Looking for guidance

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anand
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Looking for guidance

Postby anand » Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:32 pm

Hi - I'd love some guidance.

I've gotten to a place where I believe (understand) that the self doesn't exist. I'd like to get to a place where I SEE that's true.

Help will be much appreciated.

Hilary

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aubergine99
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby aubergine99 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:02 pm

Hello Hilary,

Glad you feel ready for this investigation. I will be happy to guide you if you are happy to accept my offer.

During this investigation please put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. It's ok to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please learn to use the quote function as explained at the top of this section.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/, together with our disclaimer and a short video.

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer, and that you'd like me to be your guide and then we'll begin.

Best wishes,
Brigitte

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anand
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby anand » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:16 pm

Brigette,

I'd like to accept your offer.

I have read the intro and the disclaimer and watched the video before (the video is a very good intro) and I agree to the disclaimer.

Thanks so much for your offer,

Hilary

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aubergine99
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby aubergine99 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:05 pm

Thanks Hilary,

Ready, steady and go, let's begin.

There are a few ground rules, please respond to confirm:

1. You agree to post at least once a day.
2. In general, I will ask the questions for you to respond to.
3. Responses require your utmost honesty
4. Responses are best from direct experience (DE) (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.

Could you tell me what your expectations are for liberation?

How will this feel?

How will this change you?

Answer as best you can and my motto is "keep it simple" but "keep it clear" too. Too much dialogue may cause unnecessary confusion.

Brigitte x

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anand
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby anand » Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:08 pm

Thanks Brigette

Shouldn’t be a problem to post once a day, unless there’s an emergency. Even then I will let you know.
Could you tell me what your expectations are for liberation?
I’m not sure - I used to be looking for bliss, feeling good. Now? A shift from believing in no-self to SEEING.
How will this feel?
Open, clear, certain, free, flowing, lighter
How will this change you?
I’m not sure much will change initially - Hilary has been happening all along, there is just this mis-thought of self. Hilarying will keep happening, doing, feeling, thinking, reacting. Just no self. Long term, I will find out.

Hilary

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aubergine99
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby aubergine99 » Thu Oct 31, 2013 11:02 am

Thanks Hilary,
I’m not sure - I used to be looking for bliss, feeling good. Now? A shift from believing in no-self to SEEING.
‘Not sure’ is good, as it implies an openness to discovery. ‘Seeing’ happens through direct experience as opposed to thoughts/beliefs.
‘Not sure’ is good, as it implies an openness to discovery. ‘Seeing’ happens through direct experience as opposed to thoughts/beliefs.

Open, clear, certain, free, flowing, lighter

‘certain’? – there is no certainty in anything, nor will there be after this process.
I’m not sure much will change initially - Hilary has been happening all along, there is just this mis-thought of self. Hilarying will keep happening, doing, feeling, thinking, reacting. Just no self. Long term, I will find out.
Now please focus on the following:

“What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form. There never has been a “you”, nor is there, nor will there ever be?”

How does reading that feel to you? Physically and emotionally. What are thoughts saying? Does it make sense? If not, why not?

With warm wishes
Brigitte

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anand
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby anand » Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:30 pm

Brigette -
Now please focus on the following:

“What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form. There never has been a “you”, nor is there, nor will there ever be?”
Sense of remembering, recognition, been here before.
How does reading that feel to you?

Physically?
Shoulders dropping, relaxing.
and emotionally?
Relief, anticipation
What are thoughts saying?
Of course!

Why do I only feel this when I look?
Does it make sense?
Yes

Continuing thanks

Hilary

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aubergine99
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby aubergine99 » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:49 pm

Good start.
“What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form. There never has been a “you”, nor is there, nor will there ever be?”
Sense of remembering, recognition, been here before
.
You are referring to thoughts about the past. I would like to see what thoughts are coming up for you regarding the above, in the present moment, if any. If there are, can you describe these for me?

In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience? If so, where is it? If not, what is it that is experiencing anything in this moment? Are thoughts part of experience and what about their content? Do you experience the past and future? How?

I need a bit more detail this time round pls, Hilary, so that I can guide you as best I can.

Thanks, Brigitte.

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anand
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby anand » Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:24 am

Hi Brigette
You are referring to thoughts about the past. I would like to see what thoughts are coming up for you regarding the above, in the present moment, if any. If there are, can you describe these for me?
It was more like the thought "this is familiar". When you asked "What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form", it triggered a looking and there was a feeling of recognition, then a labeling thought "like recognizing an old friend".
In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience? If so, where is it? If not, what is it that is experiencing anything in this moment? Are thoughts part of experience and what about their content?
When I look I cannot find an I experiencing. Physical sensations are happening, thoughts are commenting on the sensations. Thoughts about what to type next, typing the words, seeing the words on the screen. All just happening, but I don't see anything doing the experiencing - just happening.
Do you experience the past and future? How?
I see thoughts about the past and future, just stories, not direct experience. These thoughts seem to be important to make my way through my life, interacting with other people, working etc. - but it's clear that they are just stories. The stories are beginning to be less important (less sticky) - it's hard to describe, the thoughts still happen like "that shouldn't have happened" or "I'm right and they're wrong", but they aren't hooking me in the same way. I seem to be taking myself much less seriously that I have before.
I need a bit more detail this time round pls, Hilary, so that I can guide you as best I can.
I hope the detail helps

Hilary

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aubergine99
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby aubergine99 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:34 pm

I see you have no trouble in looking, Hilary, that’s great.
The stories are beginning to be less important (less sticky) - it's hard to describe, the thoughts still happen like "that shouldn't have happened" or "I'm right and they're wrong", but they aren't hooking me in the same way. I seem to be taking myself much less seriously that I have before.
I see there is less identification with thoughts happening. The thoughts will continue to happen but the nature of the thoughts may change as you go through this process.

Here is an exercise on experience for you.

Is there a gap between the perceiver of thoughts—thoughts and thinking—or is there just one process that we call thinking? Test it with a sound. Stop everything for two minutes and listen intently to all sounds that are present. Is there a hearer of sounds, separate from hearing and the heard? Where does hearing happen? Listen to distant sounds. Where is the hearer then? With closed eyes, check if there is a line between here and there. Can it be defined?

When smelling an object, what is real about the sense of smell? When does it start, and when does it end? What causes the experience?

When you observe a flower, is there any separation between you and the flower? Is there a difference in experience when you observe the tip of your nose and the stars in the sky?

Speak soon
Brigitte

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anand
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby anand » Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:21 pm

Here is an exercise on experience for you.

Is there a gap between the perceiver of thoughts—thoughts and thinking—or is there just one process that we call thinking? Test it with a sound. Stop everything for two minutes and listen intently to all sounds that are present. Is there a hearer of sounds, separate from hearing and the heard? Where does hearing happen? Listen to distant sounds. Where is the hearer then? With closed eyes, check if there is a line between here and there. Can it be defined?

When smelling an object, what is real about the sense of smell? When does it start, and when does it end? What causes the experience?

When you observe a flower, is there any separation between you and the flower? Is there a difference in experience when you observe the tip of your nose and the stars in the sky?
Great exercise!

There doesn't seem to be a perceiver - of thoughts, hearing, observing. The gap seems to be between the hearing/observing and the thoughts about those experiences. Hearing happens, then thoughts labeling, "leaf blower". Observing happens, then label "that's a rose". But no separate perceiver. Just hearing, observing, smelling, thinking.
When smelling an object, what is real about the sense of smell? When does it start, and when does it end? What causes the experience?
Smell is directly experienced, that's what makes it real. It starts when it starts and ends when it ends. I'm assuming the cause is some external stimulus to the olfactory sensors in the body, but I really don't know. Smelling often triggers thoughts about the smelling.
When you observe a flower, is there any separation between you and the flower? Is there a difference in experience when you observe the tip of your nose and the stars in the sky?
I can't see a difference between my observing the tip of my nose and objects at a distance (no stars in the sky right now). Any perceived separation is in the thoughts about the observation, "that flower is within reach".

There also seems to be significant periods of what I might call "being" out of which the thoughts, hearing, observing, feeling, etc arise. It's like a space out of which these experiences arise. Often nothing is arising, just a sense of being. This is WAY beyond my ability to put into words.

Thanks always

Hilary

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aubergine99
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby aubergine99 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:47 pm

Hi Hilary,
There doesn't seem to be a perceiver - of thoughts, hearing, observing.
You seem a bit unsure. Look again. Is there a perceiver or not? There should be no doubt.
The gap seems to be between the hearing/observing and the thoughts about those experiences
Do you see that the gap here is just another thought. Where can it be seen in DE? It is one continuous flow of experience.

Do you see a gap between the observing and the object? Like when you see a cat, for example? Try this with, say, reading the screen, kicking a ball, brushing your teeth. Do you see a gap?
When smelling an object - What causes the experience?
Bit of a trick question this. The answer is just a story about smell. Knowledge of what causes smell is a bunch of thoughts. The ‘cause of smell’ is non existent in DE.
There also seems to be significant periods of what I might call "being" out of which the thoughts, hearing, observing, feeling, etc arise. It's like a space out of which these experiences arise. Often nothing is arising, just a sense of being. This is WAY beyond my ability to put into words.
That sounds like peace!

Are you the Do-er/Controller of actions?

Do you do anything? Do you walk from A to B? Do you go shopping or go to work? Do you breathe? Do you make the blood flow through your veins? Do you sneeze, yawn? Do you think? How does any of this happen? Choose two or three and let me know.

Brigitte

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anand
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby anand » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:01 pm

Hi again Brigette
You seem a bit unsure. Look again. Is there a perceiver or not? There should be no doubt.
It's a language issue - I write/speak in passive voice at work (Human Services) - there is NO perceiver.
Do you do anything? Do you walk from A to B? Do you go shopping or go to work? Do you breathe? Do you make the blood flow through your veins? Do you sneeze, yawn? Do you think? How does any of this happen? Choose two or three and let me know.
"I" don't DO anything - DOing happens - on close examination in the walking example, the impulse to take the first step happens, then the next and the next - no me doing it. It's clear that thinking is happening, no thinker - verb, not noun - I read that on LU and it clicked.

The bodily functions clearly happen without a me controlling/doing. Even stifling a yawn: yawning happens, then thinking "shouldn't be yawning in this meeting" happens, action to stop yawning happens - no me.

Hilary

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aubergine99
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby aubergine99 » Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:00 pm

You seem to be sailing through this with ease, Hilary.

The self as the Chooser:

How do you make decisions in your daily life? Describe briefly something you are happy to share with me. Take me through step by step.

Exercise:

Imagine two objects in front of you, e.g. coffee or tea, blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper, then sit and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way. Describe how choosing happens.

The self in / as the body:

Are you the body? Are you the mind? Does the body experience sensations and thought?

Warm wishes
Brigitte

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anand
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby anand » Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:41 pm

Hi Brigette

Before I answer your questions, I want to describe something that happened this morning. I will be using "I" as a convention of speech.

This morning is a beautiful fall morning, sun shining through the red and yellow fall leaves. There was a strong feeling of joy in the pit of my stomach. But something was missing. I looked (thank you LU for the idea of looking) and found what was missing was the thought of ME. Just seeing, feeling. Direct and close - no separation, just experiencing.

Later in the day: Shopping for groceries, having conversations, working in a local park with neighbors cleaning up - very absorbed in the cleaning, shopping, conversing, but if I stop to take a look, still no me.

It feels like a very small thing, one change, but pretty amazing. My life continues - feels lighter (bad description, but good for now). Every now and then I look again and most of the time, no me. Sometimes thoughts of me, but almost instantly seen through.

Now for the questions;
The self as the Chooser:

How do you make decisions in your daily life? Describe briefly something you are happy to share with me. Take me through step by step.

Exercise:

Imagine two objects in front of you, e.g. coffee or tea, blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper, then sit and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way. Describe how choosing happens.
Shopping today - walking through supermarket, thoughts about what kind of fish for this week, thought that chooses, talking to clerk about my choice. The choice-point just happens.
The self in / as the body:

Are you the body?
No - the body exists, that's not me - there is no me - just experiencing the body.
Are you the mind?
No - in DE mind isn't experienced, just thoughts happening in an empty space you might call being, for lack of a better way to put it.
Does the body experience sensations and thought?
The body has pain, pleasure, etc. That is experienced, but not by the body.

The body doesn't think, thought happens and is experienced.

Much gratitude for your taking the time for this.

Hilary


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