Ready to crash the gate. Very grateful for any guidance.

[oversoul]

Hi Vivien, thank you for the encouragement. :)

What is it that goes into zoned out mode?

Is there something / someone moving in and out of states?

What does the zoned out mode (or any state) is happening TO?

Each time I looked, directly after the zoning out happened, I found only emptiness, no person moving in and out. The contraction and expansion was just the same movement of experience happening. Never seen that before.. Thus it also reduced any thoughts of judgment like “Oh no I zoned out again”; because it did not feel like so much of a problem, it was just a different movement of experience.

When there is contraction, what does it happening TO?
What is at the receiver end of contractions?

I can’t find anything receiving it, same as non-contracted moments. Armed with this question throughout the day, I was able to observe during these contracted moments, which loosened their grip.

And what realizes / recognizes what happens?

No one; it is just a feeling of softening and opening, that happens after the fact. My mind creates a story that I have been zoned out today, based on selective memories.

Just keep noticing the fear whenever shows up.

What is it that the fear trying to protect?
What is it that needs protection?
And protection from what?

The fear came up sometimes today and I saw it was a feeling of vulnerability, rawness, openness. The thing that feels vulnerable seems to be the body, there is a slight impulse to tense up, brace against the world.

When I was young, I began to use thoughts as a way to escape traumatic situations, to avoid emotional overwhelm in the body. Without any possibility of putting up a barrier (running away into thoughts or contracting into my body), this feeling of vulnerability shows up - protecting the body.

Love, Natasha

[Vivien]

The fear came up sometimes today and I saw it was a feeling of vulnerability, rawness, openness. The thing that feels vulnerable seems to be the body, there is a slight impulse to tense up, brace against the world.

When I was young, I began to use thoughts as a way to escape traumatic situations, to avoid emotional overwhelm in the body. Without any possibility of putting up a barrier (running away into thoughts or contracting into my body), this feeling of vulnerability shows up - protecting the body.

Well yes, this is the conditioned personality.

When there is any form of suffering (or any form of discontent), it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.

The personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through (at least at the beginning). All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. But it is the beginning of the falling away of conditionings, which can last until the end of the organism.

Undoing of conditionings and contractions of the body is a different kind of inquiry that needs to be done after the self is seen through for embodying the seeing.

Every time an emotional wound is touched, triggered, the self is believed again. So lots of further inquiry is needed for this.

Is there anything that is not super clear so far?
Is there anything that you would like to look at?

How do you feel about what you've seen so far?
Is there something missing?

Vivien

[oversoul]

Well yes, this is the conditioned personality.

Undoing of conditionings and contractions of the body is a different kind of inquiry that needs to be done after the self is seen through for embodying the seeing.

Hi Vivien, thanks so much for taking the time to explain this. I understand now this stuff will arise but “the self is an added narrative”. And yes I have experienced that emotional work got so much easier the less I identified with thoughts or emotions, it has already made a big difference.

Every time an emotional wound is touched, triggered, the self is believed again. So lots of further inquiry is needed for this.

I experience this for sure. Is it possible that for some, the trauma is too dense for the illusion of self to ever fully be seen through? I know you have mentioned in interviews about your own past, so you can understand.

A few years ago I put away non-duality teachings because I felt I was just a lost cause.

Is there anything that is not super clear so far?
Is there anything that you would like to look at?

How do you feel about what you've seen so far?
Is there something missing?

At the moment everything so far feels clear intellectually and also recognised experientially as I look again and again, however the recognitions are at the moment gentle, faint, easily covered up until the next time I look.

But today I felt a difference, instead of feeling like “I snap out of thought”, it felt like it just happens by itself, a revealing of what is always here. That was a first!

I have to look continually and it seems to build momentum. Is it just about looking over and over, until it is really strongly seen?

This past week with you has been a totally new level of looking and recognising I have never experienced before!

Much gratitude :)
Natasha

[Vivien]

I experience this for sure. Is it possible that for some, the trauma is too dense for the illusion of self to ever fully be seen through? I know you have mentioned in interviews about your own past, so you can understand.

What do you mean by fully? That the self is never ever believed again? It's never ever clouded again?

That's the embodiment part. Seeing is not about not being clouded again. It's about being able to seeing it repeatedly, without fail, whenever you look, and sometimes spontaneously.

Notice what expectations do you have about 'fully seeing'?
What that is like?
How would you recognize it?

I have to look continually and it seems to build momentum. Is it just about looking over and over, until it is really strongly seen?

Again, what is the expectation here? Strongly seen? What does strongly mean to you?

V

[oversoul]

What do you mean by fully? That the self is never ever believed again? It's never ever clouded again?

Yes, this has revealed a big expectation I’ve had - that there would be one moment where it was permanent, done.

Thus, most times when there is clouding, another self-identified thought appears right afterwards creating a story of how “I am not there yet.”

That's the embodiment part. Seeing is not about not being clouded again. It's about being able to seeing it repeatedly, without fail, whenever you look, and sometimes spontaneously.

Thank you, this clarifies a lot.

Notice what expectations do you have about 'fully seeing'?
What that is like?
How would you recognize it?

Strongly seen? What does strongly mean to you?

All the teachings I consumed over the years created many expectations. I heard of people who had a moment where something clicked suddenly; they were shocked, or started laughing, couldn’t believe they missed it before. In addition, I’ve heard people saying at that moment they knew without a doubt it was permanent, as if what was seen could never be unseen.

Since that has definitely not happened yet, I conclude I am a long way off! So sometimes I feel I’m not there, I’m a lost cause.

But other times, that falls away - like today there have been many moments where there was just what’s here now, contentment, sanity, and any thought about getting anywhere was totally laughable, no need or possibility for anything other than this. This has happened way more often since we started our conversation. (Then thought comes in and says, I want it to stay this way forever…)

[Vivien]

Just notice any thought that comments on this. "I am not there yet", "this is not it", "I want to stay this forever", "It's not fully seen", "I am a lost cause", etc.

Be very attentive noticing all these thoughts. When you catch one, inquire:

What is saying this?
Who/what is talking?
Where is the I on whose behalf this thought is talking?
Where is the one that is not there yet?
Where is the one that hasn't seen this fully?
Where is the one that wants to stay this forever?
Where is the one that is a lost cause?

Not just simply look for an I, but for a specific I, the one who is failing, the one who is not getting it.

Thoughts are talking on behalf of this me. Where is that one?

V

[oversoul]

Be very attentive noticing all these thoughts. When you catch one, inquire:

What is saying this?
Who/what is talking?
Where is the I on whose behalf this thought is talking?
Where is the one that is not there yet?
Where is the one that hasn't seen this fully?
Where is the one that wants to stay this forever?
Where is the one that is a lost cause?

Thank you Vivien, each time I looked, the ‘self’ thinking those thoughts disappeared as soon as the thought was finished. Often the self is believed during the thought, and then seen directly afterwards. May I take another day with these questions? Really want to attend to these different ones that you listed, the specific I of each thought, and then write more tomorrow, as these are the most compelling thoughts. Looking for the specific I, has made it very obvious that there is no continuity of a self there. As it is a different one each time.

[Vivien]

Of course, you don't have to rush, just be thorough :)

[oversoul]

What is saying this?
Who/what is talking?
Where is the I on whose behalf this thought is talking?
Where is the one that is not there yet?
Where is the one that hasn't seen this fully?
Where is the one that wants to stay this forever?
Where is the one that is a lost cause?

Not just simply look for an I, but for a specific I, the one who is failing, the one who is not getting it.

Thoughts are talking on behalf of this me. Where is that one?

-

Hi Vivien! It has been so good to attend to these thoughts specifically, the ones about “not being there yet”, or the opposite “I’m getting there”. Those are the sneakiest. With the posing of the questions “where is the one who…?”, I see there’s no no one behind the thoughts, no substance. They are very sneaky, coming in the back door, “I’ve got it! I lost it!” These questions are perfect for these I thoughts that used to feel like a continuous, real narrative.

Many images arise too, so these are non-verbal but are mind movies of a future where “I’ve gotten it”, based on expectations as I mentioned to you before. I think those are even trickier because they are silent, there’s no “I” speaking in an obvious manner, and also the imaginations are like a filter over my actual view. Those are the most addictive thoughts, as I have been so used to always looking forward to a better future. The past couple of days I have really seen how often these images arise of getting somewhere better, whether it’s liberation or a better job. Such a relief when that dissolves into what is just here, just reality is the ultimate joy.

Are there any inquiries that would particularly tackle those images of a better future?

Thank you so much!
Natasha

[Vivien]

Well, better future, for who? :)

And what future?

What is future in experience?

What is the difference of a 'general' thought and a future thought or image?

Are you sure that there is no narrative (story/words) accompanying those mental movies (of future)?

If you say there isn't, then how do you know that it's about the future?

Don't you need thought (words) to know that it's the future?

V

[oversoul]

What is future in experience?

What is the difference of a 'general' thought and a future thought or image?

Are you sure that there is no narrative (story/words) accompanying those mental movies (of future)?

Oh! - yes, there are. I looked over and over, and could not see any narrative, but finally I saw a few ways in which they are not just silent images as I described them before.

Firstly I saw that these “future” movies mostly consist of me saying something (often to someone else), lots of “I, I, I”. Just like the normal “I” stories in my head, the only difference is with an image attached and looking at myself from the third person. But take away the image and it’s the same thing. Can’t believe I said “there is no I speaking in an obvious manner” (face palm).

Secondly, often an image is preceded by a verbalised thought like, “I want to…” Then the image appears. So that’s a narrative.

Another thing attached to these images is sometimes an emotion, if it’s a pleasing fantasy of something desirable (like a new job), there will be a feeling around my heart.

Breaking it down like this makes them much less compelling. I will keep looking at this as they come in many different flavours, so there could be more things I haven’t noticed. Can’t believe I was blind to all of those extra elements!

Well, better future, for who? :)

I would like to spend more time with this one, as I was so stumped with the other question looking for a narrative that I focused on that. :) The immediate answer is “no one” but I want to be thorough as you said!

Love, Natasha

[Vivien]

Yes, please do so, and also investigate these two separately, one-by-one.... so with these we are looking what 'future' actually is.

What is future in experience?

What is the difference of a 'general' thought and a future thought or image?

[oversoul]

Investigate these two separately, one-by-one.... so with these we are looking what 'future' actually is.

What is future in experience?

I had many different types of “future” thoughts arise during the day, and this is what it seems future is in experience:

A mental image / movie (always).
Often accompanied by a verbalised thought such as “I hope I can go on holiday next year.”
Often within the movie, more verbal thoughts as I imagine myself saying things.
And very often, a strong emotion — such as an exciting leap around my heart, if it is a pleasant desire, or a sinking feeling if it is an imagined fear.

Mental image + verbal thought + emotion.

What is the difference of a 'general' thought and a future thought or image?

This one quite stumped me, I looked at as many different types of thoughts as I could all day. Thoughts about the past, or present fantasies, or practical planning, vs these future ones.

They were all images and/or verbal thoughts, sometimes accompanied by emotions. In experience, I can’t find a difference between them. Hmm am I missing something?

The future is as real as the past which is as real as present fantasies. Which is to say, not real, as these are only images, nothing actually happening now.

Future thoughts just have a strong pull when they are accompanied by a pleasant emotion, and a narrative belief that “I can get this thing / I am close to getting this thing.”

Well, better future, for who? :)

I saw that there is a character contained in these thoughts, as the me who will get the better future! But when I look, what’s here now is just a body sitting here - and there is no correlation with that, and this character in the thought. That character disappears when the thought disappears, she is not here.

Those were my findings yesterday - this morning the character is more compelling as I awoke with a new health symptom and there is a lot of projected future. But I have been always coming back to what’s actually here, and every time the contrast is seen, it is a real relief.

Love Natasha

[Vivien]

Nice inquiry ;)

They were all images and/or verbal thoughts, sometimes accompanied by emotions. In experience, I can’t find a difference between them. Hmm am I missing something?

Maybe you don't miss anything :)

Isn't the future is a PRESENT thought + present images + present sensations / emotions?

Isn't that seeming future happening NOW as the current thoughts, images and feelings?

Now, look at a memory.

Isn't the memory thought is also NOW?

I saw that there is a character contained in these thoughts, as the me who will get the better future! But when I look, what’s here now is just a body sitting here - and there is no correlation with that, and this character in the thought. That character disappears when the thought disappears, she is not here.

OK, so a character shows up in those images + in the verbal narrative... right?

On whose behalf of those images + narrative is happening?

Where is the me/I right here now that all those future scenarios could happen TO?

V

[oversoul]

Isn't the future is a PRESENT thought + present images + present sensations / emotions?

Isn't that seeming future happening NOW as the current thoughts, images and feelings?

Yes! As I did this inquiry today, arising “future” movies were seen as exactly just present images, thoughts, emotions - in fact I could watch a lot of them as they occurred now, as just a faint image over what is actually here (instead of being totally consuming and giving the impression of leaving the now). They have always been occurring now, but it just was more obvious when I looked with intent.

Now, look at a memory.

Isn't the memory thought is also NOW?

Yes same thing, the same elements make up memories. They are visual snapshots of things I have experienced (except not really how I experienced it, because I am viewed in the third person, which is not how it actually happened).

It seems there’s some kind of categorisation aside from it, that this image is future, this image is memory, this image is present fantasy. In reality they’re just images that don’t belong to any time.

For example if an image arises of me on my favourite beach, is that a memory of the last time I was there; or a vision of a future hope; or just fantasising? Could be any, depending on the mental narrative that day. None of them are actual past or future.

OK, so a character shows up in those images + in the verbal narrative... right?

Yes, viewed as if watching a movie character in the third person, speaking and doing things. Looks like my body and speaks with my voice.

On whose behalf of those images + narrative is happening?

There’s no one apart from this character, this character exists only in thought. The thoughts seem to arise just spontaneously, not on behalf of anyone that exists in real life.

Where is the me/I right here now that all those future scenarios could happen TO?

All I find here is this body and what’s happening around it. This body is what is called Natasha, but there is nothing to say about it, it’s just here, silent, existing, along with the trees and sun and objects on the balcony. No correlation with the character in these imagined scenarios. The character is total fantasy, as much as anything else I could envision. Just a thought. So I can’t find anyone that these scenarios could happen to, other than perhaps this body? But without those character thoughts, this body isn’t a me/I.

This is all much clearer when I sit and look quietly, but going about my day in “doing mode” it is harder to a) remember to look, and b) when I do the recognition is not as immediate. Of course I don’t want to compartmentalise, want to make sure this can be recognised in daily life. Do you have any advice for this?

So grateful for your guidance!
Natasha