<no subject>

[Totege]

I'm observing but in the seen there is only the seen,
In the smell only the smell, I can't find anything else.

What I don't understand Is that I feel like I am witnessing something, observing something. But I can also observe the observer, be aware that I am aware, so what I am aware of then ?
With only DE there is nothing I found of that.
But what of focusing attention on something, like when I focus on my foot the sensations from the foot are heightened to a great degree as if I made the foot big in my field of sensations.
But I have to admit that when I look I only sense in the form of sight, smell, seen, touch, feeling, sound, taste and thoughts. I can't find anything else.

Is there a seer? At which point seeing becomes the seer? Where are the outlines that differentiate the seer from seeing, and the colour (the seen) from seeing? Trace "back" seeing - where is seeing coming from? Is seeing the seen coming from the perspective of two windows (eyes) or is it like a windscreen view? Could you show from where you are looking at the screen, and what is there? Is there a "you" or "awareness" in that direction? What do you see?And back to awareness ... Are there awareness, being aware and aware-ed (object)? Is there anything else in being aware other than the "what is being aware of"? Is there awareness that is being aware? Also is there a difference between being aware and seeing (the verb) for example (without the lablelling)? LOOK the same way as you are looking at your socks and describe what is there in the raw (direct) experience!

I don't know where it's coming from, I cant find a seer or anything, it's just thoughts. There's the seen, then there is the content of the thoughts, the thinking that I'm aware, but it's just a thought, and I am not a thoughts, the seer is not a thought. Thoughts just are, in the same way that I can't choose which other sense arise.

It's still very confusing, I look and all I see is the sense informations. All can be reduced to this, is there anything separate from this ?
I'll sleep on this question..

Best,
Tom

[Totege]

Hello again, it seems my message was badly copied and only the second part was copied, as I didn't find a edit button here is there first part :

Good evening Rali,
What I was trying to say yesterday is that I want to keep the daily posting going, but sometimes I won't have time to properly practice and therefore give a good answer, that's why I'll sometimes just make a post to keep you updated but stating that I don't have yet answers to your questions.
Please forgive me, sometimes my communication is quite poor.

Anyway, today I found the time and place to try the DE exercice for some time, with coffee and other things

Can you please describe it with the 5 senses (the cup of coffee example)?

Sight : I see the cup
Smell : I faintly smell the coffee smell (my sense of smell deteriorated due to allergies over the years, allergies are mostly fixed but smell didn't return that much)
Feeling : I feel the texture of the cup
Tasting : I taste the bitter coffee
Hearing : I hear the sound of the water fountain for the cat
Toughts : Thoughts about the coffee and the seeing exercise related to the coffee (just thoughts)

Showering :
Sight : I see the wall, the water and the steam
Smell : there is a strong smell of soap
Feeling : I feel the water impacting my skin, the pressure of the wall on my back and the warmth of the water
Tasting : I still have a taste of coffee
Hearing : I hear the water smashing around, showering sounds
Toughts : Thoughts about the exercise of noticing in relation to showering

I did this for a few things, sometimes specific objects or emotions aren't really distinguished by all senses above but only a few. Such as when showering taste wasn't involved. But I think it's not relevant to the exercise

I could go on but it's the same all the time, I could sum it up to
Sight : the view at the moment or some kind of subtle or not so sublet lights and blackness pattern if eyes are closed
Smell : the current smell
Feeling : feelings both from inside or outside
Tasting : the current taste on my tongue
Hearing : whatever sound or absence of sound there is
Toughts : Thought (resulting from past and current conditions)

How exactly is it separate from experiencing? Are there awareness, experiencing, experienced? Is awareness some kind of lonely witness, a container for experiences, or any entity of a kind? LOOK! Describe how it is experienced in DE! Is awareness ever actually experienced or is it just an idea, an abstraction?Let’s examine this through seeing (one of the senses). In the seeing is there anything else but what is seen? Look at your screen right now. Is it outside of seeing somehow? Are seeing the screen (colour) and the screen (colour) two separate things? At which point the seeing becomes the colour (the screen)?

There is a thought of observing thus I feel like I'm observing but in the seen there is only the seen,etc...

Please Refer to message above

And sorry for inconvenience

[poppyseed]

Hi Tom

No problem at all :)

Sight : I see the cup
Smell : I faintly smell the coffee smell (my sense of smell deteriorated due to allergies over the years, allergies are mostly fixed but smell didn't return that much)
Feeling : I feel the texture of the cup
Tasting : I taste the bitter coffee
Hearing : I hear the sound of the water fountain for the cat
Toughts : Thoughts about the coffee and the seeing exercise related to the coffee (just thoughts)

Great looking! Please try to stick EXACTLY to the example of coffee cup format. The DE label for seeing is colour (seeing). We’re trying to form permanent habits here. It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.

How does it feel to see what actually is?

I could go on but it's the same all the time, I could sum it up to

Summing it is not helpful as what we are aiming at here is seeing normal everyday experience for what it is and spotting the beliefs around it. Summing it would be a theoretical conclusion (logic) where we are more interested in concentrating on what can be experienced directly. Clear?

What I don't understand Is that I feel like I am witnessing something, observing something. But I can also observe the observer, be aware that I am aware, so what I am aware of then ?
With only DE there is nothing I found of that.
But what of focusing attention on something, like when I focus on my foot the sensations from the foot are heightened to a great degree as if I made the foot big in my field of sensations.
But I have to admit that when I look I only sense in the form of sight, smell, seen, touch, feeling, sound, taste and thoughts. I can't find anything else.

Can that witness be isolated somehow? Can there be awareness existing on its own with nothing else there? Even in the most amazing meditation where there is silence, spaciousness and nothingness, there are still subtle sensations – “aliveness”, “heartbeat”, “breathing”. Even the experience of "empty space"/blackness is still an experience – a subtle one nonetheless but still experienceable. Where is this witness? Is it hiding? If it can’t be seen/described through the senses what makes him different from an abstraction/thought? Is it possible that subtle sensations are mistaken for a presence of something (e.g. witness)?

Let’s explore what focus is.
Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does. Focus on focusing, attention itself.

Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?

What moves attention? Can anything be found that moves attention, or does attention/focus move on its own?
LOOK carefully now! What is focus/attention? Is focus like a torch? Do “things” sit in the dark and wait to be illuminated? How is this known or is it assumed? How is focus different from labelling/thinking exactly? Can focus go on anything else but what is happening at the moment?? Can what is happening at the moment really be split into different things without the labels/thought content or is just experiencing?

Can you even differentiate between the senses and thinking without the labels that describe them as different experience? Close your eyes and allow a thought to appear. Continue to pay attention to thoughts as they appear for a few more seconds. With your eyes still closed, listen to whatever sound is present for several moments. Now, go back and forth between thoughts and the sound.
Does the sound appear in a different “place” to thoughts?
Can you find an actual line/wall/boundary that divides the thoughts and the sound? Or is the line a mental construct? If the line does not exist is there anything to be aware OF/focus on, or there is just THIS - indivisible seeing_hearing_tasting_smelling_feeling_thinking/labelling?

In Buddhism the term “suchness” or “thusness” (whatever is happening) is used, referring to the nature of reality free from conceptual elaborations and the subject–object distinction. I like the word “THIS” as it is more like a pointing word – pointing to whatever is directly experienced – rather than labelling the experience.

Love
Rali

[Totege]

Greetings Rali,

I don't have much time for a full answer today but I'll come back after the night.

[poppyseed]

Hi Tom

No worries! Thanks for letting me know!
Love
Rali

[Totege]

Good evening Rali,

I have been practicing my sights.

How does it feel to see what actually is?

It is quite calming.

we are more interested in concentrating on what can be experienced directly. Clear?

yes it's quite clear. Resting upon logic has always been my forte, here if i understand correctly it's doing me a disservice.

Can that witness be isolated somehow? Can there be awareness existing on its own with nothing else there?

Not to my knowledge,at least from what I'm seeing it's not possible to isolate it. If it's possible I can't do it willingly and it doesn't really happen.

I'm saying that but i have one or two case of experience that lead me to think that there is not a witness separate from experience. Because on some drastic occasions when my experience totally stopped I wasn't witnessing anything anymore. And if it wasn't from external indicator I had lost all sense of time space etc. It was once during meditating I don't remember when I was gone but I remember coming back as if I had blacked out. and it wasn't sleep because it was the subtlest breath at the top of the nose that I noticed upon coming back, it was like a point, then a small line then little by little the sensations came back. From my point of view, there was a moment where I wasn't aware of anything. Second time was during general anaesthesia to remove my wisdom teeth.

That's anecdotal but your comment made me think of that.

Where is this witness? Is it hiding? If it can’t be seen/described through the senses what makes him different from an abstraction/thought? Is it possible that subtle sensations are mistaken for a presence of something (e.g. witness)?

Maybe in the head, afterall most of the time I feel like i'm experiencing and sensing with the head as a center. But there is nothing that could separate the sense of self from sensations or toughts. At least I haven't found anything like that.

Let’s explore what focus is.
Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does. Focus on focusing, attention itself.

Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?

It's a tricky question, I feel like there is some measure of control upon the act of focusing. But if there is something very loud or specific arising out of the current context then the chosen focus is lost and move to the new thing.

Maybe it can be trained, I don't know. Some people seems better able than other.

What moves attention? Can anything be found that moves attention, or does attention/focus move on its own?
LOOK carefully now!

let's hypothesize that In fact I don't move attention, then maybe I do something that'll temporarily shift focus onto the target object. That's how it feels, I need to continually focus on the breath it's not a moving onto the breath more like pushing the focus on breath button as much as I can before something comes up that is stronger than that it'll shift.

What is focus/attention? Is focus like a torch? Do “things” sit in the dark and wait to be illuminated? How is this known or is it assumed?

It's more like a zoom on a picture, the picture being the whole of your current sensations, you can focus in into some specific sensation and make them bigger or lessen the others, or you can focus out and try to sense as broadly as possible.

How is focus different from labelling/thinking exactly?

When i focus it's just the raw sensation that is being looked at with attention, it's before the labelling.

Can focus go on anything else but what is happening at the moment?? Can what is happening at the moment really be split into different things without the labels/thought content or is just experiencing?

There is nothing else hapenning that what is hapenning at the moment ? I don't understand the question, I can focus on the act of remembering or imagining but it's just a toughtv so it's hapenning at the moment. I don't think it's possible to focus on anything else than what is currently there because in reality there is no past and no future just toughts about past and toughts about future, so yes you can focus on past things or future things, but tha'll just be toughts. Or am I wrong ?

Can what is happening at the moment really be split into different things without the labels/thought content or is just experiencing?

I don't think so, the split is another labeling, maybe close to raw sensate reality than some very convoluted labeling but it's nonetheless a labelling, there is no split in what is hapenning at the moment. not between senses at least, the split come after the sensation is parsed and it's a reflexive action.


i'll have to admit that was many questions in one go, it's good that I had 2 days to ponder and exercise those. But still it's quite confusing, Especially focus, If there is no witness to be found, if there is just the current experience. Then why does it feel like I can focus on some specific part of the sensation and what guide the sensations to arise and pass. This is very confusing


I wrote and wrote and in the end It's quite the long answer.
I guess i'll sleep on my questions,


Have a good day,
Tom

[poppyseed]

Hi Tom

You report is a big mix of stories (not DE) and some DE. Remember :
“Seems like”, “feels like”, “sort of” = thought content
In DE whatever is here can easily be seen and described. Like seeing the colour of your socks. There is nothing seems like – it’s either here or not.

I can see that there is a lot of confusion here, which is normal – that inquiry challenges all acquired beliefs – how “world” has been seen until now :)

It's more like a zoom on a picture, the picture being the whole of your current sensations, you can focus in into some specific sensation and make them bigger or lessen the others, or you can focus out and try to sense as broadly as possible.

How exactly are you doing this? Are all experiences sitting around and you are choosing which ones to experience? How is this known or is it assumed?
Do you determine in some way the strength (the volume) of the experience? Can you chose not to feel the sharp pain of a hammer hitting your finger right now? Can you chose not to think for 1h? Can you train focus to go only to pleasant thoughts and skip unpleasant? OR that is an assumption coming from the belief that you are in control of focus? If you are in control can you describe how exactly you are doing this? Are you the thinker of the thought: “let’s focus on breath”?

Let’s examine thinking. Maybe it will bring more clarity…

For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

Love
Rali

[Totege]

Greeting,
Apology for the late reply, calm moment for seeing and contemplating your questions were few and far these last days. Also this is disturbing me to a great degree.

How exactly are you doing this? Are all experiences sitting around and you are choosing which ones to experience? How is this known or is it assumed?
Do you determine in some way the strength (the volume) of the experience? Can you chose not to feel the sharp pain of a hammer hitting your finger right now? Can you chose not to think for 1h? Can you train focus to go only to pleasant thoughts and skip unpleasant? OR that is an assumption coming from the belief that you are in control of focus? If you are in control can you describe how exactly you are doing this? Are you the thinker of the thought: “let’s focus on breath”?

Well when you put it like that, yes I can't do all that. In fact, now I see that there is a thought, let's focus on breath, then there is the sensation of breath intensified. There is nothing pointing to the fact that I am the thinker of this thought.
But what then, I am now watching the day unfold I feel like I am a spectator to my life, it's quite frightening, If I don't have any I in the matter, I am just what, a thousand thoughts and sensations creating a false sense of self, the illusion of it ? There is something DEEPLY frightening in seeing the world like that, sometimes it's good but it's also freeing. Do "I" or whatever is really there have any say or anything ? This is a strong case of determinism. If I eat an apple today, could it have been avoided, is everything predetermined?

When I'm waiting for a bus and I look calmly at the world it's quite freeing to have this view that I am not the thinker "I" am just a thought, and most of my thoughts come to create a strange perspective to the self to sensations that are not that by default.

But this is also very frightening, I have nothing to hold into it's like losing every sense of self, quite literally but only to find nothing else than the fact that the world is happening and you have no say, at all levels?!

In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Where are they coming from and going to? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way?

They come from before, a car passed and a thought rose, another thought rose from this one, reminiscing about something the thought about the car brought up, so on and so on. It's all cause and consequences.
nothing rise from nothing, I was quite aware of this fact but always still thinking that I was the thinker, separate from the thoughts, creating them.
Now I'm not so sure, I look and there is nothing, nothing beside thoughts and sensations, what if I don't exist and this is just thoughts creating other thoughts maintaining the charade ? What was the first thing that created this situation ?
I hope I'm wrong because for the first time in my life I feel very destabilized as if I'm losing all the structure of the self but without having anything on the other side... Yet ? Or maybe forever, how to know?

Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

I can't do any of that, that's just thoughts coming and saying let's pause before I finish this thoughts. Or counting thoughts and I just can't really control any of this. Well not exactly. There was still a thoughts of counting thoughts so I'm not totally powerless. Maybe I don't exist as an entity but as a string of thoughts, just not by itself as an individual but also dependent of everything else ?
I can't help but come back to this doubt of if there is no me then what is the determining factor, if you put me in a specific situation why is the thought of doing one outcome arising instead of another ?

Yes maybe it's not perfectly structured. But if you don't see a fish you have a lot less thoughts about fish ? So environment and prior conditions matter ? I know it's not DE, but the questions you ask leave me very destabilized because I can't see any self nowhere and thats quite frightening. Maybe it's just the fact that I feel like If there is no self then what is making things be ? Making thought?

Once again, so much questions, yes I am not in control of any focus, there is just a focusing thought saying I'm going to look at my feet, there is no order and I don't control them, there is no me in my thoughts or anywhere as a separate entity from experience, sensations, thoughts or anything. That much is clear, and whenever life slow down enough so that the thoughts of this can arise there is indeed the thoughts that "I" see this. But there is also a bunch of questions lights related to this

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

From the point of view of the "me" no they are not all true. But ultimately they are just thoughts ? How can they be true or false, can a taste be true ?

I guess I'm sleeping ? Because until quite recently there was always a centering of the thoughts on the experience relative to what I was, I guess I'm just a bundle of sensations when I'm not thinking about what I am ?

[poppyseed]

Hi Tom
It’s good to have you back :)

But what then, I am now watching the day unfold I feel like I am a spectator to my life, it's quite frightening, If I don't have any I in the matter, I am just what, a thousand thoughts and sensations creating a false sense of self, the illusion of it ? There is something DEEPLY frightening in seeing the world like that, sometimes it's good but it's also freeing. Do "I" or whatever is really there have any say or anything ? This is a strong case of determinism. If I eat an apple today, could it have been avoided, is everything predetermined?

What a big fat story! Let’s examine it…
First, it’s not like the “I” was ever in control, and now it’s not. It’s always been this way. “Things” were sorting themselves quite alright until now, they will continue to do that.
Second, thoughts can say whatever they want (as you are not the thinker), would that change DE? Can thoughts do anything or just come up with meaning/story about what is happening – be it a horror story (of losing control) or a peaceful story of perfect harmony?

Control is one of the main human wants—wanting to be in charge, powerful, and right. Wanting to have control over actions, thoughts, and feelings is the driving force that moves actions in a particular way. Wanting control is the flip side of lacking control. Wanting is a sign that something is incomplete, or missing. Here is another angle. Wanting control is just that—wanting. There is a story about trying to be in control and not succeeding and the feelings of guilt, shame, and fear that arise with the failure. It is interesting to watch how all this works, how thoughts of lacking and wanting create a ripple of sensations, and how you can’t control any of it. Sensations arise; take a look at them. Which one of them is the sensation of “being in or out of control”? Can you pinpoint it? What is that sensation without the label in DE?
Third, examine this fear. Fear and resistance serve to protect the imaginary self from harm. Fear is an emotion:
Emotion = sensation + thought
Are you the thinker of the fearful thought or it just appears?
Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘fear’ and ‘resistance’. Can you find anyone/anything IN the sensation itself, or BEHIND the sensation that is fearful? Now look at the thought that comes with it. Can you find anyone/anything in the WORD ‘fear’ that is fearful?
Once you are at just raw sensation without the thoughts, allow the sensation all the space it needs without pushing it aside or judging it. Sensations come and then go. But, while you are “there” look at what the thought is trying to protect. Is there anything that needs protecting?

Now I'm not so sure, I look and there is nothing, nothing beside thoughts and sensations, what if I don't exist and this is just thoughts creating other thoughts maintaining the charade ? What was the first thing that created this situation ?

So what if you don’t? How would that be different from before the inquiry? Didn’t you come here to see exactly this?
We’ll look at “cause and effect” later and see their validity too…

I can't do any of that, that's just thoughts coming and saying let's pause before I finish this thoughts. Or counting thoughts and I just can't really control any of this. Well not exactly. There was still a thoughts of counting thoughts so I'm not totally powerless. Maybe I don't exist as an entity but as a string of thoughts, just not by itself as an individual but also dependent of everything else ?

Good observation! Because, sorry to break it to you, but you are not the author of "the thoughts of counting thoughts" too :)

I can't help but come back to this doubt of if there is no me then what is the determining factor, if you put me in a specific situation why is the thought of doing one outcome arising instead of another ?

Is there decisive factor, or just plain cause and effect (conditioning) happening dating back to the beginning (of what?)? Thoughts are self-organising, they don’t need a thinker to appear :). They stick to each other like matching puzzle pieces (stories about stories). Anything new that comes along and does not match the pattern will be attempted to get rid of as it costs the system “energy” to rebuild from scratch (confirmation bias). That is how “fearful” and “resisting” thoughts form – they protect the status quo/the core of beliefs (see discussion above)


Stay with this fear and explore it. We can continue when you are ready, so please let me know when and if you want to continue

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Tom

Is everything OK? Are you still interested in doing the inquiry?

Love
Rali

[Totege]

Hello Rali,

I Apologize for the lack of an answer, I took the last days to get some distance from DE, let the tumultuous waters of the mind calm down.

I am well and if you accept I would like to continue what we are doing here. Maybe we could slow just a bit ? I feel like it's a bit fast to be honest.

First, it’s not like the “I” was ever in control, and now it’s not. It’s always been this way. “Things” were sorting themselves quite alright until now, they will continue to do that.
Second, thoughts can say whatever they want (as you are not the thinker), would that change DE? Can thoughts do anything or just come up with meaning/story about what is happening – be it a horror story (of losing control) or a peaceful story of perfect harmony?

To answer this, yes the fact that I know I am not the thinker is quite useful to take some distance from these thoughts. There was no real "I" in control of anything separate from my direct experience. But it was quite frightening to contemplate the void of just being a mirage of the mind composed of just many sensations creating a false sense of self. Or at least that's how it seems to be ?

Which one of them is the sensation of “being in or out of control”? Can you pinpoint it? What is that sensation without the label in DE?

It is located in the guts and in the chest, it is not pleasant to the mind but without any label in DE it's just another sensation, similar to fear.

So what if you don’t? How would that be different from before the inquiry? Didn’t you come here to see exactly this?

Well I guess nothing change aside from the perspective im operating from. Looking back "I" was deluded, operating from a perspective far from direct experience, all this misunderstanding was creating a lot of pain i guess ? For example when there is the sensation of fear "I" don't really have it, it's in the body, it is a specific physiological experience, but watching it from afar it is kind of freed, I identify much less with the sensation because even though there are still thought, knowing what those thought are not a whole real entity they lost power over many mechanism and reactions.

I still get caught up in life, and after some time there is a thought coming up, bringing light to the fact that in fact there is this distancing possible, that immediately bring this sensation of distance from thoughts and remind "me" of the fact that I once again got caught up in the flow of things but that ultimately many of the things that I care about are devoid of meaning when looked at from DE. Does it make sense ? I'm trying to convey the sense of relief and equanimity brought by the distance from the previous thoughts patterns. They've got corrupted by DE.

They can't run long before a thought come up bringing the experience into focus, just the experience, washing away the labels and identification chain they have over sensation and themselves.

In the past I had this sense of focus, bringing attention to raw sensations, creating peace and calm. I'd bring this In moments like those, one of the boons of meditation. Now it is changed because there is the begining of an understanding of why "focusing" on DE is calming and bring distance, peace and equanimity. Maybe meditation is mostly stumbling upon DE without the pointing, stumbling upon it by calming down everything else.

Is there decisive factor, or just plain cause and effect (conditioning) happening dating back to the beginning (of what?)?

I guess this is THE question I have had in thoughts since I started realizing that it was just thoughts and other sensations. I don't have a definite answer. It's a bit like searching for the thinker, I don't see anything else than cause and effect, maybe I ought to look differently of maybe I'm looking for something that do not exist ?

Anyway, I guess that's long enough already.

I wish you a good day,
Best, Tom

[Totege]

I'm coming back because I wanted to say thank you, I am really grateful for your guidance. I value your questions, and direct pointing instructions, they are like a clear ray of sunlight dispersing the damp fog.

I really appreciate the generosity you have, doing this on a forum for some stranger on the internet.
Thank you

[poppyseed]

Hi Tom
I’m really happy to have you back! Thank you for your perseverance!

I am well and if you accept I would like to continue what we are doing here. Maybe we could slow just a bit ? I feel like it's a bit fast to be honest.

Well, you can take your time answering the questions, giving the inquiry your own pace, provided that you keep doing the daily activities breakdown – a few each day (please share one or two with your answers written EXACTLY as the cup of coffee example)

I really appreciate the generosity you have, doing this on a forum for some stranger on the internet.

It’s really my pleasure! :)

They can't run long before a thought come up bringing the experience into focus, just the experience, washing away the labels and identification chain they have over sensation and themselves.

Yup! That’s what this inquiry is about – changing perceptions. DE, however, is still the same - same, same but different :)

I guess this is THE question I have had in thoughts since I started realizing that it was just thoughts and other sensations. I don't have a definite answer. It's a bit like searching for the thinker, I don't see anything else than cause and effect, maybe I ought to look differently of maybe I'm looking for something that do not exist ?

Look until you are certain, that is the only way. However, it's not only that it’s seen there is no thinker, doer, etc. It’s not that there is nothing there – there is experience/THIS. Just because things are not how thoughts describe them, it does not mean there is a void. Emptiness does not mean nothingness, it means subject and objects are empty of inherent existence – what is here just looks like something else (the illusion of subjects and objects) but after a thorough look the illusion is seen.

Focus on the feeling of am-ness/being, aliveness.
Can you tell if there is a being or just being?
Is life happening to a being or as being?
Is that “aliveness” any kind of object or subject? Is it even a human?
Is it what you've taken as "you"?

It is located in the guts and in the chest, it is not pleasant to the mind but without any label in DE it's just another sensation, similar to fear

Ok let’s examine what “body” is in DE

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.

Love
Rali

[Totege]

Hello,

I read your question when you posted them but I'll take some more time before answering them, in the meantime I'll provide a few DE templates

Sight : I just see my legs, and the tramway car interior, just colors moving
Smell : smell is faint, subdued
Feeling : I feel the contact because of sitting, just pressure
Tasting : I taste bread, just taste
Hearing : I hear the tramway, just sound
Toughts : I have thought about the tramway and writing, just thoughts

I am not sure I am doing this right, when doing the exercise "I" focus on the raw sensations, but when. Transcribing here in text due to the fact that I'm using language I'm putting words and applying concept that don't fit, in fact I could've written

Sight : colors, movement, simply colors
Smell: faint sensations, just smells
Feeling : pressure due to gravity, warmth of recent shower, just feelingw
Taste : faint butter acidic taste, just taste
Hearing : tramway moving, just sound
Thoughts : thoughts about writing, just thoughts

Is it like just describing then stating that this is just that, just sense input, just colors and movements. In a sense bringing back perceptions of sensations closer to reality, further from labels and de-identifying from them ?

Sorry I just want to be sure I get the format and understanding right

Good Sunday,
Tom

[poppyseed]

Hi Tom

I read your question when you posted them but I'll take some more time before answering them

That’s fine

Sight : I just see my legs, and the tramway car interior, just colors moving
Smell : smell is faint, subdued
Feeling : I feel the contact because of sitting, just pressure
Tasting : I taste bread, just taste
Hearing : I hear the tramway, just sound
Toughts : I have thought about the tramway and writing, just thoughts

No, this is not what I had in mind. This is the example that I want you to follow:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)
So in your case:

In the tramway car:
Seeing my legs, simply = colour (seeing)
Smelling something faint, simply = smell (smelling)
Felling the seat under my bum, simply = sensation (feeling)
Eating my sandwich, simply = sensations (feeling) + taste (tasting)
Hearing the tram moving, simply = sound (hearing)
Seeing the city through the windows, simply = colour (seeing)
Hearing people talking around me, simply = sound (hearing)
Thinking about work, simply = thought (thinking)
Feeling the warm spring air every time the doors open, simply = sensation (feeling)
Thinking about writing, simply = thought (thinking)
Seeing my legs moving, simply = colour (seeing) + sensation (feeling)

Is that clear?? That is following the apple example, where we saw there is no apple, but just colour, taste, smell, sensation (when touching), and a thought about an apple. On the one side of the equasion, you have how you would normally describe 'something", on the other you have the DE description (using only DE labels). Does it make more sense? Please provide a couple every time, written exactly in this format!

Love
Rali