is separate from everything else?

I went out with doggy yesterday. It was a snowing storm whole day and day before I was on beach.

As I notice thought is happening its own way. It’s not really part of the moment. But body is always part of the moment part of this what it is. Of course looking with DE also this is division that those suppose two parts only exist as thinking as concept/idea. It’s interesting to think about that “can you really believe that you could be except from this what it is”.

Well you can’t be even if you think that you are. Even knowing/understanding there is no one to it what is can’t be outtake from what it is. Never. Just thoughts are in a kind off that gave that separating.

Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought?

Thoughts…I am seeing it…

Is that interdependent movement outside of you?

Huh…all thinking here is putted at questioning…how to express answer. :)

What do I look at? I observe how thoughts are put it together, like a house of cards…just crumbling down… and reappearing striping off.

No movement outside…its merged reality.

Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?

One it.

Is there an owner of being?

Being is.
"being - moving and non moving reality --> sensations --> senses"

Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?

The same one unity. I will just re:Use ALL is moving interdependently

Is there a “you”?

Where am I? :) It’s just AM that is ‘a part’ not even a separation from what it is all-pervading.
Yes can be observed as separation but it’s happening simultaneously no borders.

From climax/drama to clearing the sky…Jay Rali Jay!

Respect, indi

[poppyseed]

Hi Indi
I can see that you enjoyed your walk very much! :)

As I notice thought is happening its own way. It’s not really part of the moment. But body is always part of the moment part of this what it is. Of course looking with DE also this is division that those suppose two parts only exist as thinking as concept/idea. It’s interesting to think about that “can you really believe that you could be except from this what it is”.

Well you can’t be even if you think that you are. Even knowing/understanding there is no one to it what is can’t be outtake from what it is. Never. Just thoughts are in a kind off that gave that separating.

Life is happening. Looking is happening. Getting lost in the story (separation) is happening—with or without the word “I.” The self is not needed for frustration to arise, nor for happiness. It all flows freely, as a response to a situation.
Experiencing thinking is as real as experiencing smelling and other senses. If you pay attention and look deeply, thinking is happening; it is about experiences, and that in and of itself is experience. I know we vilified it, but thinking is innocent, and it’s a great tool in a practical sense and in terms of artistic expression and entertainment. It is part of experience, part of the whole—there’s no need to try to get rid of it. I suppose the analogy with the icons on your computer desktop comes handy. They are used as a visual representation of what is actually a binary code – zeros and ones - so you can make sense of them. They create meaning where there is none. But the icon of email is not really a box with mail in it, the same way as there are no “others” and “objects” in experience :).

Let's review:
What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?
What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?
Is seeking still going on?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

Is there anything else that you want to explore together, like “space”, “time” , “difficult emotions”, “world”, “impermanence”, etc.? You can use the opportunity or explore on your own.

Love
Rali

[Indivindi]

Ehei Rali


Let's review:

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes?

Nothing is different. My days are happening. But…there is this but that becomes in life. That 'but' is that seeing what it is has changed. Like that we lift up everything that already exists, enlighten the foundation of what it is not (what it is) and then on this we settle back everything that exists. And from that point the same thing looks to appear different – we could label it perception changed.

What stays the same?

The program is the same. But decoding is direct what it is.

What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?

There is no place for believing that illusion is happening to you. If illusion is happening it is just experience. This mountain of burden falls off because there isn’t you in need to do a life as life is happening on all levels of senses and thought. Now you can get in the right touch with whatever pops up in life. You just look at whatever it is. And a sort of: if you look at it and it seems let’s say you don’t like it this DE just put it in the right context for what it is.
It's a huge relief.

Is seeking still going on?

No more seeking. Like you came where you always were but before you were deceived and unaware.

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

I would like to address topics like aging/death (time), relationships (partnership), wishing/interests.
In this process we stripe down everything to what it is. Can there be debate or if it is of any sense to talk about ‘beyond’ … hehehe … it’s just melting down this idea right now here ... to talk about something that is untouchable/unseen but jet… this what it is, is here, it is happening… can be again mere speculation/concepts/ideas what is all that - that just is? How so, it is happening like that?

Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

I think I can...
There is no self, thought is responsible for divisions. Or just not LOOKING in it right to the bottom of it. Striped off to the naked DE.
I love this one: thinking itself is also an experience. Hahaha…you name it what kind of thinking experience happened until now and will happen in what to come. Now I see you can like them all even if you didn’t like them before. I am not sure how I will react when something big hits me if I would be so happy about it then :)
Second half of my life was really turmoil, last three years things happen to start settle down to the moment of now. Which seems life has become smooth. Can't be explained how things or happenings fold together. What a flow...
‘Experience happening’ It’s interesting that this idea of duality, good and bad, is just disappearing. Losing the context too.
Experienced by whom? Separate self is experience until it becomes clear that there isn’t anyone to experience experiences. That experience just goes on with or without you, they are happening even if you stop labeling them with word experience.

Is there anything else that you want to explore together, like “space”, “time” , “difficult emotions”, “world”, “impermanence”, etc.?

I would love to explore more. At the moment I just don’t have any idea of what to explore. Except for a few topics I mentioned above. That spontaneous way of pointing out something while we talk is really practical. So please be free to continue the way you see the right direction…I am interested in exploring space, time, ‘difficult emotions/behavior nature’, world/material platform, impermanence…

I’ll be glad to spend a little bit more time in your company exploring until one day this happening vanishes.
And you can always decide to stop it too as it might happen one day that I will do the same :)

As you see I like to write, I like to talk…friends ask me do you ever stop, is there a switch that has on/off :))) There isn’t really anyone that I would know that would go determined into DE process. I have friends that they all somehow search or are of some spiritual practice. There is just one that we are supposed to read the same books (I even gave him Gateless Gatecrashers) …and we hear each other here and there and I notice differences now whether someone is just believing or seeing experience as it is…

And I love to have deep conversations with those people about what is life, who we are and what is this world around us and also topics around god. I still see that I am not fluent in how to deliver a speech in a DE way. In a flowing way, pointing out…I just play around with it now, I like that pointing out method. It's an intellectual roller-coaster – I would say I like the experience of thinking in these fields. Not for the sake of being right but just for the sake of truth – getting to the end of that what it is and just enlighten a bit how strange it is that when we say I am explorer and then you stuck to some believes/dogma just because…(we have plenty of reasons/believes/knowledge/programs) you lie to yourself.

Hear from you thou…

indi 

[poppyseed]

Hi Indi
Lovely! I enjoyed reading your reply! :)

"Crossing the gate" is only a beginning, not an end. You have not crossed the Gate of happy ever after; no, the Gate is a tiny first step, a very important one, but not a final one by any means. Crossing the Gate is only a step over a line—an imagined one at that. Nothing changed, but everything looks different. The recognition of no self is just the beginning of seeing life and “yourself” in a new light. It takes time to clean up all the "mess", to settle in and adjust.
When someone we know dies, it takes time for that to "sink in". It's not that we don't believe that the person has died. It is just they are still part of our lives - we open the wardrobe and their clothes are still there, we walk in the park and we remember when we used to do it together. It takes time to readjust our lives to living without them. That process of “sinking in” can be observed in many other situations – like being diagnosed with a life changing disease, losing a job that we had for a long time etc. Even though the change is sudden and quick, it can be perceived as a long process – it can feel as though something is still sinking in, or hasn’t yet sunk in.
The point applies equally to habitual patterns of thought, which similarly reflect how our lives are organised. When the established patterns of thought are disturbed, thought cannot adapt to all of this in an instant, simply by revising all of our old beliefs. Much of the old organisation lingers on, in the guise of a world that we continue to experience and in habitual patterns of thought and activity that our surroundings continue to elicit. That very much applies to seeing the illusion of an “I” - it’s quite a sudden change with a relatively long process of adapting to this change. It takes time to clean up all old beliefs and conditioning.

To “deal” with this, question everything, and little by little you will notice changes in everyday life: less judgment, more openness; less thinking, more appreciation; less story, more being; less structure, more flow. You will notice that some habitual thoughts no longer arise. The story changes in a way that allows more space for simply being.
There might still be expectations, confusion, and doubt. That’s quite normal at this stage. You may be swaying between “I get it” and “I don’t get it.” You may be thinking that this is not enough, that some experiences need to happen, that you should be happy and blissful all the time. When these thoughts arise, bring the focus to what is present here now. Just THIS. And look again: what is here that wants THIS to be different (including the presence of doubtful thoughts)?

This video by Ilona might be helpful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w

I’ll be glad to spend a little bit more time in your company exploring until one day this happening vanishes

There is no rush. Usually the end of the inquiry reveals itself on its own :)

Can there be debate or if it is of any sense to talk about ‘beyond’ … hehehe … it’s just melting down this idea right now here ... to talk about something that is untouchable/unseen but jet… this what it is, is here, it is happening… can be again mere speculation/concepts/ideas what is all that - that just is? How so, it is happening like that?

You see “how so” and “why” are the domain of thought – assumptions. DE can only reveal what is already here. But is there a practical use of answering “why” beyond curiosity. You can’t change experience according to the understanding – it does not depend on it, it just happens ;)

I would like to address topics like aging/death (time), relationships (partnership), wishing/interests.

I am interested in exploring space, time, ‘difficult emotions/behavior nature’, world/material platform, impermanence…

Noted! Let’s look at time first. Maybe it will provide answers to “aging/death”.
There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
Can a past or future be known? Or all that is known are the AE of thoughts labelled as ‘memory’ that are appearing now?
In actual experience:-
Where is last week?
Where is yesterday?
Where is this morning?
Where is five minutes ago?
Where is one minute ago?
Where is last night?
Where is midnight?
Where is tomorrow morning?
Where is next week?
Where is next month?
Can you find any of these? Or only ‘memory’ thoughts about these appearing now?
So how is "death" experienced in DE? How is "aging" experienced in DE?
Love
Rali

[Indivindi]

Good morning…
Let’s look at time first. Maybe it will provide answers to “aging/death”.

Is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?

That is just a theory/concept/idea. So thoughts.

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

Moments are without borders. They appear separated (thoughts) but are actually just flow.

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

Yes, just when you make conversation about events. In DE is just a flow and if thinking creates the following you can see that there are big gaps and you can ask yourself what are/were those gaps then? Also experiences that are not noted by thoughts. But there were so many notable and unknowable moments that are a part of one motion without borders.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Moment, it just is. No need for conceptualization of something that is happening at the moment. There are just different experiences of the moments. Experience with thoughts or senses. Thinking is happening now but its content is mostly about the past/future. When creativity is there then it is just present. When you are lost in it. In now.
But overall when you look there isn't the past nor the future. Just thoughts.

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

It’s happening live/now. So it doesn’t have a start and end point.

How long does the ‘now’ last?

It is just lasting until one day ... ‘death’ occurs … for an individual experience that is. It is the same pattern as everything … flow … so death is just a part of the flow not even a single event or change of anything as it can’t be out-taken from what it is (unity/interdependence).
Hmmm… But still body experience is changing all the time? Pain is here as the body becomes used? Skin is changing, the dynamic of movement sensation becomes stiffer… What is physical pain? Or we say that’s inevitable and that’s what it is. Happens in all kinds of values of sensation & colors and then just restructure happens. Of molecules and atoms.
I know we said that there is no one to see the body. That body is color and sensations.

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

Now is just now and everything else is mere speculations/concepts/ideas.
Let’s say there was a big bang or like shastras say there are cycles of yugas … if there are cycles it means that when you observe from right distance or close looking that 'now' is again just flow happening now. You can't say that is a split second because it isn't. Can't put it in a time frame. We can’t know a thing about it, now is label and a try to make a concept of it. Who knows how many big bangs happened…perhaps they are happening all the time. >“how so” and “why” are the domain of thought – assumptions. DE can only reveal what is already here.<

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

Now is when the observer is not. When you do something and you are just sucked in. Then when thoughts appear describing experiences, that describing is past, but thought is happening now :)

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

It doesn’t exist except as a content of thinking.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Just thoughts about time…it is a label for the concept that there is a limited frame of happening.

Can a past or future be known? Or all that is known are the AE of thoughts labeled as ‘memory’ that are appearing now?

Past and future are not happening. What is, is the content of the thought for the future. If the experience of it appears is always in the present. And the past is just thoughts labeled as ‘memory’. And if you look at past experience of life there isn’t much memory saved for the flow of life that happened, just fragments of it that are constantly disappearing. And constant selection of experiences saved. It seems that most of the experiencing is simultaneously deleted in most of the cases.
But as thoughts in DE are just happening, looking at it becomes so interesting.

In actual experience:

Where is last week? Where is yesterday? Where is this morning? Where is five minutes ago? Where is one minute ago? Where is last night? Where is midnight? Where is tomorrow morning? Where is next week? Where is next month?

All of them are thoughts labeled as memories.
When scientists say that memory is in a knot network of neurons, I really ask is that so? Or the real engine is unperceivable beyond possibility to know its final way.
Observing scientist: There will always be something more and mostly changing what was said about it before.

Can you find any of these? Or only ‘memory’ thoughts about these appearing now?

It’s obvious here is just now which is not even a moment or fraction. Now can’t be put in a time frame. It is a label for something that is used to define this moment of flow when we talk about it in conversations.
It's neti neti. It's neither moment nor flow. But here it is.

So how is "death" experienced in DE? How is "aging" experienced in DE?

Death is the end of DE experience and it is experience itself for something that is just going on, prolonging as a part of flow and becoming another a bit ‘different/new’ experience. Perpetuality of experiences.
Aging is a label describing the value of sensations and shapes (color) changing in a time frame that is another thought itself.
As nothing is permanent in this what it is. It’s not even ending or starting as it is flowing. It is what it is.
Aging is a flow of experience happening.

I am not sure I came to the end of aging & pain.

Hear from you...
indi
 

[poppyseed]

Hi Indi

Death is the end of DE experience and it is experience itself for something that is just going on, prolonging as a part of flow and becoming another a bit ‘different/new’ experience. Perpetuality of experiences.
Aging is a label describing the value of sensations and shapes (color) changing in a time frame that is another thought itself.
As nothing is permanent in this what it is. It’s not even ending or starting as it is flowing. It is what it is.
Aging is a flow of experience happening.

I am not sure I came to the end of aging & pain.

How is it known that “Death is the end of DE experience” or is it an assumption?? When you see “death” of “pets” or “others” how is this experienced in DE – colours and story about death, right? Or more like the lack of a certain experience? So how can it be known that death is the end of experience?
“Aging” is label for change of “body”. How is change (impermanence) experienced if there is always now? To have a change you have to define “something” – cut it out from the whole, give it existence – and then follow it (the emptiness of “objects”). First, does this “something” really exists on its own? Second, how is it known that it has changed without the memory/thought/story about it? Do thoughts have knowledge (where is this knowledge stored in DE) or they simply appear with their meaning? Third, even the experience of nothing is still experience :)
“Pain” is a label for “unpleasant” sensations. Without the label, what makes a sensation unpleasant? Are “pleasant” and “unpleasant” absolute concepts or they vary based on conditioning (I can think of masochist enjoying pain :))
Can you spot the beliefs here?

It is just lasting until one day ... ‘death’ occurs … for an individual experience that is.

How is it known that “others” have an experience or is it an assumption? How is it known that “others” experience end of experiencing? So based on what do you draw the conclusion that “death is the end of individual experience”?

Love
R

[Indivindi]

BS (Before Script): This before script I write at the end of the answering process on your last post. Just to let you know that my writing is just an open field of thinking/thoughts that are spreading out and all kinds of perpetual questioning happening. And I just let it flow :)



Hi Rali...

How is it known that “Death is the end of DE experience” or is it an assumption??

Thoughts that are assumptions, yes.

When you see “death” of “pets” or “others” how is this experienced in DE – colours and story about death, right? Or more like the lack of a certain experience?

Right, thoughts & colors.
Lack of experience that is happening for its own sake?

Also is there really experience or this is just a label and concept, believing that these are 5 senses and thoughts?
Isn’t it that thoughts are ‘appearing’ that there is no one here that is owner of it?
So all that that we ‘two‘ are happening is actually what?
Can looking really happen to change anything?
As everything is perpetuating ‘it self’?
Can ‘that’ that is supposed to happen be changed by looking?
Is it really possible to look at it in the right way?
How do we know that something is right?
Isn’t at the end of the day everything merely a belief?
Conceptualization.
And all is illusion, no matter how you try to believe or look at it?
Isn’t it maybe that this what it is can’t be grasped at all?

I don’t have a mind to stripe everything right to the bottom with DE. These thoughts are appearing to me that this nakedness at the end is losing everything even though what I am about to lose doesn’t exist. Is that fear of losing life? Even if it is an illusion. Like that this small amount that is perhaps meaningful to you will disappear.
And what is left? Is going to be an ice cold, robotic life that can bring you to total inhalation. And how even that could be boring… No emotions, no feelings…being living corpse, a machine that operates in basic mode operandi? And that this can lead to total opposite results instead just to be and becoming depressed?
When thinking is happening it’s going to the point that at the end of the tunnel there is nothing?
This flow of questioning that brought you that there isn’t any sense about anything.
Isn’t that whatever we supposed to happen all never mind, nonsense?
Everything just is and even that can’t be granted that really is?
Isn’t it just changing beliefs one for another?
One concept for another?
Perhaps there isn’t anything to understand, anything that can be understood?
Yes this whatever it is, is somehow that is present.
Perhaps if you stop looking for the end of it as it is what it is and you can’t grasp it finally, is when this becomes what it is.
Isn’t it like this ‘story’ example:
We or people in general criticize how that what it is isn’t good. That something should be done about it. And then we start to look for solutions and out of one solution two new problems occur. And this goes in a never ending cycle. But in the first place we spend all the time looking for solutions. We spend time looking at the problems. So are there really problems? In the flow of this what it is things happen as they are happening? While I notice and observe ‘corona pandemic whatever’ I notice that many things stopped when activities stopped. Problems disappear.
Also can it really be anything different as it is? If we accept that things are as they are because as they are it’s logical that their happenings can’t be different. So there isn’t any problem at all. As things can’t be different as outcome as in first place as things are.
So there is no need to do anything about it.
You let go, you don’t have problems or nothing against it.
And this part is now thinking about whether there is to do anything more on…in continuation of this DE process? And perhaps just let it be for the sake of whatever it is.

So how can it be known that death is the end of experience?

How can anything be known? Not even to mention that we say that is 100% truth… :))
Everything can be questionable. Whatever we say. Even the truth itself. There is no end until the end happens.
And then it just is what it is.
Another assumption :))))

“Aging” is label for change of “body”.

How is change (impermanence) experienced if there is always now?

With De looking it can’t be. But…to me here all this somehow isn’t quite working out. DE is superfine working in THE environment. With DE you can also say that at the end of the day there isn’t a body at all. There isn't a material world. Everything is 5 senses and thinking. That eye doesn’t see, that body isn’t aging, that everything is illusion… It seems like everything is just a movie. And whatever topic we’ll open it’s the same like in the movie…it doesn’t exist. And even that conclusion is also neti neti. Nothing can be affirmative at all. Is seeing really happening? Are there really colors, sound..etc? hahaha

To have a change you have to define “something” – cut it out from the whole, give it existence – and then follow it (the emptiness of “objects”). First, does this “something” really exist on its own?

Whenever something is divided, separated, division it becomes illusive.

Second, how is it known that it has changed without the memory/thought/story about it?

Color/shape of what I look and remember as labeled this vessel body went in the sun a few days ago. Now it's the browner that it was before. I was chopping wood logs, ax slipped a side and cut my aorta on the inner side of my thigh. Blood starts to pour out like an opening tap. I lost so much blood that I faded down unconciseness.
Floor recolored in red. I die.
So if I go now in the kitchen and put a finger on the cutting board and cut it away this could be nicely described by DE. Isn’t it? So all those happenings are just experience, values of different levels of basic experience & thinking. And that what is DE/AE is absolute? We can say that this way is 100% This what it is? Or just another way of trying to come to an end to something that doesn’t even have a start?

Do thoughts have knowledge (where is this knowledge stored in DE) or do they simply appear with their meaning? Third, even the experience of nothing is still experience :)

Thought’s don't have knowledge. There isn’t storage. Thoughts are, they don’t even appear.
They are supposed to have a meaning in certain conditions or lets say context of expression.
When I talk to my mom, thoughts/words have context that they are understood one way.
When the same thoughts are debated with Vedanta devotees they have different levels of understanding, perhaps the same context.
When I talk with so called enlightened teachers the whole context of the same word can be understood as let say ‘even deeper way’.
When I speak about the same thing with you as DE/AE it has even deeper experience/understanding.




“Pain” is a label for “unpleasant” sensations.

Without the label, what makes a sensation unpleasant?

Somehow this looks super understandable, but when raw experience appears, I could see if things would work, to be experiences as we say with understanding through DE. Then there is no you that is labeling any of these things and labeling is just happening (I agree). It seems we can’t avoid the sensation labeled as pain. Labeling not happening…so until there is labeling there is one of many different values of sensation this particular labeled as pain.
Like… Hannibal Lector's movie when he gave his victim to eat his own fried brains with egg. And he was admitting that breakfast was delicious and didn’t even recognize that his skull was wide opened .

I didn’t meet anyone that would say that happened to him. There isn't any pain in my life as the labeling of sensation stopped for no particular reason…
So then my look goes to my teachers and I ask them if they can give me their life sample…from their personal experience. So that their experience that happened to them sort of brings theory closer to that thing being possible.
You don’t feel pain and labeling stopped to accrue?

Are “pleasant” and “unpleasant” absolute concepts or they vary based on conditioning (I can think of masochist enjoying pain)

Concepts of duality. Conditioned.
Masochism vs. Torturing
I can guess even masochists wouldn’t bear it. It’s hard to say perhaps some would really enjoy it, but truly how many of them would be like that? A few deviants of nature. Anomaly.

Can you spot the beliefs here?

Yes, beliefs and stories :)
It is just lasting until one day ... ‘death’ occurs … for an individual experience that is.

How is it known that “others” have an experience or is it an assumption?

No one has experience. It is an idea that experiences are happening. Just labeling…
These individual experience words were meant as impersonal phenomena.

How is it known that “others” experience the end of experiencing?

No division is his manner. We can always explain something as an experience even if it is nothing as you said above. Just one all-pervading experience.

So based on what you draw the conclusion that “death is the end of individual experience”?

There is no individual experience. It’s just one. It’s not even an event. Death just appears as an end of something but it is just a continuum of what it is.

Am I going too much off topic? Is there any other way as these thoughts just happen to happen?

cheers indi

[poppyseed]

Hi Indi

What is experienced now is completely normal – thoughts trying to make sense of this “new” reality. But is this really new? You speak of DE as it is some special mode of viewing reality. DE is reality – experience is the only reality, everything else are assumptions, stories, fairy tales about reality, that were believed to be true and that made the “world”.
Reading your reply, I can see a lot of nihilism, doom and gloom. There a lot of beliefs here that need to be seen…

Also is there really experience or this is just a label and concept, believing that these are 5 senses and thoughts?

Is there anything else but THIS/what IS, appearing with all the labels (including the DE labels) and stories?

Can looking really happen to change anything?

Can THIS be better or worse? Better for whom? Better presumes a point of view, it’s also relative to the definition of “good” and “bad”.
To “improve” suggest that there is something wrong with it, like THIS can be different than what it IS. But can it be in a different way than it is now, perfect? Also that suggests there is a doer who makes things happen. Language is just useful for communication. The use that you suggest corresponds to “enlightenment story”. It also looks like something that thought loves – finding meaning where there is none, planning “activities” that might happen or not :).
THIS (What IS) is beyond qualities and flaws to be added or removed, accepted or rejected. Perfection is a flawless state where everything is exactly right the way it is. Since perfect things are without fault or flaw, perfection is a perfect condition — everything is 100% great. Faults and flaws in THIS can be found only in thought which, defines THIS as “positive or negative”, to be desired or avoided. Surrendering is what is left when resistance to what is ends.
Just notice what is ‘underneath’ all thoughts.
Thoughts add an overlaying narrative of names, labels, interpretations, explanations over the simplicity of what is.
Instead of endlessly reaching for ideas, concepts and explanations, just let it all go, and see.
Just see what is here now silently, without words.
Just notice what is left when you stop thinking about it.
Seeing ALL stories as empty is where freedom rests. It lies in seeing that concepts are creations of language that serve the purpose of communicating. They are practical, but empty.

Is it really possible to look at it in the right way?
How do we know that something is right?
Isn’t at the end of the day everything merely a belief?
Conceptualization.
And all is illusion, no matter how you try to believe or look at it?
Isn’t it maybe that this what it is can’t be grasped at all?

There is no right or wrong, there is only what is – indescribable BUT experienceable (real as it could be experienced). Through the grouping of concepts, thought “creates” an illusion but is there a believer of the illusion, or only more thoughts about believing the illusion? Is there someone to be disillusioned or disappointed of how things are? Or just thoughts self-organising?
Thoughts are the creators of meaning. They are like the icons on the computer that make sense of 0’s and 1’s. The meaning is part of the experience. Have you seen a Kanitza triangle


The illusion of “things”, “self” and their relationships is created by using concepts about DE
How can the direct experience be different? It just is. The content of thoughts can be different telling a different story. This story could be a fictional story, or DE story; a nihilistic or peaceful story; dramatic or calmer story. They all boil down to stories, layered on top of the raw experience. All stories are empty, however, some stories are truer than others, reflecting DE closer. Also some stories are logical – based on the concepts defined – like maths is valid only within the parameters set. Others are absolute fiction, magical and full of miracles and super powers.

It seems we can’t avoid the sensation labeled as pain. Labeling not happening…so until there is labeling there is one of many different values of sensation this particular labeled as pain.

“Pain” is unavoidable, “suffering” on other hand is optional. “Suffering” is a story about pain – how unpleasant it is, why does it exist in first place, why is it happening to me , and so on.
Can the pain be dissolved or wished away? If there is “surrendering” to “pain” there will be peace with “pain”. “Pain” will stay for a while and then eventually go away – maybe tomorrow or maybe in 20 years. ‘Time’ does not exist outside of thought. Like I said, the content of thinking differs in that how closely it reflects what is happening in DE (life flowing). Stories about having pain and looking for a solution to that – like taking an anti-inflammatory pill, or stretching, or going for a chiropractor treatment, and then the pain goes away – are more logical. Stories about dissolving “pain” through looking or using special powers are more magical. They all point to the sensation ”pain”, and it’s presence or lack of it. So in the end they are empty as there is no “pain” existing on its own but just feeling (THIS)

I don’t have a mind to stripe everything right to the bottom with DE. These thoughts are appearing to me that this nakedness at the end is losing everything even though what I am about to lose doesn’t exist. Is that fear of losing life? Even if it is an illusion. Like that this small amount that is perhaps meaningful to you will disappear.
And what is left? Is going to be an ice cold, robotic life that can bring you to total inhalation. And how even that could be boring… No emotions, no feelings…being living corpse, a machine that operates in basic mode operandi? And that this can lead to total opposite results instead just to be and becoming depressed?
When thinking is happening it’s going to the point that at the end of the tunnel there is nothing?

Wow! What a scary STORY!!
First of all, again, what is this entity that is doing the inquiry and will have consequences out of it – eternal bliss or boring nothing at all???
Second – will DE change is some way? Does the story affect the experience?
I think what you are describing here is also a matter of interpretation – some people might call it “peace”, “equanimity”, “no suffering” – just living with what is. Also, I think you have unrealistic expectations that will happen overnight, it usually is a very gradual process, never ending, I could say impossible. Here is a video for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w
“Human” experience is defined on its own, not dependant on the stories we tell. Stories are a big part of “human” experience, but not all of it :)
ANYWAY, what makes this story anything else but “future” thoughts/general thoughts?
You (thoughts) can go on in circles forever or you can just let all go taking these stories as what they are – fiction.

What else you want to explore next?
Love
Rali

[Indivindi]

Hi Rali…

But is this really new reality?

Reality is the same as it was before. And whatever was all the life until now was a crazy roller-coaster ride with many unpleasant and f****up situations/experiences and also the one that I like and they somehow just passed by. And the product of it is this believing here.
Even though life went its way and is drastically different now, the taste of the past persists. Or is it the taste at all? Or this what is this reality is what it is… dark, disappointed, angry and without any sense for being anything more. And how does the worst somehow persist, why doesn't the nice persist and the worst vanish? I know what you are saying, where is the point of witnessing… So there is no difference in it…

So I label it as boring. Not even mine. Any idea what to do or be.
I am getting to the point just to let it be. I am thinking more and more that I will need time to settle down all that was exchanged between us these days to sink in. To let some time for looking. And just flowing…for rest of my life. Sometimes I think about waiting to finish when it wants to happen.
But what to do in the meantime? When there isn’t me and most of my beliefs are illusion.
Hmmm…Just let it be.
Get used to it :)
Take your time.

Is there anything else but THIS/what IS, appearing with all the labels (including the DE labels) and stories?

Yes there isn’t anything else but THIS/what IS , appearing with all the labels (including the DE labels) and stories.

Can looking really happen to change anything?

Can THIS be better or worse? Better for whom? Better presumes a point of view, it’s also relative to the definition of “good” and “bad”.

So looking at whatever just IS.

But can it be in a different way than it is now, perfect?

Whatever it is, just IS.

But is there a believer of the illusion, or only more thoughts about believing the illusion? Is there someone to be disillusioned or disappointed of how things are? Or just thoughts self-organizing?

Everything is self-organized. YES

Have you seen a Kanitza triangle

I can see it but can also see what it is. There aren’t any triangles.
I didn't hear for it...good one...what perception can happen.

How can the direct experience be different?

Yes, talking about what it is, is almost unnecessary. Talking/stories/illusion.
But these thoughts are popping out by themselves. So there isn’t anything about it to be done as they are pop upping. Also all my writing isn’t mine. It’s just popping up. Isn’t it?
And labeling this is a story itself. It doesn’t really matter what the story is at the end of the day. It’s not up to us. So in this manner I am asking myself if there is anything then to understand, to look as if nothing is wrong. Everything is as it is. So search or looking can end then. Nothing to be found, nothing to understand.

Can the pain be dissolved or wished away?

Like you said, the content of thinking differs in how closely it reflects what is happening in DE (life flowing). And thinking is just happening all by itself.
So whatever I write here is just happening. No sense at all. It’s happening.
Isn’t it?
So when pain is, it is part of that that is. Popping with or without explanation or looking for reasons. It’s happening. It’s part of this IS.

First of all, again, what is this entity that is doing the inquiry and will have consequences out of it – eternal bliss or boring nothing at all???

No entity. Just thoughts/thinking/stories/fiction/illusion.

Second – will DE change is some way? Does the story affect the experience?

DE happens on, as IS. Stories are just thoughts about what it is ...whether they are true or not. Stories.

It usually is a very gradual process, never ending, I could say impossible.

Hehe, so never-ending is going on… They say I am not a patient person :)
I would like to achieve everything yesterday, not today nor tomorrow. All that we see in these two and a half weeks of conversation is a patience with wanting to happen faster but it's impossible to grasp it faster...as I see it is just perfect as it is. It hasn't happened differently in any way, it can't...it is what it IS. And that's IS.
I like all that you write/point out to me so far. I don’t expect that anyone will understand me. That isn’t important. You are doing great things. And I accept that as a big gift.
But it will take some time to dissolve what needs to be dissolving – falling away. As explained in the video.

ANYWAY, what makes this story anything else but “future” thoughts/general thoughts?

Yes, thoughts/stories/words/labels…is happening.

What else do you want to explore next?

Last few days I was thinking that we’ll stop this questioning going on as I would like to give some time to all that we discuss. Just to leave it aside for a few days and then go back to all those posts and read it again, just to sink in a bit more. A lot of it has happened :)

But before that I would like explore this final pool of questioning/topic:
/beauty/attraction/men-female relationship/sex sensuality/monogamism/procreation/celibacy /lust/cheating/love/etc.

These labels are experiences that are happening. In everyday life they are all concepts right? But when something of it happens it seems it can drastically change the course of happening. How to live with any of it? As it seems just burdens if it’s not inline by system value or agreement.
Identified as male the nature of happening is quite opposite as in females. At least it appears as the opposite or we don’t know much about it looking at our own raw dynamic. These bursts of sexual attraction/energy…what is all that that we try to control but on other hand we would just like to let it go let it manifest and enjoy it uncontrolled endlessly? Although when you observe within you and in others you notice that there isn’t a working agenda at all. To someone is happening one way to others another way. But this taste or hunger that is within us, that is constantly triggering thoughts and imagination. If not in day dreaming at sleep dreaming. And this is forced as reality on every corner for any product on any social media…It’s tiring but keeps perpetuate…

How to understand it, get at end of it for what it IS?
Thank you…
indi

[poppyseed]

Hi Indi

Reality is the same as it was before. And whatever was all the life until now was a crazy roller-coaster ride with many unpleasant and f****up situations/experiences and also the one that I like and they somehow just passed by.

We can look at emotions more in depth if you want…

Hehe, so never-ending is going on… They say I am not a patient person :)
I would like to achieve everything yesterday, not today nor tomorrow. All that we see in these two and a half weeks of conversation is a patience with wanting to happen faster but it's impossible to grasp it faster...as I see it is just perfect as it is. It hasn't happened differently in any way, it can't...it is what it IS. And that's IS.

Well, looking is simple – what we do here is just apply it at specific beliefs about self. Unfortunately, the rest of the beliefs do not automatically fall away when the nature of reality is seen. It takes time to examine all. Usually, it happens as they appear, if there is suffering present :). So, no, not a speedy process. Sinking in continues for a long time - you call it integration. Guiding others helps tremendously to see unexamined beliefs, so I would definitely recommend that if you have the time and desire.

But before that I would like explore this final pool of questioning/topic:
/beauty/attraction/men-female relationship/sex sensuality/monogamism/procreation/celibacy /lust/cheating/love/etc.

What a broad topic. Something a bit more specific?

“Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”. Have you heard of that saying? What we consider beautiful is very much dependent on conditioning – what looks beautiful to you not necessarily is beautiful to me. And it is awesome that it is like that – imagine we all go for the same people :). In DE, a colour is a colour – beautiful seems a bit stupid when it’s applied to just colour. Beauty you can say hides in experiencing all – the bad, the ugly, the good – it hides in plain sight. But it takes time to see it.

Attraction, is partly conditioning, partly just happening on its own – depending how you look at it. Can you force yourself to be attracted to someone or it just happens? Wanting to be loved, acknowledged, validated, heard, respected, honored, accepted, and cherished are big wants. It’s common to think that love and acceptance have to come from someone else, from "outside"; only then, you imagine, will you be happy and feel loved. But the love you seek is really love for life itself. There is no one person out there who can give it to you. The heart wants to love freely, openly, and limitlessly. The heart opens when conditions are right. When we are dealing with "others", we are dealing with thought patterns - do they fit "ours" (confirmation bias) (i.e. matching interest, EQ, IQ, etc). That is why relationships don't last based just on "phisical attraction" in "the long term" - generally speaking.
Broadly speaking all boils down to resistance and attachment – “stuff” we don’t like and “stuff” we want. The house of suffering is built on unfulfilled expectations, unmet wants and desires. Wanting “more” is the flip side of lacking “something”. Wanting is a sign that something is incomplete, or missing. But have a look at this differently - wanting more is just that—wanting. Spontaneous actions are happening, and so is the thought story (self-organising around the experience). Noticing of DE happens or noticing of thought content happens – all by itself.
What you can do in stay just with the raw sensations – examine if there is something in them that suggest a lack ( like in the case of being hungry :) ). You can observe the attachments, desires, expectations. If there is action you can take when a want comes up, then take it. If not, just watch, smile, take notes, and release.
Is there an “I” that engages with the “wants”. Is there a doer that responds to the wants? Staying in the gap of the “want” is an opportunity for the thought to reorganise around what really is happening. Seeing the conditioned thoughts that arise with the sensations, checking their validity (is this really happening) – just noticing, staying in being. If there is action to be taken it will take itself – like the want to eat would resolve in “you” going to the fridge… And that is what I mean with “If there is action you can take when a want comes up, then take it. If not, just watch, smile, take notes, and release.”
For a day or two, just watch the wanting that comes up.
In what area does it show up the most? Where is the biggest lack felt?
You don’t need to do anything but notice and acknowledge. Watch what happens, and notice how it feels. Feel the gap between wanting and not having, and observe what sensations are triggered when wanting appears. Bringing attention to the mechanism of wanting will reveal curious things.

If you tell me something a bit more specific (if you can share this here) we can work with it.
We also have some traditional final questions. Would you like to answer those at some point?
It doesn’t mean that our conversation will be over, we can continue exploring together. However, it also provides you with access to support groups and zoom meetings. No rush though!
Love
Rali

[Indivindi]

he hei Rali,
just to let you know I'll be back in a week or two.
Answering what you pointed out and continue where we stop.
Hope that's fine with you.
I'll be back asap.
cheers, indi

[poppyseed]

Hey Indi

Don't take too long - let's keep the momentum going if you still have doubts!
Looking forward to hearing from you!
Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hey Indi

How is it going? Are you still interested in finishing the inquiry?
Is everything ok?

Love
Rali

[Indivindi]

hei hei Rali,
yes I am doing fine.
I'll be back home at the beginning of the next week and I will get back to you & the topic.
Thank you for your concern. indi