I would like to have a conversation with LIFE/Machiel

[Life]

yes. The senses are there. I see the screen. I hear music. I hear the rain outside.I feel an itch

Also while sleeping?

What and where is the I in see, hear, feel?

It is here. It is obvious. I see the screen. There, I see the speakers. THey are black and have a hole in it. I see a lamp. I see a clock. The I is there in the experience of seeing, of colours. Obvious.

where I said, what is the I you speak of? What is it not? Really, dont tell me you dont know cause what is you? Does I come and go?

Are you doing seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling or does it just happen choiceless?

I tried to turn the seeing of. Can only do that when I close the eyes and close the ears. So I am inside the head watchign a world outside of me. I am my eyes, I am the ears, the nose. In the direct experience it is like that. a world outside and I am in here in the head seeing, hearing, smelling. I am the force which makes seeing, hearing happen. Perhaps a soul seeing through the eyes.

BUt with feeling it is another thing. It seems it is always on. I can't turn that off if I want. Perhaps only when I am burned, which is not happening. So not relying on science, I want to direct experience that I am not the eys, nose, the person inside of the head seeing, hrearing through the senses. As if I have never heard of awareness, whatever that is.

Try to answer the question, are you doing anything to make the senses happen?

When the eyes are closed the inside of the eyelids are seen, what knows the eyes are closed? When the ears are closed the blood circulation or heartbeat can be heard, what knows the ears are closed?

In life, whenever I think I can do something or am in control of something, life stops abruptly...I stand still and life doesn't flow. IT happens so many times in the morning when I wake up, waiting for the waking up to happen....waiting for the standing up to happen, waiting for the clothes to be put on, then another standstill for 1 minute , looking if I am in control of brushing the teeth, another standstill, waiting or looking if I can make the toothpaste open..another standstill....looking if I can turn on the shower..in all of those standstills there is a thougth in the background deeply ingrained that says something like 'if life is happening on itself, why the standstills...why doesn't life flow effortlessly?'

I hope that clears up why seeing doesn't happen here. Same with the 5 senses.

So tell me how this standstill is not part of 'life happening on itself'? Of course the body needs to make effort else it would stay in bed all day ;) But look closely, what exactly happens? Eyes open, everything is there, are thoughts immediately there? Or is there a very short interval to the first thought? Investigate. Thought comes, time to get up, do you control the exact thought and its moment?

Were you born with thought? Go back to your very first memory.

[The Toe]

Hi, I tried to answer directly this time. Hope all is well.

Also while sleeping?

the senses do not function in sleep. but what hears the alarm going on at 7 in the morning?

where I said, what is the I you speak of? What is it not? Really, dont tell me you dont know cause what is you? Does I come and go?

The thought says 'I am here'. The thought says 'I breath', but that isn't true. The thought says I was moistering the lips, but that isn't true. Moistering was allready happening! So the I is the thought that claims stuff as being the one in control.

Try to answer the question, are you doing anything to make the senses happen?

if I let go of all effort or stop the sesnes, senses still go on. So no, I am not doing anything for the senses to happen. THere is no turn off switch or on.

When the eyes are closed the inside of the eyelids are seen, what knows the eyes are closed?

The one that sees that the inside of the eyelids is seen is me. I see blackness. YOu say 'the eyelids are seen'. Who sees the eyelids then if it isn't me?

When the ears are closed the blood circulation or heartbeat can be heard, what knows the ears are closed?

DOn't know what knows. I hear the heartbeat and the pumping of the blood. When I close the ears, there is no music right now. SO there is a correlation between hearing with ears and music. The music is the heard.

Code: Select all

So tell me how this standstill is not part of 'life happening on itself'? Of course the body needs to make effort else it would stay in bed all day ;) But look closely, what exactly happens?

Good point. Gonna look into that cause it happens a lot that I stand still and nothing happens by itself.

Eyes open, everything is there, are thoughts immediately there?

No. Thoughts come a bit later. SO yes, seeing and hearing is allready functioning without anyone. The body wakes by itself. Same with hunger, thirsts or yawning.

Were you born with thought? Go back to your very first memory.

being born is same as waking up. I can't remember when my first thought popped up, but what I can say is that insanity of to much belief in negative thoughts arose later on. NOt at birth.

[Life]

Hi, I tried to answer directly this time. Hope all is well.

Also while sleeping?

the senses do not function in sleep. but what hears the alarm going on at 7 in the morning?

First hope all is well there too :)

Yes you tell me ;) Must be that which is there continuously, sleeping or awake, but what does this mean if waking happens without senses or mind(thoughts)?

where I said, what is the I you speak of? What is it not? Really, dont tell me you dont know cause what is you? Does I come and go?

The thought says 'I am here'. The thought says 'I breath', but that isn't true. The thought says I was moistering the lips, but that isn't true. Moistering was allready happening! So the I is the thought that claims stuff as being the one in control.

Yes yes, first things happen and immediately thought kicks in claiming it did it and or it should be different. But is this claim true? Are you this thought?

Try to answer the question, are you doing anything to make the senses happen?

if I let go of all effort or stop the sesnes, senses still go on. So no, I am not doing anything for the senses to happen. THere is no turn off switch or on.

So they begin, function and stop involuntarily, so are you the senses?

When the eyes are closed the inside of the eyelids are seen, what knows the eyes are closed?

The one that sees that the inside of the eyelids is seen is me. I see blackness. YOu say 'the eyelids are seen'. Who sees the eyelids then if it isn't me?

the eyes keep functioning closed or not just as the ears

DOn't know what knows. I hear the heartbeat and the pumping of the blood. When I close the ears, there is no music right now. SO there is a correlation between hearing with ears and music. The music is the heard.

dont the ears always hear everything there can be heard all at once? the typing, the music and the background noise at the same time, hearing happens totally involuntarily.

So tell me how this standstill is not part of 'life happening on itself'? Of course the body needs to make effort else it would stay in bed all day ;) But look closely, what exactly happens?

Good point. Gonna look into that cause it happens a lot that I stand still and nothing happens by itself.

doesnt that standing still happen by itself?

Eyes open, everything is there, are thoughts immediately there?

No. Thoughts come a bit later. SO yes, seeing and hearing is allready functioning without anyone. The body wakes by itself. Same with hunger, thirsts or yawning.

Right, so put asside all thinking about this, thoughts come, thoughts go, stare the possibility that there is nothing there at all where a self should be right in the face! Is it true?! Is it already true?...

Were you born with thought? Go back to your very first memory.

being born is same as waking up. I can't remember when my first thought popped up, but what I can say is that insanity of to much belief in negative thoughts arose later on. NOt at birth.

possitive or negative thoughts belief or no belief, what believes? isnt the belief only more thought? What is believed is irrelevant here, what is true beyond thoughts in the immediacy of right now is.

What has changed since birth? thought arose, you were there before it did, right? everything arose at once, no identification, this was learned later and became a strong feeling trough conditioning, can you see this?

[Life]

Hi, just wondering how your doing? Whats going on? :)

Also, are you aware of https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/241097475942811/ ? Thought it might be a good idea to take our conversation there, it is a bit more direct than forum, but I'll leave it up to you.

[The Toe]

Hey life,

Saw your pm.

Something changed here. Remember when seeking and doing experiments went on for days a couple of weeks ago?

Well , there was no room left to look anymore or to do self inquiry as it was all ME. There was nothing more to be done as to stop. As I stopped, the identification with thought was less and less strong. Suddenly I could see them pass by, including these experential seeking thoughts. BUt this time there was a stopping. In the stopping, some space showed up to see them as thoughts, not mine.

It becamse so scary these thoughts, that the thought 'YOu might as well restart to believe in thoughts, cause too much silence will kill ya'. popped up and was believed in for a couple of minutes. Somehow, by stopping, thouhgts were thoughts...almost stupid in a way, as listening to a old familiar negative story in the head.

There is still no recognition as being the awareness and seeing totally through doership, but that is fine. Something is pushing me to stopping and relaxing. I can't even make an effort into thinking my way out of this. Let's see what shows up this way? Being into heavy seeking for 6 years is not the way. IT was useful to create such an intentisty in trying and thinking, that by a 'forced' stopping, effortlessness was created to see them as just happening. Still fluctuating between belief and non belief in thoughts. NEvertheless, the identification has never been so weak.

Hope all is well there.

Send you a priv. pm.

take care

javier

[The Toe]

hi,

ask me any question and a almost ready made answer shows up for ´me´ and seeing through the falsness or not , shows up there. I can´t see through the awareness of a BREATHING BUDDHA OF THE NETHERLANDS. Jesus.....I almost want to hang out with ya and see if I can help you out for the breathing which soudns paradoxically.

I will send ya a PM.

In other words..awakening isn´t the right word and still it is. It is almost as awareness stopped being SHY and becomes SHYER and then it has enough of itself and a ´thought ´ pops up which says .......

NOTHINGNESS

[Life]

NOTHINGNESS

Buddhists talk about emptyness, meaning everything known, body, senses, world (known through the senses), emotions, thoughts and consciousness are all impermanent and thus unsatisfactoty and last but not least non self.

Now is this true?

Are you now special? Is there a you to be special or not special, shy or not shy?

Good to hear from you again,

Life :-)

[The Toe]

´ all that there is awareness of is taking place within and as this same awareness´

The awakening is here but not liberation.

As the distinction between awareness and life happening is getting smaller and smaller, sometimes I don´t know what the hell is going on.

There are moments that as you said, I want to hold on moments of bliss and happyness or tears. Then something shows up that shows me ´I´ was not paying attention. See? Then the realisation is that there was no being non-aware as that too was known.

One thing that resonates in me is that while perparing food for me and my brotgher in spain, all came into the right place...ingredients, relacxation, activities of cutting the green leaves of the spinach and the potatoes and the championetjes..mushrooms.

Then the hand hits the table and there comes fear, which is also a subtle form of identification.

so from thoughts to emotions to body and then......nothing.

To see through Emotions was not easy, as by relaxing and letting go of all trying to grasp it with the thoughts, life itself became the teacher. The sun wants to play. The food says ´eat me up and I wil give you my taste of the divine´. My brohter notices something but he sees also that it is getting better with me and at the same he says ´you are living in your own world´. But by talking to him, I can see what he is pointing to , as if sometimes it feels like I am talking to God or myself....as if all what happens is teaching something, but that is still a trap of identication and this too and that.

Not sure if going through the gateless gate is the same as liberation, but there is still a sublte:

- distinction between awarneess and life
- sublte grasping or identification with thoughts, emotions and body (doer)

thanks in advance....

love this site now.

[Life]

Hey mister :)

´ all that there is awareness of is taking place within and as this same awareness´

The awakening is here but not liberation.

the awakening to seeing if there is a self or not is all this forum does, do you see this? Looking further is for later...

As the distinction between awareness and life happening is getting smaller and smaller, sometimes I don´t know what the hell is going on.

There are moments that as you said, I want to hold on moments of bliss and happyness or tears. Then something shows up that shows me ´I´ was not paying attention. See? Then the realisation is that there was no being non-aware as that too was known.

One thing that resonates in me is that while perparing food for me and my brotgher in spain, all came into the right place...ingredients, relacxation, activities of cutting the green leaves of the spinach and the potatoes and the championetjes..mushrooms.

Then the hand hits the table and there comes fear, which is also a subtle form of identification.

Alright, but look does something really show up that shows you this or does seeing things as they are just happen?

Yes, so can you see that things come into the right place without a you?

Well that fear arises is not strange, but is it your fear or just fear? Fear is a sort of protection mechanism, but is it protecting something?

Not sure if going through the gateless gate is the same as liberation, but there is still a sublte:

- distinction between awarneess and life
- sublte grasping or identification with thoughts, emotions and body (doer)

thanks in advance....

- Is there life without awareness? But mostly is there life and you or just life unfolding no matter if there is the thought I or not?
- I-dentification, as long as it is not clearly seen your not thoughts, emotions and body your not through. Which does not mean I-dentification cannot arise at all but once seen it can be seen again and again easily. Meaning thoughts will keep imposing an I out of habbit but thats no problem once seen to be not matching with reality.

[The Toe]

Hi

There is no understanding of non-duality anymore. The mind reached its limit again. I can understand that this site points to the re-discovery of there being no person behind the wheels, inside of a Javier.

There has been great resonance with non dual tapes from Bentinho Masssaro on my mp3 player and the yhoutube new videos of non duality-advaita addes on youtube, while everything was happening in perfect harmony during a couple of days. Now...this clear seeing slipped through my hands. If I touch upon self inquiry again, I don´t know what I am doing, and it really gives me a headache and a feeling of ´fuck it....NOT AGAIN HEY!´

So perhaps, not sure, there is space to see stuff as it is, without having to try to understand it all or look for this I. As all trying to reach enlightenment and look into my room and see God there FAIL, there is nothing that I can do.

Alright, but look does something really show up that shows you this or does seeing things as they are just happen?

good point. seems like when the pivoting goes back to not understanding it, I have to see it back again with clear eyes, till a point is reached where I can´n´t even see straight through the bushes of non duality (1. awareness and 2. things are happening by itself).

Yes, so can you see that things come into the right place without a you?

at the writing of my previous message, YES

Now at this moment, any grapsing for air of enlightenment, is doomed. so NO at this moment.

Well that fear arises is not strange, but is it your fear or just fear?

it is my fear. Been looking for this I in thoughts for so many years and emotions have really been put at the background. Not really investigated into feelings as to what it has to do with this I -thoguht beleived in.

Meaning thoughts will keep imposing an I out of habbit but thats no problem once seen to be not matching with reality.

you are sharp as a non dual knife! Sorry to let you know I ain´t through to the other gate. Perhaps I need to keep on hoping faith and trying to grasp it, since that has been the ongoing theme of javier. DO NOTHING.



I am tired since 2 days. I need to follow a diet (raw juices-vegs and steamed vegtables and soups without salt or sugar or fat) and heal the body first emotionally and psychically. Trying to understand this I is just hopeless. It has drained me off for many times.

hey, great convo. see you around next time whatever nexts time is.

[The Toe]

God doesn´t want to push itself through the Gate that he himself has created in the purpose for JAveir to exist for a little bit more or even for the rest of many many next life times.

:;

[Life]

There is no understanding of non-duality anymore. The mind reached its limit again. I can understand that this site points to the re-discovery of there being no person behind the wheels, inside of a Javier.

Great cause there is nothing to understand! Inside or outside is there a solid lasting self anywhere? Really, dont think that I understand and you dont cause it aint like that at all!

Stop thinking about it and look right this instance, eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, sensing-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tasting-consciousness are they constant? Is that under control? Can you say let it be like this or like that? Just look, dont stress about it, only look, let all concepts you ever heard go for now, even from me, they are irrelevant now and really have a fresh look like your five years old again... Stop relying on thoughts entirely for this and look where is the last thought you had, can you control the thoughts you have? When there are anxious or unwanted thoughts do you choose to not have them?

There has been great resonance with non dual tapes from Bentinho Masssaro on my mp3 player and the yhoutube new videos of non duality-advaita addes on youtube, while everything was happening in perfect harmony during a couple of days. Now...this clear seeing slipped through my hands. If I touch upon self inquiry again, I don´t know what I am doing, and it really gives me a headache and a feeling of ´fuck it....NOT AGAIN HEY!´

So perhaps, not sure, there is space to see stuff as it is, without having to try to understand it all or look for this I. As all trying to reach enlightenment and look into my room and see God there FAIL, there is nothing that I can do.

Is really something there to get to clear seeing by listening to others or let it slip? Stop the darn self-inquiry, asking who you are a million times is not gonna get you to seeing, is there a you to choose to meditate, inquire or do nothing or chase the girls?

Alright, but look does something really show up that shows you this or does seeing things as they are just happen?

good point. seems like when the pivoting goes back to not understanding it, I have to see it back again with clear eyes, till a point is reached where I can´n´t even see straight through the bushes of non duality (1. awareness and 2. things are happening by itself).

Let this non-duality blabla go for now please, is there a you to see trough at all?

Yes, so can you see that things come into the right place without a you?

at the writing of my previous message, YES

Now at this moment, any grapsing for air of enlightenment, is doomed. so NO at this moment.

Whats to enlighten? Can you see that things also come into the wrong place without a you?

Well that fear arises is not strange, but is it your fear or just fear?

it is my fear. Been looking for this I in thoughts for so many years and emotions have really been put at the background. Not really investigated into feelings as to what it has to do with this I -thoguht beleived in.

If emotions havent been looked at how are you so darn sure it is your fear? Look man whether laughing or crying or anger come are you in control of it?

I thought believed in? Look mr what you believe matters not only what is seen does, that I-thought is here too but does it point to anything? Check this now!

Meaning thoughts will keep imposing an I out of habbit but thats no problem once seen to be not matching with reality.

you are sharp as a non dual knife! Sorry to let you know I ain´t through to the other gate. Perhaps I need to keep on hoping faith and trying to grasp it, since that has been the ongoing theme of javier. DO NOTHING.

No im not, who is to grasp? Is there a you to do, not do or undo?

I am tired since 2 days. I need to follow a diet (raw juices-vegs and steamed vegtables and soups without salt or sugar or fat) and heal the body first emotionally and psychically. Trying to understand this I is just hopeless. It has drained me off for many times.

hey, great convo. see you around next time whatever nexts time is.

''Trying to understand this I is just hopeless.'' No shit, there is the assumption there is an I that has to understand, see (trough) something, only this assumption needs to be tested... Is the assumption true? This is not about you or me but only about what the reality is right now!

Alright do whats best for health, all the best mate...

M

[The Toe]

Hi,

I reached a point again that I can´t make anything about non duality, God, awareness, senses, looking, emotions, I, non I, nirvana, etc etc etc. I closed my eyes and looked for this I, and it was me ´looking´ for himself. Screw it!

Thanks for the conversations and perhaps they might be usefull for other seekers who come to liberation unleashed to see through themselves.

What I noticed is that ´looking´ seems to be the only way to see through the I here on this forum. A bit strange as that is putting a rule on how enlightenment can happen. Is there a 1-way-rule of how to see that all is GOD? The current everyday feeling is ´LET GO..DO NOTHING...STOP....YOu can´t think your way out of this I´. So let it be so. I don´t have any hope in this forum, God, Awarnesss, Doership`, senses and LIFE in general.

I don´t wanna waist my energy in hope or faith or something else, call it LIFE or ENERGY or GOD. If THIS pushes me into the direction of having headaches and dropping the body on the ground of misery and not seeing god in a simple wall or sound or itching sensation on my back, so let it be so. I can´t do it anymore as it perpetually reinforces the idea that there is a JAvier who has to see through the idea that there is a javier that seeks for its own nothingness-absence of I.

the story so far:

Javier asked : God, where are you? this..... for 7 or more years....(including meditation since 18 years old)

God answered: JAvier! What a waist of Energy finding me.


The advaita ´It is what it is´ quote doesn´t make the trip.
The advaita ´all is perfect´ quote is stubborn
The advaita quote ´there is no you´ is far reached.

In short, gonna go away for 1 year and STOP this. Really, just trying to get back on a healthy way, become a FIT JAvier again without having to seek like a madman and not understand this.

Perhaps the whole reason why I am still an ´I´ is because there is an ´I´. And that is me.

I see a pc
I hear the traffic sounds
I feel my shirt
I seeked
I stopped


GONE WITH THE WIND

thanks and take care, Life and others who were willing to hear to my nonsense in here.

Enlightenment is for the smart folks in here. I am too stupid for this.

[Life]

This is all a story, an assumption that there is an I needing to look for or trough an I, only the assumption needs to be compared to experience, is it here in reality?

This is not about doing something to achieve that something disappears, so intelligence means jack shit here...

Can see that your expectations of this are not what is offered here, you want something special that fixes all your problems, to become the Buddha, Enlightened whatever that might be, only having an honest look at the way things already are right now without all the concepts and stories is all this forum is about.

This is why in the first reply we ask to stop using other resources during this process. We are all in the same reality, no specialness, there either is a solid separate self or there isn't. So I can tell you how its seen here but that wont make you see it, it really needs actual checking in direct experience beyond thought, where is your last thought, can you show it to me?

In short, gonna go away for 1 year and STOP this. Really, just trying to get back on a healthy way, become a FIT JAvier again without having to seek like a madman and not understand this.

As i said do whatever needed for your health..

Seeking like a madman for what? This only goes on cause you are clinging to being a super seeker, we are asking to test the assumption that there is a seeker in the first place.

Perhaps the whole reason why I am still an ´I´ is because there is an ´I´. And that is me.

I, I, I, me, I, I, I, I, I, your assuming it is there for you and the blues and reds here have lost their I on the path, this is nonsense, again it is existing or it isn't, we say it is just a label like car for all of its parts together or the weather for all the atmospheric conditions, is the there really a thing 'car' separate from the parts and their function? Is there a thing like weather beside the conditions and sensations of it?

I see a pc, I hear the traffic sounds, I feel my shirt, I seeked, I stopped

Seeing a pc, hearing traffic sounds, feeling of cotton on skin, seeking, stopping seeking, your sentence feels incredie more real but is it? Sesame street or Santa claus also did till you saw they were not.

Enlightenment is for the smart folks in here. I am too stupid for this.

No one is or was enlightened ever!

Take it easy,

Life

[The Toe]

Hi Life,

I stopped for a couple of months and then somehow I seeked again. I still don't see God nowhere, as all stuff or glimpses of the past won't do right now. The only thing that is happening at this moment that there is a JAvier typing this. I cannot fool myself at this moment, despite of the hunderds of little moments of 'happening by itself' and seeing oneness in a itching sensation.

Are you available again and can we take this very, very slowly. When I look into direct experience, I am an I trying to look, which distracts me. It gives me headaches and stress, which is good, because it baiscally forces me to stop thinking so much.

What is seen there, is not seen here now. I cannot see what is happening there or how God looks like. The words 'It is THIS' won't do. I have a notion that the I can NEVER experience Oneness or God or whatever.

here are my struggles:

1) I have been looking into senses lately during the whole day. Not only 1 hour but during the whole day. I noticed that 'water' doesn't contain taste. Only when I put the whole damed thing in my mouth, there is taste. So taste depends on the tongue. So the taste of water is happening there downunder, at the tip of the tongue. And it seems that there is an I who sees that taste happen. Same with itching sensations or touch. No coldness in doors....only when hand is laid upon it, there is coldness. So feeling coldness is happening at the hand's level. That is the touching itself. Right there. And I sit in the brain seeing that. Not sure how to explain it. And then I look into thought claiming something like 'I taste the water' and 'I hear sound from an airplane outside'. If the tasting is made out of taste of water, what is this I? It feels like saying 'I taste the tasting of water'. So I don't understand awareness, which leaves me with no option than to perhaps believe in that thought. And there is an attention which awakens to itself and goes to the itching sensation right after it happens. Is this awareness? I guess not, as that too is an object.

2) I cannot find what I really am in an object. So awareness doesn't show up or I cannot become it or understand it or feel it out. Therefor, the whole awarneess thing is gobbly gook to me. it feels that it even doesn't exist. I can only find taste of water, coldness of door, sounds coming out of a speaker.

Sometimes I say to myself ' now you are not going to know what is happening in the body'. I try to do something without me knowing it, like moving my foot. But I know exactly what is happenign even if I do nothing.


Sometimes I am caught up in thought. Sometimes not. I am looking for how it feels to be awarenesss and not an I. It totally sets me off of this present moment.

take care and perhaps see you here!

Sorry to be a hardcore seeker, but if 'Oneness' wants me to experience it, there is no other way.