Bring it on

[Windaway]

Exactly,

We are use to think, live, act and relate from the point of view of a me in thought. That's fine in everyday life and for practical purpose.

But this separate entity is no where to be found.

Now that this is clear to you.
Tell me who is responsible for any action ?

Do you have anything spicifique resistance, doubt or question that you want to explore?

David

[PatrickM]

Hi David!

Now that this is clear to you.

Tell me who is responsible for any action ?

No one, and I guess not the "me" that usually takes responsibility for actions, but I have to admit there is still resistance to accepting that.

Do you have anything spicifique resistance, doubt or question that you want to explore?

The Direct Experience exercises that point back to no self have been helpful, but that conclusion that there is no separate entity to be found still feels intellectual and momentary, and the rest of the day the separate entity is alive and well.

Maybe my above answer is a clue to that...there is still resistance to the idea that there is no doer or no one responsible for actions. I can come to that conclusion on paper, but the day to day felt experience is that there is a doer.

Cheers.

[Windaway]

Hello Patrick,

Feedback

No one, and I guess not the "me" usually takes responsibility for actions, but I have to admit there is still resistance to accepting that.

We are not here to guess or to believe but to check in our direct experience if that is true or not.
So there is resistance in you about this responsibility.
Tell me more, is this resistance somatic (in sensation) or in thoughts? both?

The Direct Experience exercises that point back to no self have been helpful, but that conclusion that there is no separate entity to be found still feels intellectual and momentary, and the rest of the day the separate entity is alive and well.

You have looked in your Direct Experience and you didn't find this individual. Isn't it?
This exploration wasn't intellectual. It is a fact. If you still doubt look again now and tell me if you can find it.
It MUST be a fact for you if it is not tell me, please.

It can be believed to be intellectual because your "everyday" life is the same and nothing has changed. That is because you may hold expectations and beliefs about how your "everyday life" will be different when you realize this. Do you have some?

"the separate entity is alive and well" I hope that Patrick is alive and healthy. What is wrong with having a alive and well-being separate entity? Do you want to experience a dying of cancer and suffering one?

Remember this self NEVER actually existed so when you realize its absence nothing changes, just like when you stop believing in Santa Claus nothing changes. There still is a Christmas you still receive presents from your parents, the Christmas tree still in the living room. Nothing changed for you except the belief in the existence of Santa. That's all. When you see a Santa Claus on the street you don't start asking yourself if your realization was only intellectual. Because YOU KNOW FOR A FACT that Santa Claus is not real, and no matter how much proof of his existence is presented to you it will not produce doubt.

Maybe my above answer is a clue to that...there is still resistance to the idea that there is no doer or no one responsible for actions. I can come to that conclusion on paper, but the day-to-day experience is that there is a doer.

The sense of doership is a natural function of the body/mind. This sense allows us to function in society and survive. But we don't have to believe it when it appears. You experience a thought that tells you: "you have chosen" - " you did this" - etc... but they are only thought. Always search for this doer in your direct Experience, here and now- Because this is the only place you have to look.

Exploration
Direct Experience - Labelling Daily Activities

The purpose of this exercise is to make sure we that when we talk about Direct Experience (DE). We are talking about the same thing you and me.
For you to know anything it must appear in your experience. You know the world, object, and people “out there” through your experience. What we are interested at this moment is to be clear about what this experience looks like in your Direct Experience.
Without interring into too much theory here. We can say that is your experience is made of 6 senses:

* Seeing

* Hearing

* Smelling

* Tasting

* Sensation
(sensation of inside: proprioception, kinesthetic, interoception)
(sensation of outside object/people or touching)

* Thinking

For example:
when you look at an object all you see is color.
When you think about your family or a pink elephant all there in Direct Experience is thought.
When you listen, a bird singing all there is in Direct Experience is sound.
When
Etc….
Is that clear?

If that is clear try to go thought your day labeling daily activities simply with what is actually here; colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.
Watching by the widow = colors
Hearing the traffic = hearing
Drinking coffee = tasting

[PatrickM]

Hi David, thanks much for your reply.

Tell me more, is this resistance somatic (in sensation) or in thoughts? both?

I think its both but the somatic part is subtle, like a faint aversion or fear.

It can be believed to be intellectual because your "everyday" life is the same and nothing has changed. That is because you may hold expectations and beliefs about how your "everyday life" will be different when you realize this. Do you have some?

Yes! I think I do have some expectations that things will be different without the false perspective or without identification with thought.

The purpose of this exercise is to make sure we that when we talk about Direct Experience (DE). We are talking about the same thing you and me.

Okay great, direct experience exercises are my favorite thing so far🙂

Feeling pain in neck = feeling sensation
Neighbors dog barking = hearing
Runny nose = feeling sensation
Annoyed by runny nose = thinking
Looking outside to see if its raining = seeing color/image
Deciding what to do this afternoon = thinking
Slight pain from sitting like this for so long = feeling sensation
Quiet sound from humidifier = hearing
Doubt about answering David's questions about no self = thinking
Checking puddle to see if raindrops are more or less = seeing image/color
Clouds in sky = seeing image/color
Wondering what neighbor is doing = thinking
Noticing dust on computer keyboard = seeing color/image
Cold toes = feeling sensation
Annoyed when recalling conflict with family member = thinking
Drinking tea = tasting and feeling sensation
Comparing mood today to mood yesterday = thinking
Looking at lamp = seeing color/image
Hearing fridge turn on = hearing

Cheers.

[Windaway]

Hello Patrick,

Tell me more, is this resistance somatic (in sensation) or in thoughts? both?

I think it's both but the somatic part is subtle, like a faint aversion or fear.

That is a great sensation to explore. Take a moment in your day to explore this fear in a somatic way.
Check where it is in the body.
Check what kind of texture it has.
Check in what direction it moves.
a good exploration is to try to find the edge of it.
Be sensitive and take time to feel this resistance.

Yes! I think I do have some expectations that things will be different without the false perspective or identification with thought.

Tell me more about that.
How your life will be different?
How will you be different?
How will your experience be different?

Okay, great, direct experience exercises are my favorite thing so far🙂

That is great because your direct experience is all you have got.
This is not an exercise it is what you experience most of the time.
Can you see this?
Stay in direct experience as much as you can during the day. Don't change your schedule to do this. On the contrary in your "everyday life" focus more on direct experience than anything else.
Tell me you it went.

[PatrickM]

Hi David!

That is great because your direct experience is all you have got.
This is not an exercise it is what you experience most of the time.
Can you see this?

Yes that makes sense. But it is so fast and habitual in daily life that it does feel like an exercise when you slow it down and look like this.

Stay in direct experience as much as you can during the day. Don't change your schedule to do this. On the contrary in your "everyday life" focus more on direct experience than anything else.
Tell me you it went.

It went well. It feels like I was uber mindful all day.

Tell me more about that.
How your life will be different?
How will you be different?
How will your experience be different?

I could use some examples from the past couple days to talk about these expectations that things will be different without the false sense of self.

Yesterday I was noticing how the excitement of a new project was starting to wane and I felt a pang of suffering. If I were to look close I would find thoughts like "Oh another great project that you didn't follow through on" or "You did it again, why would you do that?" along with some fear and doubt. Maybe it is a sequence of identifiable sensations, but in the moment it is an instantaneous felt sense of suffering as if everything gets instantly intertwined and it becomes about "me" or "my worth". Without that "me" or "mine" then that situation would play out quite differently.

Similarly, yesterday afternoon I was a bit bored and lonely. The thought was "What am I going to do today?" but those words only convey part of it. There was a felt sense of suffering or painbody that was instantly there with that thought. The "I" in that thought just seems to be loaded with history, memory, expectations, etc. and is just there, automatically, injecting itself into the situation. Without that reference point of "I" then the experience would be quite different.

You have looked in your Direct Experience and you didn't find this individual. Isn't it?
This exploration wasn't intellectual. It is a fact. If you still doubt look again now and tell me if you can find it.
It MUST be a fact for you if it is not tell me, please.

Correct, when I look in direct experience this "I" or entity or separate sense of self does not exist. But I don't feel that solves the matter because the felt sense of "I" arises instantaneously in situations like the ones described above and in dozens or hundreds of others throughout the day. Without that habit/tendency/behavior for the "I" to just be there automatically then I do think life would be different and that's probably where my expectations come from.

Cheers.

[Windaway]

Hello Patrick,

Very interesting. Thanks for your authenticity.

Correct, when I look in direct experience this "I" or entity or separate sense of self does not exist. But I don't feel that solves the matter because the felt sense of "I" arises instantaneously in situations like the ones described above and in dozens or hundreds of others throughout the day. Without that habit/tendency/behavior for the "I" to just be there automatically then I do think life would be different and that's probably where my expectations come from.

First, this "sense of I" is not going away.
If there is a body/mind there will be a sense of I.
If there is an experience there will be some sense of being the witness of it.

If some people talk about "there is no me" I agree.
If they say "I never experience a sense of I", I will doubt them greatly mostly because that is not my experience at all.
I know there is no David but I still experience thoughts, sensations, and perceptions that strongly suggest the reality of this individual called David. This suggestion doesn't fool me anymore, that's all.

When I was I kid I was convinced that seeing an old man with a white bear and dressing in red was proof of the existence of Santa. Now I just see an old man with a white bear and dressing in red AND the thought goes "This is Santa".
You must understand that what you see doesn't change. It is the way you see that change.

Suppose you expect to get rid of any sense of I. I am not the right guy because I have a sense of I. I do not even believe that it is possible to get rid completely and at EVERY LEVEL of the sense of I.
So, if this is your purpose I am not the guide for you.
Let me know if that is what you want and we will try to find someone that can meet your expectations. (if this guide even exists)

Correct, when I look in direct experience this "I" or entity or separate sense of self does not exist. But I don't feel that solves the matter because the felt sense of "I" arises instantaneously in situations like the ones described above and in dozens or hundreds of others throughout the day. Without that habit/tendency/behavior for the "I" to just be there automatically then I do think life would be different and that's probably where my expectations come from.

Yes, when a sensation arises there is a thought involved with the narrative of an individual. So what?
In your example, I don't see that the "sense of "I is the problem. It is the suffering/pain the problem isn't it?

Do you want to get rid of the "sense of I" to get rid of the suffering?
It is the suffering that causes the "sense of individuality" to arise as a defense to avoid the painful sensation. When sensation is too much to be felt we take refuge in the mind(thought) to not feel it.

Tell me more about this suffering. In your direct experience, what is it made of?
Where is this "me" that suffers?

[PatrickM]

Hi David.

First, this "sense of I" is not going away.

I am equating the sense of "I" with the separate self so it's confusing for me to hear you say that.

It's starting to sound like the goal of this guidance is just to acknowledge that the separate self is an imagination, whereas I am assuming that we are trying to not only see it as imagination but to uproot and expose its hold on experience.

Am I mistaken in that thinking?

Yes, when a sensation arises there is a thought involved with the narrative of an individual. So what?
In your example, I don't see that the "sense of "I is the problem. It is the suffering/pain the problem isn't it?

Are you saying that your approach is to see the suffering in that moment and know that it is just sensation and not "me"?

And just so I understand where you are coming from....what is the desired outcome of this guidance for you?

Cheers.

[Windaway]

I am equating the sense of "I" with the separate self so it's confusing for me to hear you say that.

That is very interesting. Thank you for this clarification.

I like to make differences between those ideas of “separate self” and “sense of I”. For practical purposes is easier to explore each one differently. Even though they both have the same root.
(But that does not mean that it is the right way.)

The separate self is a thought. It is a purely mental construction. “Patrick” and “David” are concepts in the mind.

The sense of "I" is a little bit more subtle because it involves perception and sensation.
What happens is that there is a sensation (or a perception) that is interpreted by the brain as “I” or “me”. If there is a functional brain, there will be this “sense of I” being produced by it. That is why I said this “sense of I” is not going away.

What can disappear is the belief that comes after that:
There is a sense of I, therefore, there is an actual I.
There is a sense of me,therefore something is witnessing it, and I am that something.

This belief can be exposed and seen as false exploring sensation and perception.

How this resonate with you?

Am I mistaken in that thinking?

Yes, you are mistaken.
I am trying to point to you, in your direct experience, where you still believe in the reality of a separate I.

Are you saying that your approach is to see the suffering in that moment and know that it is just sensation and not "me"?

No, I am not saying to “just know that it is a sensation”. One aspect of my approach is to feel the sensation that arises in the moment fully without label.

If it is clear to you that the "me" is an imagination there is no suffering possible.
There is simply a sensation.
There is simply experience unfolding.

And just so I understand where you are coming from....

What do mean? What are you not saying with the “…” ?
You can be straightforward with me. I will not be offended.

what is the desired outcome of this guidance for you?

I do not think about the outcome because it is beyond my control and knowledge.
I answer questions as it feels right in the moment.

What I can say about this guidance is that I am deepening my understanding through our conversation.
I hope you do too.

[PatrickM]

Hi David thanks for your reply.

I like to make differences between those ideas of “separate self” and “sense of I”. For practical purposes is easier to explore each one differently. Even though they both have the same root.

(But that does not mean that it is the right way.)

The separate self is a thought. It is a purely mental construction. “Patrick” and “David” are concepts in the mind.
The sense of "I" is a little bit more subtle because it involves perception and sensation.
What happens is that there is a sensation (or a perception) that is interpreted by the brain as “I” or “me”. If there is a functional brain, there will be this “sense of I” being produced by it. That is why I said this “sense of I” is not going away.

Ahh okay now it is starting to make sense. We are talking about the same thing but just using different terminology. Any phrase with 'I' in it automatically make me think of the thought based separate self, but to you 'the sense of I' is presence or that simple feeling of existence that exists prior to the 'I' thought entering.

That's fine and we can use that terminology going forward if you want, and that makes it clear why you would say the 'sense of I' is not going away.

What can disappear is the belief that comes after that:

There is a sense of I, therefore, there is an actual I.
There is a sense of me,therefore something is witnessing it, and I am that something.

This belief can be exposed and seen as false exploring sensation and perception.

How this resonate with you?

Yes, exactly! This is the false sense of self that I want to explore, or to use your words a belief that can be seen as false.

What do mean? What are you not saying with the “…” ?
You can be straightforward with me. I will not be offended.

Yes, now it's clear that we do have a bit of a language obstacle to contend with. To say "just so I understand where you are coming from...." is a phrase of speech in the States and just another way of saying "what do you mean?" or "what angle are approaching this topic from?".

What I can say about this guidance is that I am deepening my understanding through our conversation.
I hope you do too.

Yes it has been helpful so far and now officially looking forward to the next step.

Cheers.

[Windaway]

Hello Patrick,

Ahh okay now it is starting to make sense. We are talking about the same thing but just using different terminology. Any phrase with 'I' in it automatically make me think of the thought based separate self, but to you 'the sense of I' is presence or that simple feeling of existence that exists prior to the 'I' thought entering.

That's fine and we can use that terminology going forward if you want, and that makes it clear why you would say the 'sense of I' is not going away.

I am glad we could find a common understanding.

Yes, exactly! This is the false sense of self that I want to explore, or to use your words a belief that can be seen as false.

Let’s do it.

Exploration
Find “me” in the body

Find a comfortable place to sit or lie.
Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit.

Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.

Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where Patrick is located.
Touch the exact location of Patrick.

Answer these questions:

Were you able to find and feel Patrick in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified Patrick (If any).

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

[PatrickM]

Hi David, thanks for this exercise.

Were you able to find and feel Patrick in a direct way like the other parts of your body?

No.

What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?

When you said "Now point your index finger to where Patrick is located" I stuck my hand out and pointed back in my general direction. So there was an impulse to point back to my body.

But then when you said "Touch the exact location of Patrick" nothing really came up. There wasn't a specific location that made sense.

What sensations did you feel in your body that identified Patrick (If any).

Then I just tested and touched a few spots on the body. None of the individual spots or sensations seem to be me, but at the same time there was a general sense of touching "my body".

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

And then I just sat with eyes closed and checked out all the body sensations that were present. Toes cold, ache in neck, fingers tingling, temp on arm.....all of those felt like impersonal sensations, or just body sensations.

But the thinking sensations in center of head feel more personal, more like "me". And the felt body sense of being or existing (or maybe 'sense of I' using your words) also feels more like "me" and feels centered in the chest/heart area.

Cheers.

[Windaway]

Hello Patrick,

But the thinking sensations in center of head feel more personal, more like "me". And the felt body sense of being or existing (or maybe 'sense of I' using your words) also feels more like "me" and feels centered in the chest/heart area.

How do you know that thinking happens in the center of the head?
What proof do you have that it happens in the center of the head?
What is your actual experience of head made of?


Explore the sensation that "feel like me" or have the "sense of I" :
Can you find this me or this I?

If you cannot find this me or I. Tell me:
What is present, in your Direct Experience, when you say "feel like me" and "sense of I" ?

[PatrickM]

Hi David.

How do you know that thinking happens in the center of the head?
What proof do you have that it happens in the center of the head?

I don't! But that's where it feels like it is happening.

What is your actual experience of head made of?

Actual experience of head seems to be made of sensation.

Explore the sensation that "feel like me" or have the "sense of I" :
Can you find this me or this I?

No.

If you cannot find this me or I. Tell me:
What is present, in your Direct Experience, when you say "feel like me" and "sense of I" ?

Similar to thoughts feeling as if they are localized in the head, that felt sense of me or 'sense of I' seems to be centered in my chest area.

If I go into that or see what is present in that 'sense of I' it seems to primarily be sensation. There are individual sensations like heart beating and abdomen breathing, but they all seem to combine or result in a felt sense of being or existing.

Accompanied by some type of assumption or thought or habit that "I" am existing or "I" am being. But all that seems to happen in a microsecond. The flavor of "me" just seems to be there instantly without any doing.

Cheers.

[Windaway]

Hello Patrick,

If I go into that or see what is present in that 'sense of I' it seems to primarily be a sensation. There are individual sensations like heart beating and abdomen breathing, but they all seem to combine or result in a felt sense of being or existing.

Please be sure to answer each question separately.

What is an individual sensation?

What sensations are non-individual?

Are the individual sensations appearing in your experience and non-individual sensations appearing outside?


What is the distance between you and an individual sensations?

What is the distance between you and a non-individual sensations?

Where is your experience of sensation appearing?

Why are you adding a BUT here?:
but they all seem to combine or result in a felt sense of being or existing
Remember that the felt sense of being is natural. As we talk a few messages back.
What is wrong with the sense of being and existing?
Why the BUT?