It's my pleasure and honor.Grand. I’ll read properly tomorrow (probably evening) and get back to you before the end of the day.
Thanks for your continued questions & support!
Seeking direct experience into my true nature
Re: Seeking direct experience into my true nature
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Seeking direct experience into my true nature
Hi Elad
I still need a bit more time with this. Will come back tomorrow with full response.
🙏
I still need a bit more time with this. Will come back tomorrow with full response.
🙏
Re: Seeking direct experience into my true nature
Take all the time you want, no hurryHi Elad
I still need a bit more time with this. Will come back tomorrow with full response.
🙏
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Seeking direct experience into my true nature
Hi Elad,
Sorry for the delay in responding.
“1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?”
No, not at all. Not ever. In my recent direct experience, there’s just awareness; and vibrations — in the form of thoughts, sounds, sensations.
However,
“4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?”
I’ve not yet fully pushed over. Focusing on the gap between thoughts, there’s still that boundary that exists between inside & outside. At times an immense pressure or energy building that feels like it wants to burst through the imaginary boundary. In my body & mostly top of head. I’m sitting in wide open awareness of the whole, as far out as I can — trying not to get sucked in or distracted by the pull of the energy building & that feeling — but it’s at times over bearing & impossible to ignore. To answer honestly, it feels like Shakti/prana wanting to escape or merge. That’s how I would describe it.
But I feel a bit stuck here… for now.
Sorry for the delay in responding.
“1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?”
No, not at all. Not ever. In my recent direct experience, there’s just awareness; and vibrations — in the form of thoughts, sounds, sensations.
However,
“4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?”
I’ve not yet fully pushed over. Focusing on the gap between thoughts, there’s still that boundary that exists between inside & outside. At times an immense pressure or energy building that feels like it wants to burst through the imaginary boundary. In my body & mostly top of head. I’m sitting in wide open awareness of the whole, as far out as I can — trying not to get sucked in or distracted by the pull of the energy building & that feeling — but it’s at times over bearing & impossible to ignore. To answer honestly, it feels like Shakti/prana wanting to escape or merge. That’s how I would describe it.
But I feel a bit stuck here… for now.
Re: Seeking direct experience into my true nature
Hi Alex,
Yes sounds like there is some strong energy movement/kundalini or such in process. If you wish support with that, you might look to someone who is particularly knowledgable in working with kundalini movement. This, however is outside the goal of liberation unleashed. When you answer the final questions here (please all in one message), it just pertains to seeing clearly that there in fact is no real separate self and no contolling agent. It is not about a state with no sense of self or no sense of inside and outside. It is just about recognizing that wether these things are experienced or not, they are not a real separate self or an agent. Is that clear for you? That is considering the initial crossing of the gateless gate here.
For the vast majority of us, some sense of self continues to operate a lot of the time. The difference after gating is it is no longer taken to be a real separate self that is truly in control or choosing what is happening.
After gating for some further deepening happens where other perceptual filters fall (some call it higher fetters) and it sounds like some of that is in process with you. So if this is clear, please answer the questions with regards to no real separate self or agency and the clarification of that in this process. Please all questions in one message, so it's easy to track. After the LU process we can talk about other ways connect more with other like minded/hearted and continue to explore.
If you want to deepen a little more before answering the final questions, below are a couple of exercises that might support.
With warmth,
Elad
Yes sounds like there is some strong energy movement/kundalini or such in process. If you wish support with that, you might look to someone who is particularly knowledgable in working with kundalini movement. This, however is outside the goal of liberation unleashed. When you answer the final questions here (please all in one message), it just pertains to seeing clearly that there in fact is no real separate self and no contolling agent. It is not about a state with no sense of self or no sense of inside and outside. It is just about recognizing that wether these things are experienced or not, they are not a real separate self or an agent. Is that clear for you? That is considering the initial crossing of the gateless gate here.
For the vast majority of us, some sense of self continues to operate a lot of the time. The difference after gating is it is no longer taken to be a real separate self that is truly in control or choosing what is happening.
After gating for some further deepening happens where other perceptual filters fall (some call it higher fetters) and it sounds like some of that is in process with you. So if this is clear, please answer the questions with regards to no real separate self or agency and the clarification of that in this process. Please all questions in one message, so it's easy to track. After the LU process we can talk about other ways connect more with other like minded/hearted and continue to explore.
If you want to deepen a little more before answering the final questions, below are a couple of exercises that might support.
With warmth,
Elad
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Seeking direct experience into my true nature
Only do these if you feel like it - it's kind of "extra"/deepening:
Deeper Body Investigation
Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.
Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?
(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?
(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’? Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
Deeper Body Investigation
Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.
Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?
(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?
(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’? Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Seeking direct experience into my true nature
Find “me” in the body
Find a comfortable place to sit or lie.
Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit.
Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.
Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit. Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where "insert name" is located.
Touch the exact location of "insert name".
Answer these questions:
Were you able to find and feel "insert name" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "insert name” (If any). Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.
Find a comfortable place to sit or lie.
Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit.
Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.
Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit. Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where "insert name" is located.
Touch the exact location of "insert name".
Answer these questions:
Were you able to find and feel "insert name" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "insert name” (If any). Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Seeking direct experience into my true nature
Thanks Elad
All clear. Ok let me do the two deepening exercises over the next day or two & I’ll answer those questions in full & come back to you.
Appreciate your patience & clarity!
All clear. Ok let me do the two deepening exercises over the next day or two & I’ll answer those questions in full & come back to you.
Appreciate your patience & clarity!
Re: Seeking direct experience into my true nature
How are things moving for you Alex?
Let me know what is happening in terms of seeing, feelings, thoughts...
Let me know what is happening in terms of seeing, feelings, thoughts...
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Seeking direct experience into my true nature
Hi Elad
Good to hear from you & huge apologies for the radio silence.
Things are moving along nicely. Feel like there’s been a bit of a breakthrough in the last few days as a result of your questioning & the deeper contemplation and really feeling into the space around. When focusing on one area, the meditation now happens in a continuous flow by itself. As in I’m not the meditator, it’s just happening. There’s a constant flowing of energy on the same object or area which feels quite solid & also seems to block thoughts out or thoughts are arising much much less frequently if they do. In the past there’s been glimpses of this but it’s pretty constant for minutes at a time now. I think the term might be ‘dhyana’ — at least from reading the description that’s what it feels like.
When in this state, there’s the experience of the meditation happening by itself but beyond that there’s not the same inside/outside boundary which was experienced a week or so ago for example. There’s an incredible blissful feeling & calm and it’s really no effort at all to sit.
Good to hear from you & huge apologies for the radio silence.
Things are moving along nicely. Feel like there’s been a bit of a breakthrough in the last few days as a result of your questioning & the deeper contemplation and really feeling into the space around. When focusing on one area, the meditation now happens in a continuous flow by itself. As in I’m not the meditator, it’s just happening. There’s a constant flowing of energy on the same object or area which feels quite solid & also seems to block thoughts out or thoughts are arising much much less frequently if they do. In the past there’s been glimpses of this but it’s pretty constant for minutes at a time now. I think the term might be ‘dhyana’ — at least from reading the description that’s what it feels like.
When in this state, there’s the experience of the meditation happening by itself but beyond that there’s not the same inside/outside boundary which was experienced a week or so ago for example. There’s an incredible blissful feeling & calm and it’s really no effort at all to sit.
Re: Seeking direct experience into my true nature
Beautiful Alex, happy for you!
Are there more questions you would like for us to work on now with regards to the existence of a separate self who can choose and control?
Is it seen clearly that this does not exist, and that even if the appearance of it comes up (like movie) this is just experience, without anyone separate there and in control of it?
If no questions please re-answer all the final questions, in order, in one post, so other guides can also look at it.
Are there more questions you would like for us to work on now with regards to the existence of a separate self who can choose and control?
Is it seen clearly that this does not exist, and that even if the appearance of it comes up (like movie) this is just experience, without anyone separate there and in control of it?
If no questions please re-answer all the final questions, in order, in one post, so other guides can also look at it.
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Seeking direct experience into my true nature
Hi Elad
Apologies for the delay in sharing this. My responses in full:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
ANSWER: No. There’s no separate entity self, me or I in any way. There never was.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
ANSWER: With no thought there is just sounds, sensation, colours — vibrations. All appearing within or existing within a field of awareness which is all around, as far as can be conceived. Thoughts and social constructs/beliefs create the illusion of separation or a separate self. There is no inside the self or outside the self, that’s also an illusion. The body and mind exists within awareness. Awareness contains and manifests everything. In deep meditation the experience is of a merging and fluidity of what was previously thought of as inside/outside of the separate self. And when looking for a separate me/self there is absolutely none to find and no self controlling anything. Thoughts appear out of no where, with no autonomy and actions happen off the back of that.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.
ANSWER:
On a couple of occasions it felt quite scary to see the truth that ‘I’m’ not in control of anything. In fact there is no ‘I’.
But it also felt liberating and through the inquiry there was an extra level of depth in general and greater fluidity to the perceived ‘separateness’ inside/outside.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
ANSWER:
The question: “Is there a separate self doing any of this? Is there a separate self at all? What is seen?”
When I first read this message almost immediately everything crumbled down and went fluid & it felt there was no boundary for a moment or two. Then mind started to get involved and wanted to assess or judge the situation/sensation.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
ANSWER: there is no “I” making decisions, choices or controlling things. Decision, intention, choice happens organically as part of nature or the world unfolding. Thoughts happen on their own accord and the mind tries to take ownership or identity to thoughts, and therefore mind thinks it has choice, control & free will. But on interrogation, thoughts appear completely out of nowhere — there’s no ultimate control by “me”
6) What makes things happen? How does it work?
ANSWER: Awareness or consciousness is experiencing vibrations within itself & awareness is witness to that. Things are just a-happening or unfolding. Thoughts and actions come up automatically or occur sporadically.
It feels like there is control of thoughts, actions, what words are said or what body movements etc happen. But after investigating it, all of that is also just happening on its own accord. The thoughts come up, I’m not choosing them. The actions happen instinctively or own their own. Or they are driven by thoughts (which it’s now clear to see) appear or occur on their own. There’s actually no complete autonomy over anything. It just happens….
7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
ANSWER: This question stumped me the most as I’m not entirely sure how to give examples. I’m not responsible for anything — just awareness of or witnessing of the world unfolding, thoughts appearing, vibrations happening.
8) Anything to add?
ANSWER: thank you so much for your time & all the questions!
Apologies for the delay in sharing this. My responses in full:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
ANSWER: No. There’s no separate entity self, me or I in any way. There never was.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
ANSWER: With no thought there is just sounds, sensation, colours — vibrations. All appearing within or existing within a field of awareness which is all around, as far as can be conceived. Thoughts and social constructs/beliefs create the illusion of separation or a separate self. There is no inside the self or outside the self, that’s also an illusion. The body and mind exists within awareness. Awareness contains and manifests everything. In deep meditation the experience is of a merging and fluidity of what was previously thought of as inside/outside of the separate self. And when looking for a separate me/self there is absolutely none to find and no self controlling anything. Thoughts appear out of no where, with no autonomy and actions happen off the back of that.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.
ANSWER:
On a couple of occasions it felt quite scary to see the truth that ‘I’m’ not in control of anything. In fact there is no ‘I’.
But it also felt liberating and through the inquiry there was an extra level of depth in general and greater fluidity to the perceived ‘separateness’ inside/outside.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
ANSWER:
The question: “Is there a separate self doing any of this? Is there a separate self at all? What is seen?”
When I first read this message almost immediately everything crumbled down and went fluid & it felt there was no boundary for a moment or two. Then mind started to get involved and wanted to assess or judge the situation/sensation.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
ANSWER: there is no “I” making decisions, choices or controlling things. Decision, intention, choice happens organically as part of nature or the world unfolding. Thoughts happen on their own accord and the mind tries to take ownership or identity to thoughts, and therefore mind thinks it has choice, control & free will. But on interrogation, thoughts appear completely out of nowhere — there’s no ultimate control by “me”
6) What makes things happen? How does it work?
ANSWER: Awareness or consciousness is experiencing vibrations within itself & awareness is witness to that. Things are just a-happening or unfolding. Thoughts and actions come up automatically or occur sporadically.
It feels like there is control of thoughts, actions, what words are said or what body movements etc happen. But after investigating it, all of that is also just happening on its own accord. The thoughts come up, I’m not choosing them. The actions happen instinctively or own their own. Or they are driven by thoughts (which it’s now clear to see) appear or occur on their own. There’s actually no complete autonomy over anything. It just happens….
7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
ANSWER: This question stumped me the most as I’m not entirely sure how to give examples. I’m not responsible for anything — just awareness of or witnessing of the world unfolding, thoughts appearing, vibrations happening.
8) Anything to add?
ANSWER: thank you so much for your time & all the questions!
Re: Seeking direct experience into my true nature
Thank you for your answers, 3 other guides looked and confirmed seeing seems clear, they had no questions.
It was a pleasure to guide you and I am grateful for it. I would just like to give some final things to consider:
For the vast vast majority of us this is not the end of awakening, deepening, clarifying and letting go continues. Doubt may or may not put in an appearance - or many, this is normal. There will almost certainly be aversive conditioned responses that will get triggered when circumstances align. This doesn't mean that you have lost anything (you can't loose what you always are).
Paying it forward by guiding is a great way to 'deepen', consider this option soon or later.
You will be invited to the Unleashed FB group. You are encouraged to use it to communicate with others that have recently 'gated'. You are invited to any of 3 weekly free zoom groups where you can work on anything that comes up or support and guide people who "have not crossed the gateless gate". (for zoom meetings, email vinceschubert@gmail.com)
With future patterns and beliefs to be seen through, the same seeing that took you through the gate will put these in perspective too. The invitation is to walk lighter in the experiencing.
I will greet you at the facebook group if you join, and we can connect there. You are also welcome to write me at eladexplore1111@gmail.com. Thanks again and enjoy.
It was a pleasure to guide you and I am grateful for it. I would just like to give some final things to consider:
For the vast vast majority of us this is not the end of awakening, deepening, clarifying and letting go continues. Doubt may or may not put in an appearance - or many, this is normal. There will almost certainly be aversive conditioned responses that will get triggered when circumstances align. This doesn't mean that you have lost anything (you can't loose what you always are).
Paying it forward by guiding is a great way to 'deepen', consider this option soon or later.
You will be invited to the Unleashed FB group. You are encouraged to use it to communicate with others that have recently 'gated'. You are invited to any of 3 weekly free zoom groups where you can work on anything that comes up or support and guide people who "have not crossed the gateless gate". (for zoom meetings, email vinceschubert@gmail.com)
With future patterns and beliefs to be seen through, the same seeing that took you through the gate will put these in perspective too. The invitation is to walk lighter in the experiencing.
I will greet you at the facebook group if you join, and we can connect there. You are also welcome to write me at eladexplore1111@gmail.com. Thanks again and enjoy.
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Seeking direct experience into my true nature
Hi Elad
Thank you so so much for being so generous with your time over the past few weeks to ask all the questions and making sure I’m interrogating things in the right way.
It really has deepened my experience further & has had a profound effect on the previous concepts held.
I’m so grateful & really appreciate it — thank you!!
I’ll join the fb group & look forward to connecting further in due course.
Many thanks
Alex
Thank you so so much for being so generous with your time over the past few weeks to ask all the questions and making sure I’m interrogating things in the right way.
It really has deepened my experience further & has had a profound effect on the previous concepts held.
I’m so grateful & really appreciate it — thank you!!
I’ll join the fb group & look forward to connecting further in due course.
Many thanks
Alex
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