Looking deeper

[Alberto]

Hello Canfora,

You've really got me questioning now!

Look to your hands. What do you see?

I see a pair of hands, I see folds, wrinkles, marks, pores, hairs etc.

Are hands part of you?

They feel like a part of me but this immediately brings me to question who is me?

Are you something that is inside hands?

I really don't feel like I'm inside my hands, or I don't feel that way with any of my extremities but when I do the exercise with my head I do feel like I'm inside my head even inside my chest, I guess because of the thinking and feeling, because of the dialogue I hear inside my head as these questions are being asked.

You can even do an imaginary body scan to see if the body is / has more than bone, muscle, flesh among it.
Let me know how it goes.

When I do the imaginary body scan I don't see anything other than just the parts that make up the body, organs, skeleton veins, muscles etc..


What would you say is looking for a self?
The immediate answer is "well I am" but again it brings me to question who am I and this brings me to question who is questioning the who am I and it starts to feel like an ongoing unfolding with out end.
So what would I say is looking for a self is the mind.

[Alberto]

Hello Canfora,

You've really got me questioning now!

Look to your hands. What do you see?

I see a pair of hands, I see folds, wrinkles, marks, pores, hairs etc.

Are hands part of you?

They feel like a part of me but this immediately brings me to question who is me?

Are you something that is inside hands?

I really don't feel like I'm inside my hands, or I don't feel that way with any of my extremities but when I do the exercise with my head I do feel like I'm inside my head even inside my chest, I guess because of the thinking and feeling, because of the dialogue I hear inside my head as these questions are being asked.

You can even do an imaginary body scan to see if the body is / has more than bone, muscle, flesh among it.
Let me know how it goes.

When I do the imaginary body scan I don't see anything other than just the parts that make up the body, organs, skeleton veins, muscles etc..

What would you say is looking for a self?

The immediate answer is "well I am" but again it brings me to question who am I and this brings me to question who is questioning the who am I and it starts to feel like an ongoing unfolding with out end.
So what would I say is looking for a self is the mind.

[Canfora]

You've really got me questioning now!

Good! Let me know if I'm going too fast or if you are starting to feel confused or stuck.

The immediate answer is "well I am" but again it brings me to question who am I and this brings me to question who is questioning the who am I and it starts to feel like an ongoing unfolding with out end.

Oh, yes. If you start thinking about this, circular thinking is very likely to happen, which means you will be placing your attention in the wrong place. Don't focus in the thinking - expecting thoughts to reach the truth is like trying to eat a meal by reading the menu - impossible and unsatisfactory. First you experience, then you know. Trying to know before experiencing will not get you anywhere. To write a map, you need to walk the path first and only then you can look back and know where you've been, and go back if you want to. You did great looking at body, so you know how to do this, even if sometimes the circular thinking seems to be in the way. When you notice you're thinking, just go back to noticing what is going on here, now instead.

So what would I say is looking for a self is the mind.

What is this mind then?
Is mind a real, findable thing that can look at something?
Or Is mind more a label given to a stream of thinking?

the dialogue I hear inside my head as these questions are being asked

Are you sure thinking is happening inside the head? Do you experience the head as a container inside which thoughts are happening?

Spend some time looking at the origin of thinking. What would you say is thinking thoughts? Can a thought think a thought?

[Alberto]

<r>Hello Canfora,<br/>
<br/>
So far the speed is fine, I like and appreciate the immediacy of your answering for me it's better as it keeps alive the questioning in my day to day and inquiring. Actually at times I wish I was it was a continuous dialogue. The truth is I really want to be done with this and pierce through the veil as to say.<br/>
I understand though that it's not this way and it gives time to process the inquiry.

<QUOTE><s>

</s> First you experience, then you know<e>

</e></QUOTE>

This is a refreshing reminder, it's interesting how caught up we get that loop of thought seemed like a seeing and being trapped repeating over and over again but your pointer makes it clear that it's all thought, could it be that the the experience of this moment is silence always readily available until the mind kicks in and starts to try to define it that's how it feels when I close my eyes and try to see.<br/>

<QUOTE><s>

</s>What is this mind then?<br/>
Is mind a real, findable thing that can look at something? <br/>
Or Is mind more a label given to a stream of thinking?<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Mind is just thought, noise with language, that filters the experience of the world. I wouldn't say it's findable, it definitely feels real, yet I can't find what makes it real, it has no specific location and action seems to act on thought, <br/>
That is what's happening right now as I type and try to formulate an experience, thoughts come and I type or thinking is happening and typing or "languaging" is happening, it is bizarre to observe this. <br/>
Looking is happening and thoughts are happening, looking can happen with out thought, this is such an unusual experience, that I'm starting to realize. I always thought, thought was looking, excuse the redundancy. So it seems thought is mind and mind is thought, although there seems to be a mind without the stream of thinking, although it's not really a mind it's more just like clear seeing, so I would have to say mind is a label given to a stream of thinking.<br/>
<br/>
I always start to notice that when I'm answering its really hard to just answer without the thought process getting in the way and then it starts to feel like I'm overthinking a simple question.</r>

Are you sure thinking is happening inside the head? Do you experience the head as a container inside which thoughts are happening?

It's curious when I close my eyes thinking feels like it's happening inside the head, but not with full certainty, it's almost as though it feels since I'm inside the body the thoughts are happening inside the head, it almost makes me wonder weather thought would operate with out the body, nut then again when I close my eyes there is not necessarily any head, actually thinking about it I would have never seen a picture of myself or looked in the mirror how could I be sure there is even a head on my shoulders other than feeling it with my hands, that would mean that the closer my hands came to my head the closer my hands got to a thought and that just sounds silly , even more if you could open me head you would be able to find thoughts in there which is also ridiculous.
So where is mind or thought for that matter?
Mind seems to exist on it's own despite the body, because I couldn't say that it exists in any other part inside my body, and then again mind seems to exist only because it says that it exists through thought, but again there seems to be a feeling that mind exists also when there is no discursive thought, kind of like a clear glass or still lake.

Spend some time looking at the origin of thinking. What would you say is thinking thoughts? Can a thought think a thought?

Thought seems to sprout from nothingness and then subside again upon itself, similarly to ripples appearing upon a still lake, sometimes with more intensity than others and it seems impossible that a thought can think a thought, since thinking simply happens without the intention of though similar to clouds appearing in the sky a cloud does not crate a cloud, clouding is happening.
Sorry for the jumping around but I'm just trying to spill out what comes out with out hardly any editing other that spell checking and rephrasing, I want to keep as true and direct as possible with my answers to identify the cracks and tricks of the mind more obviously.
Like I said my main intent is being as sincere and true as possible in the process.

Thank you I really feel the wheels are turning in the right direction.

[Alberto]

Hello Canfora,

What is your opinion on watching videos and reading non dual material, sometimes I read or watch some material from Sailor Bob Adamson, Daryl Bailey, Rupert Spira amongst others.

Thanks

[Canfora]

Hi Mario,

So far the speed is fine, I like and appreciate the immediacy of your answering for me it's better as it keeps alive the questioning in my day to day and inquiring. Actually at times I wish I was it was a continuous dialogue. The truth is I really want to be done with this and pierce through the veil as to say.<br/>
I understand though that it's not this way and it gives time to process the inquiry.

Eheh... that's the "big bang" expectation. We hope to be stricken with enlightenment / the truth in a glorious moment and to be done with it.

This is a refreshing reminder, it's interesting how caught up we get that loop of thought seemed like a seeing and being trapped repeating over and over again but your pointer makes it clear that it's all thought, could it be that the the experience of this moment is silence always readily available until the mind kicks in and starts to try to define it that's how it feels when I close my eyes and try to see.<br/>

Isn't every experience readily available? Why are you making a distinction between silence and caught in the loop of thought? Do you think silence is better than being caught in the loop of thought? Why? I ask this because if you do think some experiences are better than others, every time a "bad" experience happens it's very likely you will feel like something is wrong with you, missing, incomplete. You will probably believe that you have to do something to reach a better state and be a better person. This pull to change what is going on at the moment is one of the main reason people keep seeking for something other than this.

Focus in what is here now for a few minutes, as best as you can.

Do you think this moment could be different than it is?

Is this moment made of a collection of separate different experiences - is it possible to find separation, borders, between what is being experienced - or is this moment seamless, complete?

Sorry for the jumping around but I'm just trying to spill out what comes out with out hardly any editing other that spell checking and rephrasing, I want to keep as true and direct as possible with my answers to identify the cracks and tricks of the mind more obviously.
Like I said my main intent is being as sincere and true as possible in the process.

Thank you I really feel the wheels are turning in the right direction.

Yes, you are doing great. I've enjoyed reading your answers.

You have wrote that

action seems to act on thought

Would you say the thinking is making things happen or that the thinking is more like an "after the fact" commentary about what is going on? Below are some suggestions to help you answer this.

I would like you to try a very simple exercise you can do while siting down.

Choose one of the hands, it doesn't matter which. Actively make a choice of one hand or the other.
Then when you've chosen one and you feel you wish to, raise that hand into the air.

Do this as many times as you like, but each time you do it - Inquire on this:

Is the thinking that is making the hand move?

You can also check if thinking is needed for these actions to happen - to do this you have to observe what is going on, like if you are seeing a movie:

- walking in the street or at home

- cooking

- taking a bath

- driving

Let me know how it goes and have fun exploring!

Take care,
C

[Canfora]

Sorry, I've missed your question.

What is your opinion on watching videos and reading non dual material, sometimes I read or watch some material from Sailor Bob Adamson, Daryl Bailey, Rupert Spira amongst others.

I think that you could try stopping reading and watching videos about non duality just for the time being. It may interfere with what we are doing here. We want you to focus in your own experience, not on what others have to say about these subjects. If you feel the pull to read, I would prefer if you read the conversations in this forum, unless they make you feel confused.

[Alberto]

Hello Canfora,

If you do think some experiences are better than others, every time a "bad" experience happens it's very likely you will feel like something is wrong with you, missing, incomplete. You will probably believe that you have to do something to reach a better state and be a better person. This pull to change what is going on at the moment is one of the main reason people keep seeking for something other than this.

It's true, just yesterday I observed this in so many ways, the fact of feeling unsatisfied with what I'm currently handed and wishing it were otherwise, from circumstances, my work, my personal appearance or health, imagining things should be unraveling in other ways than the way they are, brings a sadness and discontent. I see how I hold on to this idea that an awakening will make life easier and more content, peaceful, quite, unaffected by the difficulties of life, other than just seeing experiences for experiences with out classification. I start to see it in moments that life is just happening despite despite what I might think about it.

Focus in what is here now for a few minutes, as best as you can.

Do you think this moment could be different than it is?

This moment is complete in and of itself it doesn't require anything to be added or subtracted, the mind at times wishes otherwise or imposes resistance to what is. This moment could not be different because then, it would be, and that would be what the moment is and no different so the argument almost seems ludicrous.

Is this moment made of a collection of separate different experiences - is it possible to find separation, borders, between what is being experienced - or is this moment seamless, complete?

Interesting, I had always thought of it as a succession of events very closely knitted that you couldn't tell the difference, kind of like a film, it's many frames rapidly being projected so it seems like one continuous movement and that the mental capacity to process information moves way faster than a projector and so creates the impression of fluidity. But what I think your saying is, I'm sleeping, next event, I'm waking up, next event, I'm brushing my teeth, next event, I'm drinking water and so on so life seems to be one experience after another. But in reality if we are not thinking or defining our experiences life is like a flowing stream you can't really differentiate in essence between one event and another it's all just water flowing. I notice though that when someone is having what is considered a good experience they don't want it to be over almost dread the moment coming to an end and vice versa when someone is having a bad experience they want to be done with it waiting for the next defining experience to a better state, so it seems we are running from one defining state to another, but something tells me this isn't so, that life is an organic continuous movement that the mind classifies and dissects.

Would you say the thinking is making things happen or that the thinking is more like an "after the fact" commentary about what is going on?

After trying the exercises I discovered that action does not require thought after raising my arms a few times it was clear, but then I started to notice that my reactions to the exercise were just happening despite thought first I started laughing at the realization and the almost came to tears because of it and any event after that would simply be happening without the need for thought at all to command it and I noticed it all throughout the day it was a fun experiment as you said, it really shows that life is just flowing and thought is just a commentator after the fact the thought has no place really in the play of life but then that brings to mind how about will, free will, will power and so on if life is just unfolding then why try to shape it? Why so many paths for self improvement in so many areas of humanness, if it is that simple, and if it is so simple then why do I still feel like I need to advance?

Thanks again
Greatly apreciated for your guidance

[Canfora]

Hi Mario,

It's true, just yesterday I observed this in so many ways, the fact of feeling unsatisfied with what I'm currently handed and wishing it were otherwise, from circumstances, my work, my personal appearance or health, imagining things should be unraveling in other ways than the way they are, brings a sadness and discontent. I see how I hold on to this idea that an awakening will make life easier and more content, peaceful, quite, unaffected by the difficulties of life, other than just seeing experiences for experiences with out classification. I start to see it in moments that life is just happening despite despite what I might think about it.

What are your thoughts around awakening? What do you think awakening is? And what do you think can awake?
Are you unawake now to what is going on?

This moment is complete in and of itself it doesn't require anything to be added or subtracted, the mind at times wishes otherwise or imposes resistance to what is. This moment could not be different because then, it would be, and that would be what the moment is and no different so the argument almost seems ludicrous.

Yes.

Interesting, I had always thought of it as a succession of events very closely knitted that you couldn't tell the difference, kind of like a film, it's many frames rapidly being projected so it seems like one continuous movement and that the mental capacity to process information moves way faster than a projector and so creates the impression of fluidity. But what I think your saying is, I'm sleeping, next event, I'm waking up, next event, I'm brushing my teeth, next event, I'm drinking water and so on so life seems to be one experience after another. But in reality if we are not thinking or defining our experiences life is like a flowing stream you can't really differentiate in essence between one event and another it's all just water flowing. I notice though that when someone is having what is considered a good experience they don't want it to be over almost dread the moment coming to an end and vice versa when someone is having a bad experience they want to be done with it waiting for the next defining experience to a better state, so it seems we are running from one defining state to another, but something tells me this isn't so, that life is an organic continuous movement that the mind classifies and dissects.

I understand what you are saying but that was not what I was trying to point at. Look at what is happening now. See what is here. Do you see a succession of experiences? Do you see past experiences or future experiences? Or do you see life going on now?

Thought labels constantly, which seems to create separation - chair, bottle, hand cream, ginger, screen - but if you look, is life a big puzzle of separate things or a allness? Do you see a all - like seeing a live painting - or do you see evidences of fragmentation?

I know this can be difficult to grasp immediately and it goes a little aside from the scope of the separate self illusion. Hoping I'm not over-complicating.

something tells me this isn't so, that life is an organic continuous movement that the mind classifies and dissects.

Yes. If you look, is this something you can see? Or are you speculating?

thought has no place really in the play of life

Isn't thought also life?

how about will, free will, will power and so on if life is just unfolding then why try to shape it? Why so many paths for self improvement in so many areas of humanness, if it is that simple, and if it is so simple then why do I still feel like I need to advance?

Those are good questions. I think the need to advance, the need to improve is part of the package of being a human. Life goes on!

Take care,
C

[Alberto]

Hi Canfora,

What are your thoughts around awakening? What do you think awakening is? And what do you think can awake?
Are you unawake now to what is going on?

Obviously I have to much spiritual literature in my brain concerning this word "Awakening", but let me try to be as transparent as possible with what I truly feel and perceive.

What are your thoughts around awakening?

Awakening is that precisely that, awakening from a dream, the dream of separate self. And with that comes a release from the density that life feels like when it is interwoven with a whole bunch of beliefs about one self and a separate world and the suffering and psychological imbalances that come along with that.

What do you think awakening is?

The idea that there is this individual me who is trapped in the identification to all the ideas he has about himself, basically the looping narratives about who he thinks himself to be, and to realize he is not any of the stories about himself is awakening.

what do you think can awake?
That's a good question, in all honesty "I" think "I" can awake, at least that how it feels, which I know that's incorrect for how is this "I" going to awaken to itself when it's trying to awaken from itself and realize "I" don't exist it's like encouraging it's own annihilation therefore actually it's reinforcing the search.

Are you unawake now to what is going on?

Absolutely not, as soon as the question is asked, it dispels any temporary illusory dream since I am obviously here, present, conscious and awake as I always was. What is here present is without interpretation and can never be otherwise, no mater what you may think about it.

Look at what is happening now. See what is here. Do you see a succession of experiences? Do you see past experiences or future experiences? Or do you see life going on now?

Your definitely not complicating it, I was actually wondering were I was heading with my comment. When I look at what is happening now it is only now never any other moment there is no succession of events just what is plain and obvious in this moment even if thoughts about past memories or future projections present themselves in thought they can only happen in this moment, there is only this moment.

Life is an organic continuous movement that the mind classifies and dissects.
Yes. If you look, is this something you can see? Or are you speculating?

This is something I can definitely see the world seems to be a dance of shape and form and even these definitions add too much to what is actually happening.

Isn't thought also life?

You're right it is.

[Canfora]

Good morning, Mario.

Wow! Lovely answers, well done!

how is this "I" going to awaken to itself when it's trying to awaken from itself and realize "I" don't exist it's like encouraging it's own annihilation therefore actually it's reinforcing the search

Yes, absolutely accurate.

I would like you to spend some time considering the role labeling and language have in the play of the illusion. Ilona has 2 good articles about this in her blog, here are the addresses:

The Trick of Language - http://markedeternal.blogspot.pt/2012/0 ... guage.html

Labels - http://markedeternal.blogspot.pt/2012/05/labels.html

There is an exercise in the labels article that you can do - you can do all the writing here or just answer the underlined questions.

Reading, verifying the veracity of what is being suggested and doing the exercise may take a while, so take your time, no need to rush.

Here is the exercise:

• "do this little experiment that won't even take much of your time. All you need is 20 minutes, a pen & paper.
  
  First write what you are experiencing right now using words I and me. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just plain description of here now.
  
  Like this-
  I am laying in bed. I am hearing the rain, I am typing these words..
  
  Do it for 10 minutes. Watch the body, are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?
  
  Then for next 10 minutes write without words I and me. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs:
  Waiting for next thought, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the rain.
  
  Again watch what is happening in the body.
  
  Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?"

Take care,
C

[Alberto]

Hi Canfora,
Very interesting articles and fascinating. I've always been intrigued at the power of language and how it shapes reality, always thought the word spell must have some association to the word spell as it is used in magic to create an illusion seem real.
Well here goes, I'm having fun with these little exercises.

Im sitting at the kitchen table, I am typing on the keyboard, I am hearing ringing in my ear, I am sipping soup from a cup, I am feeling the taste on my tongue, I am turning around, I am picking up the pot, I am serving myself more soup, I'm licking the spoon, I'm sniffing my nose. I'm stopping typing, Im doing some spelling corrections, I'm listening to the sound of the waves. I'm scratching my head, I am coughing, I licking my lips, I'm taking another sip of soup, I'm adding more ginger juice to my soup, I'm listening to the rustling of papers, I'm stoping to converse with my partner.

Typing, sniffing, listening to talk, clearing throat, typing, grabbing cup, tapping fingers, thinking, typing, looking away, sighing, listening to ringing, listening to beeping in the distance, getting concerned, breathing heavy, correcting, typing, sitting, resting head on hand, scratching head, taking deep breath, rubbing face and eyes, reading, scratching behind ear

Now compare the two ways to label experience- is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?"

I honestly couldnt feel a great difference, and I realized that on the the first part of the exercise I had skipped the I am for the first few descriptions and had to make a conscious effort to add in the I am. But it seems, Without the I there seems to be less possibility for weaving a story, or saying more than needs to be said other than what concerns this moment, without the I there seems to be an increased attentiveness to all that is happening without attaching to any one thing just a natural jumping of attention to next most obvious thing without effort and spaces of restful stillness between one happening and another.

Speak soon

[Canfora]

Hi Mario,

Good job with the exercise! It seems you are enjoying this exploration, that's wonderful and it makes me happy.

This is exactly what seeing is:

Typing, sniffing, listening to talk, clearing throat, typing, grabbing cup, tapping fingers, thinking, typing, looking away, sighing, listening to ringing, listening to beeping in the distance, getting concerned, breathing heavy, correcting, typing, sitting, resting head on hand, scratching head, taking deep breath, rubbing face and eyes, reading, scratching behind ear

Let's do a checkpoint, so that I can sense where you are in relation to the gate.

At the time being can you see the separate self is an illusion everytime you look?

Does it feel like something is missing?

Do you have doubts?

Did anything change since we started this conversation?

Take care,
C

[Alberto]

Hello Canfora,

I really had to wait for the right time to answer these as the feeling of progress was keeping me in a place of expectation and goal orientated. At times I feel less caught up in the personal dramas of the mind but Friday was not one of those days. But it did give me the opportunity to see how I was projecting an image of myself that I was trying to achive and could drop it right there since the thirst for truth is greater.

At the time being can you see the separate self is an illusion every time you look?

"I" still get swept by the currents of "I"-ness every now and then but If I look there is only the happening and it's not happening to anyone it's just happening.

Does it feel like something is missing?

Once you see there is no one, what could possibly be missing, how could you possibly add or take from that which has no form.

Do you have doubts?

The doubt's only come when the gravitational pull of the mind stands in the forefront ? But there is still a difficulty in seeing others as others and being annoyed by, irritated, attracted, intimidated, etc. So what I understand is that if "I" would truly dissolve then there would be no other.

Did anything change since we started this conversation?

It has and it hasn't, in the sense that presence has always been available, it's no different now, than it was or It'll ever be, since there is only this present moment but in the story yes, the pointing and the questioning have allowed me to go deeper in a way that on my own I wasn't really doing but only superficially and even though I still get caught up in the feelings and storylines the stickiness seems to be less. To the point that the inquiry has continued throughout my sleep and in my dreams.

Talk soon

[Canfora]

Hi Mario,
I'll reply tomorrow morning. Too tired to write a post that meets my own perfectionist standards and with a Christmas tree still waiting for my attention.
Take care,
C