Ready to crash the gate. Very grateful for any guidance.

[Vivien]

nice inquiry :) you are doing really well :)

now, let's look at this character from a different angle. Is there an actual, real character in real life, or there is only THOUGHTS ABOUT a character, but not an actual one?

Notice thoughts. Is there any difference between this character showing up in thoughts, and thoughts in general?
I mean almost all thoughts about me/I, isn't it?

Try to notice how many thoughts in a day refer to me/I in an directly or overtly. What do you find?

so the job is to notice ANY and possible every thought that is about I or somehow relating to I. What do you find?

V

[oversoul]

now, let's look at this character from a different angle. Is there an actual, real character in real life, or there is only THOUGHTS ABOUT a character, but not an actual one?

There are only thoughts about a character! I recalled the apple inquiry, now it is obvious that having a thought of an apple is not the same as experiencing an apple. So I looked at these thoughts of a character (which arose constantly, so very easy to examine), and they are the same — just a thought. An image, a movie with some imagined sound maybe, any sensation is just imagined and not actually seen, heard, touched.

So I now realise I can’t really say “there is a character” that arises (like I said before), because there is no actual character. That would be like saying “there is an apple” just because I think of an apple! There’s no apple here, no character… It is only thoughts of a character that arise. I don’t experience the character, I experience the thought. I experience these thoughts the same way that I do all other thoughts.

Notice thoughts. Is there any difference between this character showing up in thoughts, and thoughts in general?
I mean almost all thoughts about me/I, isn't it?

Yes almost all thoughts are about me/I! As I paid attention all day, I couldn’t believe that it was literally almost every thought. It was initially hard even finding a general thought to compare these Me thoughts to. But I saw it when I thought of an apple, versus a Me thought - same thing, same elements.

Later on in the day, a song was stuck in my head, so I compared the experience of that to the mental voice of Me (they are both imagined sounds). Same experience. It’s not like one thought was more “real”, or had any other attribute that made it a real character.

I can imagine anything right now, Santa Claus, a green alien, a talking bunny, and all these imaginations have the exact same quality as the mind movies featuring the I character. (Except that they don’t have accompanying emotions like the Me thoughts sometimes do.)

Try to notice how many thoughts in a day refer to me/I in an directly or overtly. What do you find?

This morning literally all of them were about Me, mostly directly — mental narrations, imaginary conversations, judgments, desires, worries, and images accompanying these (for example, expressing a desire and then imagining the desired scenario, starring Me in the movie). Indirectly there were lots of images of things to do today, visualisations of how to complete the tasks, thinking about things like what the weather will be this week as that affects my activities.

Once I began work, more general logical thoughts started, recalling previous information and applying it to problem solve. But still plenty of Me thoughts in between.

so the job is to notice ANY and possible every thought that is about I or somehow relating to I. What do you find?

They were 99% of all thoughts today, a constant stream. At times it seemed so silly to create this character that keeps arising in various imagined scenarios, especially when contrasted with what is actually here. The character seems so insubstantial. Yet it takes up 99% of my energy!

When noticing what is actually here, there’s immediately a feeling of being real, of peace, of subtle joy. I have health symptoms at the moment, and in the character-based thoughts there’s a painful story about how long it has been going on, and future worst case scenarios. But when I just see what is actually here now, there’s just pain in the body and it’s not scary.

But here is where I hit a snag, because thoughts then arose saying: I can’t just ignore this health problem. I have to think about it, to remember how long I have had the symptoms, as the context is important, the long-term nature of the symptoms is what makes them concerning. Thoughts are saying that I need this story of my past, or else no action will be taken. Yes so I’ve hit a fear, that no Me means no solutions, as everything feels fine without a story judging it…
Thank you for reading all this!

With gratitude,
Natasha

[Vivien]

Nice inquiry :)

Thoughts are saying that I need this story of my past, or else no action will be taken.

Fear is common part of this inquiry.

What happens if you don't run away from this fear? If you face it, and really look at it what it's made of....


Are you thinking this fearful thought? Are you doing it?
Or is this something that just arise on its own and you have nothing to do with it?

Is this 'fearful thought' know about the future? Actually know it? Or it's just depict something based on conditioning and logical conclusions?

Does it know, really know, how seeing that there is no separate self will be like?

Is this thought a reliable source of information?

Is this thought even aware of what it is presenting?

Is this thought an entity on its own right, knowing stuff?


Note: Do you really think that seeing that there is no self at the core no action will be taken? Well.... there is ALREADY no self at the core, whether it's believed or not. So nothing will really change. Actions still happens, no belief is needed for that.


Love,
Vivien

[oversoul]

Hi Vivien, thank you very much!

Are you thinking this fearful thought? Are you doing it?
Or is this something that just arise on its own and you have nothing to do with it?

The thought arises on its own, and is not just one thought but made up of a few. Some images that represent past times where I have felt health symptoms before, and/or images that depict a future where I have no resistance to anything, just ignoring the health issue, and getting much sicker! Then, thought comes in and says, I can’t let go or nothing will be fixed.

And there are strong emotions too. But these arise spontaneously like all other thoughts and sensations. The visual images, the verbal thoughts, and the bodily sensations (emotions), they pop up and certainly no one is doing it. Yes lots of different fears popped up today, so I just watch how it all happens on its own.

Is this 'fearful thought' know about the future? Actually know it? Or it's just depict something based on conditioning and logical conclusions?

“Conditioning and logical conclusions” is exactly it, the images that arise are like a computer rehashing information that has been put in before. Things I read from Google searches, or memories, and then extrapolating that into an imagined future.

And no these thoughts don’t know about the future! I can see that they’re just various elements (images, thoughts etc.) that change all the time. One moment, there will be an image of a ‘happy’ future, and another moment it’s the worst case scenario. The emotions that arise are just in response to whichever image and thought appear. Logically I can see that my thoughts of future almost never occur in real life. They are a jumble of different impressions the mind recorded.

Does it know, really know, how seeing that there is no separate self will be like?

Definitely not! No idea. It just extrapolates from a single moment of experience. For example, if I just sit here peacefully, a thought can arise that says “Aha, if there is no Me, it will always be like this! Just sitting here!”

And, how can a thought itself know anything? Your questions pointing to that really illuminated something! I will reply to the rest of the questions tomorrow as would like more time to sink in and write back. Thank you and speak soon :)

[Vivien]

Some images that represent past times where I have felt health symptoms before, and/or images that depict a future where I have no resistance to anything, just ignoring the health issue, and getting much sicker!

This is highly unlikely. Why? Because of love. There is no need for a self to protect and care for a body. Caring for the body happens out of love. Does a cat or a dog needs a self centeredness to protect its body? To find shelter? To eat? To care to its wounds? The belief in a self isn't needed to protect and care for the body... it's an instinct.

I'm looking forward to your remaining replies....

[oversoul]

Hi Vivien! Having applied these questions to that fear thought the last 2 days, safe to say that particular fear is no longer believed and has stopped arising. A few other fears arose (“if I wake up, I’ll act all weird like some of those spiritual people”!) but I investigated them in the same manner, and they dissolved quickly.

This is highly unlikely. Why? Because of love. There is no need for a self to protect and care for a body. Caring for the body happens out of love. Does a cat or a dog needs a self centeredness to protect its body? To find shelter? To eat? To care to its wounds? The belief in a self isn't needed to protect and care for the body... it's an instinct.

Thank you! I was in the forest today, I could see this in the squirrels storing their nuts, a fox looking for food, birds flying to safety, dogs drinking water. Yes they do it out of love… Meanwhile, it seems a lot of actions I take towards my health have been done out of fear! Because that’s what seems to be the result when all these different, contradicting thoughts are believed. Instinct seems to be covered up, and there is desperately trying everything, also because there is such a need to change the thing immediately.

Is this thought a reliable source of information?

Hell no! As I noted yesterday it is like a computer piecing together bits of data, and coming to conclusions haphazardly. This was very clear as I paid close attention to all these thoughts, they were so contradictory and change from one second to the next. One thought says, “I am getting sicker” as an absolute fact based on selectively focusing on evidence, and the next minute it is “I am getting better” based on different evidence. It can come to any conclusion based on what evidence is selected. And my body has an emotional reaction to these, so it is a rollercoaster of emotions.

I also noticed that often, thought comes in after the fact. Like I feel thirst, and then a thought comes: “I need to drink.” The thought masquerades like it has the knowledge, but it was just second-hand knowledge that my body already knew.

Is this thought even aware of what it is presenting?

No it is not! This set off light bulbs as soon as I read it… Awesome. The thought has no idea what it is saying, any more than a sound knows which note it is playing. So, when I look at it like that, it makes everything totally non-threatening. It doesn’t seem to be some entity speaking truth. Instead it’s just mental sound. I have been asking this question every time some story arose that seemed to be compelling.

Is this thought an entity on its own right, knowing stuff?

Not at all, just mental words and images. It’s not an entity in itself, it doesn't know what it is saying - nothing is even saying anything, it's just happening on its own.

Note: Do you really think that seeing that there is no self at the core no action will be taken? Well.... there is ALREADY no self at the core, whether it's believed or not. So nothing will really change. Actions still happens, no belief is needed for that.

Yes I keep bringing up this reminder, it’s not like “no self” is a change of lifestyle, it’s already true now. So any thoughts of a drastic change afterwards, doing something I’ve never done before (like not tending to my body) just makes no sense.

I wonder, without all this frantic mixed up thinking about my health, if I would tend to my body more efficiently. Of course I can’t know, and maybe nothing would change. But, I can say that the situation right now is that the thoughts have not been helpful, and my body just gets more sick. For example, when there is a possible treatment option, thoughts will say “I need to do this or else”, but other thoughts will say “but this medication is dangerous”, and then I just take no action because the thinking is so confused. (That's funny, the “no action” thing can actually be brought about by thinking itself… and I thought I needed thinking for action!)

Love, Natasha

[Vivien]

Hello Natasha,

You are doing really well :)

Just as you noticed, currently actions are taken out of fear (regarding the body). Now, thoughts might suggest that fear or anxiety or worry is needed to care for the body, but is that really true? Just consider how more effective the care could be if it were coming out of love and not fear. Just notice how much fear distorts actions and decisions.

Is fear / worry really necessary for a decision to arrive how to care for the body?

Which decision could be more useful/beneficial the one that is governed by fear or by love and tenderness?

Now, look at this 'voice in the head'. Imagine that you are in a train station and there are frequent announcements from the loudspeaker about the arrival and departure of trains.

Is this mental voice any different to the announcements coming from the loudspeaker?

Are you actively doing the announcement? Or you are just passively 'hearing' it, just as you'd hear the announcements of train arrivals?

Is there a real entity/person behind those mental announcements?

Do you have anything to do with that mental voice?

Is that voice conscious?

Love, V

[oversoul]

Hi Vivien thank you so much for helping me inquire deeper into these thoughts. :)

Just as you noticed, currently actions are taken out of fear (regarding the body). Now, thoughts might suggest that fear or anxiety or worry is needed to care for the body, but is that really true? Just consider how more effective the care could be if it were coming out of love and not fear. Just notice how much fear distorts actions and decisions.

Yes, today I noticed various ways that fear distorts decisions: Often it begins with an image of an imagined future with a scary outcome, and then there is a thought to do something immediate and rash - like try a new treatment, or even, if the imagined future feels hopeless, a thought that I should kill myself. (Don’t worry, I am never close to acting on that!) So fear thoughts can even want the death of the body - definitely not a good caretaker!! Fear can also prevent actions being taken, or result in so many actions that end up overloading my body and make me feel worse.

These “need to fix” thoughts also occur in response to emotions like sadness, for example remembering a time when things were better. Thoughts arise with images of what steps I should do, thinking of any solution in order to squash the emotion.

Is fear / worry really necessary for a decision to arrive how to care for the body?

No, and it does not help! I looked for ways in which I already take care without fear: like when I drink water, exercise when my body feels like it, sleep. These are instincts that are followed easily. And when I was younger, I had no worry about my body at that time, and things seemed to sort themselves out much better.

Which decision could be more useful/beneficial the one that is governed by fear or by love and tenderness?

When fear is there, I can’t feel any instinct. It feels like decisions are coming totally from my head, jumping around to different options and not feeling that any are correct. Then even when the decision has been made, I don’t commit. There is total confusion. Love would be far more beneficial and able to listen to the body without neediness.

Increasingly I am able to see these as just thoughts, and not have to act on all of them. But with certain health issues I can’t yet feel the instinct or love that would be a better course of action. I had some insight today that perhaps it’s because there is so much emotion around those particular issues.

Now, look at this 'voice in the head'. Imagine that you are in a train station and there are frequent announcements from the loudspeaker about the arrival and departure of trains.
Is this mental voice any different to the announcements coming from the loudspeaker?

No it is the same thing, experienced in the same way, just differing tones of voice and accent. Like two people speaking in the same movie. That is to say, there is no additional quality to the ‘voice in the head’ that makes it more real or more me. (It can pose as Me because it says “I” a lot, and sounds similar to my voice in real life. But as a thing, this voice is the same as any other mental voice.)

Are you actively doing the announcement? Or you are just passively 'hearing' it, just as you'd hear the announcements of train arrivals?

I am passively hearing it, they both arise in the same fashion. Sometimes it feels like there is some effort to imagine or think, as if someone is doing it, but if I look I can see the doing feeling is also something just arising, that I am passively aware of.

Is there a real entity/person behind those mental announcements?

There is no entity behind it, it is the same type of thing as other mental sounds. There’s no one doing it or in control (I’m certainly not in control, or I’d be able to stop thinking). If I examine the “I” that it keeps speaking as, it is not even apparent who it claims to be. Sometimes it echoes what my body feels, other times says things I have read in a book for example, and often it says “you” instead of “I”, as if it’s a different entity speaking to me. (Example, “You really screwed that up!”)

Do you have anything to do with that mental voice?

Most of the time it’s like an automatic radio playing, very clearly nothing to do with me. Occasionally it feels like I am using it in order to think and reason things out - for example, while writing to you I often hear the words verbalised in my head before I type it down.

But if I look closely, that reasoning and typing is just happening. Can’t do anything about it- like when I have writer’s block I stare at a blank screen until the words pop up and I find myself typing.

Is that voice conscious?

No, most of the time it is just a mental sound like any other, something I am conscious of. Sometimes it feels like a tool I use, as I mentioned above, so it’s not conscious itself but is a means of expressing something. And like you helped me see yesterday - it is not aware of what it is presenting!

Love, Natasha

[Vivien]

thank you for your answers.

(It can pose as Me because it says “I” a lot, and sounds similar to my voice in real life. But as a thing, this voice is the same as any other mental voice.)

Now look at the expression 'my voice in real life'. We are talking of the voice of the body, right?

So is the body = I?
Or there is someone having a body and therefore 'it's my voice'?

Is there someone / something using the voice of the body to speak?

Is there someone moving the body? Make it walk, talk, eat, etc.?

What does the word 'my' refer to with the thought 'my body/voice'?

V

[oversoul]

Hi Vivien, these were my findings today.

Now look at the expression 'my voice in real life'. We are talking of the voice of the body, right?

Yes, the voice that comes out of this body.

So is the body = I?
Or there is someone having a body and therefore 'it's my voice'?

This body is what I would point to if I had to point to I, me, or Natasha. In that sense I call it “I”, in the same way I call this rectangle thing in front of me an iPad. It’s the label I use for this appearance.

But beyond labels, I don’t feel like the body itself is equal to the sense of self. Rather, the habitual sense of self is more like you said, someone having a body. Like I am riding around in this head, looking out of these eyes.

But, when I actually look at my experience, there is nothing that actually shows I am ‘riding around in this head’ or ‘looking out of these eyes’. I don’t even see my eyes, just what’s happening in this field of view. It’s like I have a sense of being in the body, but then I look, and a second later it dissolves. When I look, the sense is still there initially, until it’s seen again.

Is there someone / something using the voice of the body to speak?

I can’t see any evidence of an entity that exists apart from the body, speaking through it. There’s nothing to find in direct experience. Most of the time, speaking happens without knowing what’s about to be said. Sometimes, speech is verbalized in thought before it’s spoken out loud - but the thought happens spontaneously on its own, so same thing.

Is there someone moving the body? Make it walk, talk, eat, etc.?

No! I looked during walking in the forest, playing guitar, eating, typing, and it happens on its own. I compared that to other things the body does, like breathing and blinking, which are obviously automatic, and I can’t find a difference between these reflexes and the ‘intentional’ actions. And, looking at animals and people around me, everything was moving on its own, their bodies and mine.

What does the word 'my' refer to with the thought 'my body/voice'?

It’s so strange that it seems obvious to call it “my”, but I can’t find who that me is. My… Whose? I can’t find anyone here, in direct experience, that owns this body, controls the body, does anything. There’s just the body plus everything else in vision, all moving on their own.

One reason it feels like “my” body is that it has been a constant in my field of view throughout my whole life. I have never experienced the world without also seeing the body parts I can see when I look down.

I can also feel sensations in it: if this leg is bumped on a table, I feel pain. No one else can feel the pain in this body except me.

So that is why the label “my” makes more sense with this body than others… but I can’t find the owner!

[Vivien]

I can also feel sensations in it: if this leg is bumped on a table, I feel pain. No one else can feel the pain in this body except me.

Let's look if this is actually true in experience that there is a body + feelings / pains in it. Two things, body + what is felt (in it).

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on verbal or visual thoughts:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

V

[oversoul]

Hi Vivien, here is what I found sitting down with eyes closed:

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No - there are just sensations, buzzing, pounding, tingly, and these don’t say “body”. These sensations also don’t look like anything. So without observing an object called a body, it can’t be known how tall it is.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No, all there are are the physical sensations, which are not a solid object. So the sensations don’t weigh anything. Nor do they have a volume. I can’t tell where they begin and end; they “fill up” the whole field of experience.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No, no shape or form can be felt with the eyes closed. The sensations have no shape or form or location. They are all experienced in the same place, there is nothing saying that this one is higher up in the body or lower down, or in an extremity. They are all just here / everywhere.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

I experience any touching of clothing or chair as just one sensation, no boundary. The sensation of “pants on leg” is one sensation, just like tingly fingers is one sensation. There is nothing that says this is a leg and this is pants. Same with the feeling of “bum on chair”. Taking away those labels, it is just one sensation, no location or indication that it is two objects touching.

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

No, there are just the sensations. I don’t experience any kind of inside or outside, don’t experience a container or boundary.

What does the word/label 'body' ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

With eyes closed, the actual experience of the body is just constantly changing sensations such as buzzing and tingling, and whatever the body touches is experienced as one sensation. This is really clear as soon as I close my eyes (in the absence of thoughts or images about the body). This collection of sensations is the main thing experienced with eyes closed, and becomes the forefront of attention. However the label “body” does not seem to refer to these sensations alone. When I open my eyes, seeing the visual form of the body is what seems to correspond to the label.

You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Sorry did you mean for me to do this with eyes open or closed? Let me know and I shall continue the investigation. :)

With gratitude,
Natasha

[Vivien]

You can do it both closed and open eyes. Btw, you did a very nice investigation.

Now, let's go back to the idea that there is pain/discomfort in the body. Is that really true?

Is there pain + a body?
One thing being inside the other?

Is there really a body independent of that sensation labelled pain? Or vice versa?

Is that sensation actually contained?

V

[oversoul]

Thank you Vivien! Today I also looked in different situations with eyes open. With eyes open, at first it really seemed like the sensations were contained within the shape I call this body. It was like the sensations were mapped onto this shape, although I knew it was just an assumption. I would hold up my hand and it seemed like the buzzing of the hand was obviously inside that shape.

But then, totally dropping any concepts or thoughts, the idea of a body faded, and this coloured shape of hands etc. was just like any of the other shapes around me. And the sensations could not be said to be contained within the body shape, or even have anything to do with it. There are just sensations + I see shapes before me, including tree, chair, sock, body.

At first it seemed that this was only knowable as long as no thoughts were arising, but eventually saw that thoughts also are included in this experience of sensations, shapes, thoughts, sounds, etc. Like a painting that has visual borders of objects, but really it is all just paint, nothing separate. That one is still sinking in, because thoughts are distracting!, but I continue to look.

Now, let's go back to the idea that there is pain/discomfort in the body. Is that really true?

Is there pain + a body?
One thing being inside the other?

No, two separate things cannot be found - there is a sensation of pain, but the body is just a visual shape that blends into all others, I can’t see where it ends - thus it isn’t a separate thing that can contain the pain. There is no “pain in the body”.

Is there really a body independent of that sensation labelled pain? Or vice versa?

There is no independent body that can be found, no actual border of a thing called body. The sensation can be experienced independently of the body shape (when I close my eyes), but also has no boundaries as I saw yesterday - fills up the field of experience, definitely has no visual or felt borders, so is not an independent thing.

Is that sensation actually contained?

No, it is just being experienced here along with all the colourful shapes, sounds, other physical sensations, smells.

Yes without referencing thoughts, nothing can be said to be separate. Even the labels for the body refer to arbitrary areas like arm, hand, finger, knuckle, none of those are actual separate things, and neither is body.

But oh, does this mean this body is not flesh and blood with a conscious brain? That is not my direct experience, but I still somehow believe in a material world with real people and objects (even though the way we label and divide this world is arbitrary).

Thank you,
Natasha

[Vivien]

But oh, does this mean this body is not flesh and blood with a conscious brain? That is not my direct experience, but I still somehow believe in a material world with real people and objects (even though the way we label and divide this world is arbitrary).

In experience, there isn't. But it doesn't meant that we start to deny conventional reality. It's just a point of view. Looking from the point of view of everyday reality, there is a body with brain, but from direct experience, there isn't. We don't need to make conclusions. It's all about perspectives.

Now, as you noticed there is no separation between anything. Everything is like a painting, as you said. Now, is there a separate perceiver, knower, feeler, experiencer of this 'painting of experience"?

Is there anything standing apart having this experience, let it be colours, sensations, thoughts, pain?

Is there anything separate from experience knowing it?


V