Joy of Experiencing

[warissem]

Good morning

You are very clear about thoughts but there is still a point to explore.

I'm a bit caught in seeing this completely. If I see a negative thought and change it to a positive thought it seems to me that I am choosing that shift to a positive thought.

1) Write down what you said without using "I" and "me" and let me know about sensations arising or whatever.
2) Look at what is going on : a negative thought is seen, right? Then a thought about shifting to a positive thought is seen, isn't the case?

Do you see clearly that a thought CANNOT BE known before it arises? Can we predict a thought before it arises, before it is noticed?
Do you see clearly that there is no you (me) in charge of thoughts, producing them or choosing them? That there is only the knowing (being aware of them). Anyway, if there is a me, which kind of me it is? Can you describe it?

Light (knowing, being aware) is like the sun. Sometimes the sky is clear with no clouds (thoughts). Sometimes the sky is cloudy. It does not mean that the sun disappeared. Light and clarity are here. There is knowing of thoughts. "Being lost in thoughts" means that the sun is lost in the clouds. Is it the case? When thoughts are overwhelming, just take a step back and stay as the light, the knowing (awareness). There is no need to "translate" negative thoughts to positive thoughts. The sun does not care about light clouds and heavy clouds, the sun is at a distance.

The thought is not known before it arises yet is known as it arises from my choice to shift to a positive thought. What am I missing here? I want to see this.

The same comments as above.

I hope that all what is said here will help you to clarify from doubt. Anyway, I am with you till you see clearly and certainty that there is no separate self in any shape or form.

Best wishes

[Primrose9]

Good morning. Your post did not come up in the normal thread that we have been using. I only found it because I went exploring the site and clicked on your name and and then curiously clicked on current posts or what ever it said and then saw all your active posts to the ones you are guiding and noticed a new response in my thread. I then went back to the normal thread and it still wasn't there. Not sure why but now I have learned to check under your name as well. In any case I found it and can respond.

1) Write down what you said without using "I" and "me" and let me know about sensations arising or whatever.
2) Look at what is going on : a negative thought is seen, right? Then a thought about shifting to a positive thought is seen, isn't the case?

1) A bit caught in seeing this completely. If a negative thought is seen and changes to a positive thought it seems the choosing is shifting to a positive thought.
2) Without the "I" and "me" at first it feels a bit unsteadying like there is nothing to stand on. Then there is a space like floating feeling where I am just watching all the appearing and shifting and choosing happening. I don't even really know if there is choosing anymore. It's just all moving mysteriously in whatever way it goes. It's bringing up tears and crying. It feels both freeing and scary to see that there is no me choosing, probably more scary because the feeling driving the tears is grief and loss of control of my life, but in actuality I know this is the way it has always been. I feel a resistance to fully seeing this and a holding on to the familiar and beloved "me". I will sit with this and watch it away from the clouds from the beautiful perspective of the sun which you so beautiful described, and as I write this the shift has happened and all is calm again. Calm watching the sadness. This is a shift that will need to integrate.

Do you see clearly that a thought CANNOT BE known before it arises? Can we predict a thought before it arises, before it is noticed?
Do you see clearly that there is no you (me) in charge of thoughts, producing them or choosing them? That there is only the knowing (being aware of them). Anyway, if there is a me, which kind of me it is? Can you describe it?

Yes. This is seen now and it will be integrating into my awareness along with being with the sadness and tears it seems to bring up.
I can not find or describe a me. They are only thoughts about a me I believed was there. I'm not surprised but a bit overwhelmed at how much sadness this brings up. I've known this truth for many years and thought I saw it as well but I have now seen a much deeper seeing.

Light (knowing, being aware) is like the sun. Sometimes the sky is clear with no clouds (thoughts). Sometimes the sky is cloudy. It does not mean that the sun disappeared. Light and clarity are here. There is knowing of thoughts. "Being lost in thoughts" means that the sun is lost in the clouds. Is it the case? When thoughts are overwhelming, just take a step back and stay as the light, the knowing (awareness). There is no need to "translate" negative thoughts to positive thoughts. The sun does not care about light clouds and heavy clouds, the sun is at a distance.

Thank you. I have also known this and watched from here off and on for many years and it is so helpful to hear right now in this new level of seeing.

Question: I started to attempt to answer your questions without an "I" or "me" in the sentences but it is very challenging to write that way. So, I am looking at what do we mean when we say "I" or "me" or "you" or "your", etc. There are no other words to use in the limits of word communication when referring to each other/the seeming self in the body. When I now say "I" in a sentence it feels like I am referring to consciousness yet it will appear to others that I am referring to the body/mind. I'd like to explore this more.

[Primrose9]

PS: I figured out that the latest posts are now on page two. I hadn’t seen there was a page two when I posted that I could find your latest post.

[Primrose9]

PS: I figured out that the latest posts are now on page two. I hadn’t seen there was a page two when I posted that I couldn’t find your latest post.

[warissem]

Good morning

Good morning. Your post did not come up in the normal thread that we have been using. I only found it because I went exploring the site and clicked on your name and and then curiously clicked on current posts or what ever it said and then saw all your active posts to the ones you are guiding and noticed a new response in my thread. I then went back to the normal thread and it still wasn't there. Not sure why but now I have learned to check under your name as well. In any case I found it and can respond.

Yes, sometimes the system is bugging.

1) A bit caught in seeing this completely. If a negative thought is seen and changes to a positive thought it seems the choosing is shifting to a positive thought.

Thought n°1 : a negative thought
Thought n°2 : I have to think a positive thought
As you can notice "I" is a thought pretending to think.
Thought n°3 : a positive thought
Is there some entity, Rosie, choosing the thoughts ?

2) Without the "I" and "me" at first it feels a bit unsteadying like there is nothing to stand on. Then there is a space like floating feeling where I am just watching all the appearing and shifting and choosing happening. I don't even really know if there is choosing anymore. It's just all moving mysteriously in whatever way it goes. It's bringing up tears and crying. It feels both freeing and scary to see that there is no me choosing, probably more scary because the feeling driving the tears is grief and loss of control of my life, but in actuality I know this is the way it has always been. I feel a resistance to fully seeing this and a holding on to the familiar and beloved "me". I will sit with this and watch it away from the clouds from the beautiful perspective of the sun which you so beautiful described, and as I write this the shift has happened and all is calm again. Calm watching the sadness. This is a shift that will need to integrate.

Wonderful. I suggest you to go for a walk in a park or in nature and see the flow of life with no need of a separate self.

Do you see clearly that a thought CANNOT BE known before it arises? Can we predict a thought before it arises, before it is noticed?
Do you see clearly that there is no you (me) in charge of thoughts, producing them or choosing them? That there is only the knowing (being aware of them). Anyway, if there is a me, which kind of me it is? Can you describe it?

Yes. This is seen now and it will be integrating into my awareness along with being with the sadness and tears it seems to bring up.

It is not your awareness, it is only awareness (being aware).

I can not find or describe a me. They are only thoughts about a me I believed was there. I'm not surprised but a bit overwhelmed at how much sadness this brings up. I've known this truth for many years and thought I saw it as well but I have now seen a much deeper seeing.

It was always the case, something obvious which is overlooked.

Thank you. I have also known this and watched from here off and on for many years and it is so helpful to hear right now in this new level of seeing.

Great.

Question: I started to attempt to answer your questions without an "I" or "me" in the sentences but it is very challenging to write that way. So, I am looking at what do we mean when we say "I" or "me" or "you" or "your", etc. There are no other words to use in the limits of word communication when referring to each other/the seeming self in the body. When I now say "I" in a sentence it feels like I am referring to consciousness yet it will appear to others that I am referring to the body/mind. I'd like to explore this more.

"I", "me", ... are useful concepts to communicate. There is no worry to use them and don't worry about others.

Is there still seeking? If so, what is missing?
Feel free to expose any lasting doubt here.

I wish you the best

[Primrose9]

Is there some entity, Rosie, choosing the thoughts ?

I've been watching and exploring this all day. Now that I've had the small opening to see that there is no entity choosing thoughts it has been new and interesting to look at it when I remember. I've also noticed that I'm not so concerned about whether I am remembering "being aware"/Isness like before. It's a subtle shift.

I suggest you to go for a walk in a park or in nature and see the flow of life with no need of a separate self.

My day was pretty full today. I will do this tomorrow. Thanks. I'm not feeling the sadness today. There is just a blank space when I look for the separate self. It's nothing earth shattering just a subtle weird feeling hard to describe. It's actually the Isness that I love being in, yet it's missing the "I" that I thought I was that was just another thought. So all that is left is a flow of whatever is happening in life. I don't feel much different, it's just a subtle shift noticed when I'm aware of it. Does it become more pronounced than this?

It is not your awareness, it is only awareness (being aware).

Thank you. This is helpful.

Is there still seeking? If so, what is missing?
Feel free to expose any lasting doubt here.

So many others that I have listened to clearly describe knowing a clear awakening. Of course each awakening is unique and I know it is not helpful to compare. In my case I can tell I have seen that there is no separate self yet I'm questioning if this is awakening. It feels like a subtle shift and when I am focused on it, like now, there is great blissful stillness, or when I share my experience with my husband we sit in the stillness together and things fade and look different and all is in a oneness, yet in my active day when the focus isn't there it is not so apparent or remembered.
Today I was at an outdoor May event at my grand daughter's school and had to walk quite a bit in the heat and my knee that has issues was stiff and i was tired and weak from the heat and then very tired the rest of the day. It was all fine and I was not upset about by any of it, just went with the flow of things, but it all felt pretty much the same as before.

I also have a question about the "I am". Is that also identifying?
And I have been meaning to ask you your gender since I am not familiar with Algerian names.

Thank you,
With Love,
Rosie

[warissem]

Hi Rosie

I am glad to read your post. It is beautiful. There is no more to it.

You know for sure that there is no you, no separate self in any shape or form. Being aware is happening when there is clarity (blue sky) AND when there is confusion (cloudy sky). This shift is the beginning of an exploration. Now, you see from a new perspective.

In this forum, the dialog ends when it is seen for sure that there is no separate self in any shape or form. There are some questions given to make sure that the "gate" is crashed. After having answered to these questions you will be invited to facebook LU groups where you can encounter guides and other gatelessgate crashers. You can have access to forums dedicated in deepening the investigation, ask questions, discuss about any topic in relation with this staff.

Let me know if you are ready to the final questions.

Best for you

[Primrose9]

There is no more to it.

You know for sure that there is no you, no separate self in any shape or form. Being aware is happening when there is clarity (blue sky) AND when there is confusion (cloudy sky). This shift is the beginning of an exploration. Now, you see from a new perspective.

Okay. Thanks. When settled and watching the seeing is from a new perspective. It does feel like the Beginning of an exploration. I almost want to tell you that the seeing is not really complete so our conversation doesn't end so soon. The apparent separate self keeps trying to convince me that I'm making all of this up. But the gig is up. There is no convincing when I stop to look. Who is the one that is looking and doesn't find? I'm glad to read that there is more support with the continuing exploration. It feels a bit anti climatic and I have heard that it can be this way. In the second fetter it is said that if you are still reactive then there is still identity there. I do noticed that the little reactions in life are still there like before, like getting annoyed at something my husband says or something not going in a way that works for the separate self. It is more apparently seen though. So I guess seeing thru self and still having the habit of identity lingering do not necessarily happen at once. It is simply a new opening and perspective that can be accessed when the sky is clear. Is this correct? If so then I guess I am ready for the final questions.
Thank you!!

[warissem]

Good evening

Okay. Thanks. When settled and watching the seeing is from a new perspective. It does feel like the Beginning of an exploration. I almost want to tell you that the seeing is not really complete so our conversation doesn't end so soon.

Yes, we continue the exploration here.

The apparent separate self keeps trying to convince me that I'm making all of this up.

Here, you are far away from direct experience : do you see that all what is said above is a train of thoughts?
Just check it for yourself :
Is there a separate self outside of thoughts?
Can a thought try to convince another thought labeled "me"?

But the gig is up. There is no convincing when I stop to look.

Seeing through the illusion of a separate self is not about conviction, it is not a new belief. It is seen in plain view like seeing that there is no tiger under the table.

Who is the one that is looking and doesn't find?

It is a great pointer. Look and see the answer for yourself.

I'm glad to read that there is more support with the continuing exploration. It feels a bit anti climatic and I have heard that it can be this way.

It feels that the seeking is still happening, what are expecting more than what is here now?

In the second fetter it is said that if you are still reactive then there is still identity there. I do noticed that the little reactions in life are still there like before, like getting annoyed at something my husband says or something not going in a way that works for the separate self. It is more apparently seen though. So I guess seeing thru self and still having the habit of identity lingering do not necessarily happen at once. It is simply a new opening and perspective that can be accessed when the sky is clear. Is this correct?

I don't work with the fetters but the reactivity is in the 4th and 5th fetters. Continuing to behave like before is normal, this is due to tendencies, conditioning and old habits. I invite you to watch this video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w

If so then I guess I am ready for the final questions.

I feel that there is no enthusiasm in your answer. We will continue to explore more here till there is certainty about the absence of a separate self.

Here is an investigation about the body :

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Best for you

[Primrose9]

Happy Saturday!

The apparent separate self keeps trying to convince me that I'm making all of this up.

Here, you are far away from direct experience : do you see that all what is said above is a train of thoughts?
Just check it for yourself :
Is there a separate self outside of thoughts?
Can a thought try to convince another thought labeled "me"?

Yes. I see this now. When I check it I see that the seeming separate self has snuck in there pretending to be the one looking. It is important for me to distinguish this. It's a point of confusion that I need to see and let go of. When looking nothing is there and that is enough. What was happening before after seeing nothing was the mind saying, "What happened????" and continuing to look to try to find something. It was such a so subtle that I did not see it was the ego train of thoughts. It was just feeling like more looking but I see now there was doubt and confusion in it.

But the gig is up. There is no convincing when I stop to look.

Seeing through the illusion of a separate self is not about conviction, it is not a new belief. It is seen in plain view like seeing that there is no tiger under the table.

As described above, when looking nothing is there and I need to just be with that, without the surprised, are you sure that nothing is there?, element.

Who is the one that is looking and doesn't find?

It is a great pointer. Look and see the answer for yourself.

When looking for the one that is looking nothing is there, only spaciousness, peace, oneness, bliss.

It feels that the seeking is still happening, what are expecting more than what is here now?
Continuing to behave like before is normal, this is due to tendencies, conditioning and old habits. I invite you to watch this video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w

This video was so helpful in describing that this is just the beginning, the feeling of falling, turbulence, flip flopping between clarity and doubt, expansion and contraction, letting go of the control of the mind. I guess I was expecting it all to be clear right away all the time.

I feel that there is no enthusiasm in your answer. We will continue to explore more here till there is certainty about the absence of a separate self.

I am happy to explore more. I love doing the body investigation. Thank you. I have done some of it with Rupert Spira and also with Pernille. When doing it yesterday and today the actual experience of the body is a pure sensation of warmth and tingling that has no boundaries, no shape, form, volume, height, inside or outside. The word/label "body" feels like it is referring to a means of or medium in which to experience the senses.

Separate from this exercise which included "no body awareness" as well is that every time I sit still for anything I find that I am so absorbed by stillness and just want to sit there and be in it. It moves into the forefront of awareness more easily than before. This is still there even though I have been having mild stomach upset today.

I am so appreciative of your guidance!
With Love,
Rosie

[warissem]

Good evening

You are doing a great job here.

My best comments to your post is what you said :

Separate from this exercise which included "no body awareness" as well is that every time I sit still for anything I find that I am so absorbed by stillness and just want to sit there and be in it. It moves into the forefront of awareness more easily than before. This is still there even though I have been having mild stomach upset today.

There is no you to be absorbed by stillness, there is only stillness, being aware. The pain belongs to the body.

Is there a separation between seeing and the knowing (being aware) of it?
Is there a distance between hearing and the knowing of it?
Is there a distance between thinking and the knowing of it?

Do you see clearly that different words are used to point to the same "thing" : being aware= seeing = hearing=smelling=tasting=feeling sensations or textures = thinking.

I invite you to continue to practice the investigation of the body, it is deepening the realization.

Best wishes

[Primrose9]

There is no you to be absorbed by stillness, there is only stillness, being aware.

Thank you. Wow! This is beautiful, potent and very helpful in seeing thru where "self" keeps showing up disguised.

The pain belongs to the body.

When the pain in the body is felt as the knowing of the sensation of it, as stated below, then there is no separation between the sensation and the knowing of it even though it is unpleasant. So if "the pain belongs to the body" and the body is the knowing of sensation wouldn't that also be stillness being aware? Can you clarify what you mean by "the pain belongs to the body'?

Is there a separation between seeing and the knowing (being aware) of it?
Is there a distance between hearing and the knowing of it?
Is there a distance between thinking and the knowing of it?

Looking at no separation between, seeing, hearing, thinking, etc and the knowing of it is very helpful as well. Thank you!

Do you see clearly that different words are used to point to the same "thing" : being aware= seeing = hearing=smelling=tasting=feeling sensations or textures = thinking.

Another beauty! No I did not see that. It is a powerfully helpful new perspective.

I invite you to continue to practice the investigation of the body, it is deepening the realization.

Yes. Will continue the deepening of this.

Much gratitude,
Rosie

[warissem]

Good morning

Wonderful, there is no more to it. Just light shining, an aware light, neutral, ordinary.

When the pain in the body is felt as the knowing of the sensation of it, as stated below, then there is no separation between the sensation and the knowing of it even though it is unpleasant.

Yes, you get the point : as you can see, all "happenings" as or in the body are sensations, tinglings, vibrations if we don't put labels on them. "Pain" is a word : in english it points to ache, in french it means bread. The words, concepts, labels are just "adding on" on what is here now.

So if "the pain belongs to the body" and the body is the knowing of sensation wouldn't that also be stillness being aware? Can you clarify what you mean by "the pain belongs to the body'?

Awareness (being aware) suffers no pain but there is knowing of the sensation called "pain" or "pleasure". And yes being aware = stillness = silence = the whole experience. There is no separation between the experience and the knowing of it : is it seen clearly?

I invite you to go to a walk in a park or in nature and just be knowingly aware. Observe the flow of life in trees, people around, animals, birds singing, whatever. Describe what is going on.

Best for you

[Primrose9]

Good Evening,

Wonderful, there is no more to it. Just light shining, an aware light, neutral, ordinary.

Yes. This is settling in more and more.

There is no separation between the experience and the knowing of it : is it seen clearly?

Yes. This is seen clearly.

I invite you to go to a walk in a park or in nature and just be knowingly aware. Observe the flow of life in trees, people around, animals, birds singing, whatever. Describe what is going on.

Not feeling well today. There is mild nausea, indigestion and stomach discomfort, tiredness and weakness. "I" "the body" may have whatever my son had when he was here last week. Hoping it will pass soon. The stillness is very apparent though and when sitting in it and allowing it to deepen and be the focus the awareness of the discomfort goes in the background or is even hard to locate. There is some non acceptance of the discomfort that I am watching and allowing myself to feel in to.

I did go out for a beautiful drive and a short walk in nature today. The description is that everything just is. It moves and flows endlessly by itself. The mountains just sit there in stillness and contentment. The lake just flows and glistens and shines reflecting the sun in the stillness of contented motion. The cows just graze and lie in the grass with calmness and contentment. The sky, clouds, bushes, trees, all that is growing are all just there being life, existing in contentment. The stillness that is aware of itself in or as me is the same stillness being observed yet there is no separation. All one stillness endlessly in motion.

Thanks you,
Rosie

[warissem]

Hi Rosie

Not feeling well today. There is mild nausea, indigestion and stomach discomfort, tiredness and weakness. "I" "the body" may have whatever my son had when he was here last week. Hoping it will pass soon.

I wish you a prompt recovery.

The stillness is very apparent though and when sitting in it and allowing it to deepen and be the focus the awareness of the discomfort goes in the background or is even hard to locate.

This ordinary intimacy is stillness, being aware. There is no you to sit in it, this intimacy is it. Is there you as an authority allowing things to deepen ? Is there a you in any shape or form?

There is some non acceptance of the discomfort that I am watching and allowing myself to feel in to.

See that "non acceptance" is a thoughts, split apart the label "discomfort" from the sensations labeled discomfort and look at sensations only. Are these sensations different from other sensations, look at them with curiosity.

I did go out for a beautiful drive and a short walk in nature today. The description is that everything just is. It moves and flows endlessly by itself. The mountains just sit there in stillness and contentment. The lake just flows and glistens and shines reflecting the sun in the stillness of contented motion. The cows just graze and lie in the grass with calmness and contentment. The sky, clouds, bushes, trees, all that is growing are all just there being life, existing in contentment. The stillness that is aware of itself in or as me is the same stillness being observed yet there is no separation. All one stillness endlessly in motion.

Glad to read this poetry : like painting a landscape.

Is there still seeking?
Is it clear without a doubt that there is no you, no Rosie, no separate self in any shape or form?

Waiting for your insights

Best for you