This conversation took place on the LU facebook GATE group
Nick Hi mark, what brings you here?
Friday at 12:21am · Like
Mark I liked an Alfred Aiken page on FB and tonight that page posted a link to the LU website. Hello Nick!
Friday at 12:46am via mobile · Like
Nick Ok cool. check out our group, enjoy some of the files/documents, etc. What we do here is help people to look and see the truth of no-self, through 1 on 1 dialog, like a guided inquiry. Let us know if you are interested and we can get you started with a guide.
Friday at 12:51am · Like · 1
Mark Yes, very interested....but feeling inadequate when it comes to expressing the so-called inner workings of my character in this human illusion. I didn't know there was such a place as this and have not had any dialogue with anyone else.....only books.
Friday at 11:15am via mobile · Like
Mark Gotta add....VERY GREATFUL, like an avid collector of something obscure wandering into a convention of other avid collectors for the first time ever...experiencing without knowing where it will go.
Friday at 11:26am via mobile · Like · 1
Nick ok Mark, let's do it. I will ask questions, you answer. That's all. Casual conversation between ordinary people. I have a few rules or expectations for you. #1 - complete 100% honesty in everything you post here. #2 - we both agree to check in every day until satisfied. #3 - you take a temporary break from other "spiritual" crap like reading books, YouTube videos, visiting gurus, etc. Sound good?
Friday at 11:30am · Like
Mark Absolutely! And thank you ordinary Nick. Ask away.....
Friday at 11:38am via mobile · Like
Nick what does "I" or "self" mean to you?
Friday at 11:39am · Like
Mark those are two words that are used to describe the One Self.....and also used to identify myself as a separate individual.
Friday at 11:50am via mobile · Like
Nick mkay... what are your expectations for this dialog? What do you want to happen? What do you realistically think will happen? Any fears?
Friday at 11:57am · Like
from what has been experienced so far, I want to be pleasantly surprised at the non-existence of any separate self and helped to see where there is some facet of this small self that is still being held onto. i already expressed my fear that i would not be very good at expressing my inner workings (that aren't really there) and so I'm kind of afraid that you may get fed up with my answers and ditch me. I never expected to find what i'm finding and this has made me have less of an expectation specifically with more of an expectation that what is True is Good. I don't want to sound like a book when I talk and i'm afraid that i do sometimes. i'm not surrounded by people who want to talk about any of the things that i've seen on this group. realistically I want to be wide awake and a blessing to all around me. (Blessing seems like a good word to use). i am so appreciating this dialogue already.
Friday at 12:17pm via mobile · Like
Nick Let's take a minute to examine what is real and what is not. For example, a table is a real "thing". Batman is imaginary, a character in stories. What is the difference? How do you know if something is real or not?
Friday at 12:37pm · Like
the simple answer would be that it can actually be found.....like "go to the living room and you will find the table." But go wherever and you will not find a real batman. but my perception of things has changed so much over the years that I have found that mental perception sees and believes things to be there when they really aren't. I used to believe in Santa Claus. I used to believe an evangelical view of reality. Now, at this point in my life I don't even believe that a material table is there of itself but it is really just a manifestation of the idea of a table by Spirit. and I really don't believe that I exist as anymore than a character in a dream. I, we, are the One Self knowing Itself individually as ourselves, the grass, the table, the ocean.....everything is just Everything knowing itself as everything that is. Tao. God. Awareness. if you are going to ask me if I think of Mark Sturm as myself or as the watcher .......yeah i guess those kind of ego thoughts still roll on through; but there's definitely not the same sense of a separate me being the real Me,Us. But, of course i have moments when i get depressed or angry or excited when i seem to forget all that. temporary blindness? usually something not-so-pleasant will happen an kind of shake me out of it. Did I miss your question ? i guess the short answer would be that you know something is real because you can see it, find it, see its effect (like the wind)
Friday at 1:24pm via mobile · Like
Nick my sort of understanding is that the table is a real "thing" because it's still exists, regardless of what you think or believe about it... (i use the quotes cos i'ts not really a permanent separate entity). As opposed to Batman or Santa, which only exist as a story or belief. In other words, the ideas of Santa and Batman are real, but they don't REFER TO anything real in real life.
Friday at 3:17pm · Like
Nick would you agree that "I" or "self" is also a thought or a story like Batman or Santa?
Friday at 3:17pm · Like
Mark Yes. I and self are stories that do not exist. Thoughts and changes within the story make it seem like there is growth, unfolding, and evolving of a separate self....but no separate self is there to be found. For lack of a better word, the HEART knows this while the intellect can never grasp it. Realizing it silences thinking and leaves only silent, empty perceiving.
Friday at 3:35pm via mobile · Like
Nick you say the heart knows this... isn't that identifying the heart as a separate entity, giving a new name to the self? Take a look right now, when this no-self is being seen, what is it that is doing the looking? is there anything, any subjective entity?
Friday at 3:44pm · Like
Mark i guess it could be.....but that is not my intention. i probably should capitalize heart to clarify that i am referring to the one , life, reality, god, truth. in reality there is only life that is knowing itself......no separate knower, no separate heart.....only the one self
Friday at 4:06pm via mobile · Like
Nick ok i see what you mean... would you say that "you" are this one self? is this one self the subject of experiences? is there any difference between the watcher, watching, and watched object?
Friday at 7:20pm · Like
Mark no difference...good pointing Nick!!!
Friday at 11:26pm via mobile · Like · 1
What is to be said about the going back and forth between seeing and dreaming except that there is no one going back and forth....no one dreaming? God is all there is and we are that, Spirit. There is no material world, no mankind struggling to get free....no separate self to be enlightened or awakened. All such struggle and work is futile because it is based on the faulty premise that there is a separate self that has to cross a bridge, attain enlightenment, travel from one place to another in consciousness.....while all the while there is no perfection to be added to perfection. The very act of trying to see or break free or attain is what would keep the illusion alive (theoretically, not in reality) because there is nothing separate from the one whole perfect infinite life. If I seem to be a separate ego caught up in my quest it is only because I am imagining that there is some kind of spiritual journey that has to be made. There isn't even a gate to pass through that would end the madness because it already is nonexistant. Using imagination only, I who am not can remember a time in the also imagined past when I was dilligently applying all my energies seeking after that which already is and missing it. But there is no past or future in Spirit....only now. One thing that has become clearer in my conversation with you is that even the conversation is fraught with contradiction because of all the labels we use when talking. What you do here Nick seems to be a constant pointing back to the one fact that is. And enlightenment is nothing more than an exhausting of the mental gymnastics of seeking in order to rest in the one fact that is. So....the ego is not annihilated or removed as much as it is seen through as nothing more than an interesting story?
Saturday at 12:21pm via mobile · Like
Nick Excellent, inspiring writing Mark! Do you feel there is anything missing from your understanding?
Saturday at 1:08pm · Like
Mark Do you? please remember friend...this is my first conversation. you have stolen my conversational virginity.......so no pillow talk? hahahahahaha
Saturday at 1:31pm via mobile · Like · 1
Nick Mark, I think that seeing has happened. I have 5 questions, we always ask these same questions, gives you a chance to really express it... take your time and answer them. Then we'll check, you, me, some others too, and see if everybody is satsified.
Saturday at 1:49pm · Like
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this?
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Saturday at 1:49pm · Like · 1
Mark #1---There is no me that exists or ever did exist. #2---There is no separate me to know illusion. illusion could be compared to a dark room; Seeing could be compared to light entering that room to reveal that there is no thing called darkness
Yesterday at 1:05pm · Like
The illusion is that we are all individual separate entities with minds and wills that are separate and independant. One could say that we are conditioned to think this way as children, but that looking for a beginning of illusion is based on the assumption that there actually is a separate self that can be affected negatively by conditioning. Why waste time trying to make sense of a dreamed existence? All such effort , as well as all efforts to become, reform, transcend, evolve, awaken are the reason a separate ego seems to exist. All of it is an imaginary groping in darkness; When we see that we are seeing as the one awareness, the light of that seeing reveals that there is no darkness of a separate self.
Yesterday at 3:05pm · Like
#3---it feels like when you wake up from a bad dream and are so relieved. The simple beauty of life is apparent. It needs no explanation and yet it is constantly blooming with insight. Ordinary things are profound. Profound things are simple when you aren't so obsessed with forcing them to fit into some limited mental framework that a separate self laboriously constructs. Seeing other people, I can see the same awareness that we all are regardless of whether they seem to be in touch with it or not. Calm and joy are the norm....and even suffering is small and insignificant because I am not the object of it as a separate, isolated self. I am what you are, without beginning or end.
9 hours ago via mobile · Like
#4) I would describe the illusion to somebody who has never heard about it by first giving them examples of times when they have been fooled by their own misperception by a practical joke, or a scam, or any instance where someone believed something that wasn t true. for example, my wifes whole family was at the hospital while grandma was having exploratory surgery. they were all in the waiting room along with another large family whose grandmother was having the same surgery. a doctor came out and told my wifes family that he had bad news for them and that she wasn t going to make it very long. there were lots of tears and loud crying and grief. moments later, the doctor returned to say that he was mistaken and that it was the other family that was going to lose their grandma. my wifes family was relieved, but then realized what the other family in the waiting was experiencing and went over to comfort them. during the short time that my wifes family believed they were losing grandma, they were living as if what the doctor said was true.
7 hours ago via mobile · Like · 1
Mark #5) what made me look? Sheer mental exhaustion and the unstoppable voice of reality.
7 hours ago via mobile · Like
Nick Mark, thanks so much for taking the time to answer these questions. It's been an honor to chat with you! Please accept my friend request and I will add you to the facebook groups "Unleashed" and "Beyond the Gate"... these are private groups for the liberated, to meet and talk and share things.
3 hours ago · Like · 1
Mark Thank you too Nick! It's been an honor chatting with you as well and I love what you're doing here.
3 hours ago via mobile · Like
This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
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