Understanding the link between thoughts and (no)self

[Rachael1610]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I think I am becoming aware that my self ('Rachael') is made up of thoughts that reference a reality - a reality that is also somewhat made of thoughts? I notice that I started the previous sentence with 'I think', which perhaps means that even my understanding that there is no real self is, too, a thought. Is there anything outside of thoughts?

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like to see that there is no real self. It seems there has been glimpses of this realisation but not a full seeing. For example, I've had experiences of merging with another person, and dancing/walking without a 'person' being there. These experiences usually last a matter of seconds. I guess on the one hand I want to prolong these glimpses but I am also quite scared of them as I wonder if I would be able to function if they became a permanent state.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I have started learning about the fetters so perhaps someone could guide me within this framework, but I am also open to other approaches. I suppose I expect unconditional compassion for what is arising but I don't know what to expect really. I have a sense that I may hold a lot of shame so having help with this might be an expectation that I carry. I think an underlying core belief I hold is 'Stay away from me - I will hurt you and/or you will hurt me'. Maybe this needs to be handled as part of the process.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have had a meditation practice for around 4 years, on and off. I practice Rupert Spira's yoga meditations, and have read Angelo Dillulo's book, Awake - it's your turn. I have practiced watching thoughts as per his suggestion, and it seemed to create a shift in me (though I find it hard to do at times). My mum died shortly after I realised that I am a string of thoughts. I do silent walking meditation every day. I practice transparent communication and regularly attend processing groups within the Thomas Huebl framework. I try to be in silence more often but it is something I struggle with.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Noro]

Hello Rachael 1610, Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.
My name is Rowena and I am happy to be your guide. What would you like me to call you?

1. Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

2. Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/

and "Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. Please make sure that you are subscribed to your thread. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “Subscribe topic’. Click on it once. (To be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show “Unsubscribe topic”.)

6. Please answer all questions individually, not in a bundle, as this will assist us both in having a clear dialogue. Also it is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

7. When replying to a question it makes it a lot easier to follow the enquiry using the 'Quote Function' to highlight the questions and answers. Here's a video link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Finally, for the sake of the intensity of the inquiry, please let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. And I will do so as well.

Please let me know that you are OK with all the above and then we can start.

Best wishes,

Rowena

[Rachael1610]

Hi Rowena,

Thank you so much for your reply. It seems to have come at a timely moment.

I confirm I am ready to begin and can reply daily.

Thank you,
Rachael

[Noro]

Hello Rachael,

Great to hear back from you so promptly. Just to let you know that I am on CEST time zone. What time zone are you in?

STARTING THE ENQUIRY: EXPECTATIONS

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open. Expectations of any kind, whether of eternal bliss or of some state that brings up fear can prevent clear seeing of no self.

1. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What seems to be missing in your life right now?


Warmly,

Rowena

[Rachael1610]

Hi Rowena,

Thank you so much for your reply. My time zone is MDT. I have pasted my replies below. It felt kind of difficult to access all of my expectations, but this is what came to me...

1. What do you think will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?
I suppose I imagine I will be free from suffering, or at least there will be space around my suffering because my suffering won’t feel personal. I imagine I will be able to let down my defences and that no one will be able to hurt me – especially with their words and projections. I will be ‘superior’ to those who have hurt me in the past, and I will be ‘above’ their ability to hurt me. It will be the ultimate F*** you to those who I felt diminished and excluded by. I will be able to go out into the world and speak to others freely, without feeling socially anxious. I will be able to be spontaneous, and life will feel smoother. I will be able to freely allow myself to flow with action rather than worry about what needs to be done (procrastinate). I believe I will be living in a truer reality and thus making the most of my life. I will gain a fuller experience of life.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?
I will be peaceful, happy, and joyful a lot of the time, and if harder emotions do arise, I’ll navigate them with grace and a quiet background of peace. I also expect certain family members to feel less inclined to bully me because I’ll know something they don’t (and there won’t be an ego there to feel hurt by them anyway). It will be easier for me to love others and feel connected with them. I won’t have feelings of frustration and anxiety. I will find energy to work in a meaningful and sustainable way.

3. What do you want not to happen?
I don’t want this whole thing to be a lie. I don’t want to have invested my time and trust in narratives that are incorrect, misunderstood, or used to prop up someone else’s ego/bank account. I don’t want my emotions, actions, or behaviours to become out of control in a way that could expose that I am shameful or horrible deep down. If I lose my self-monitoring capacity, I worry that others will see something bad about me or reject me. That said, I am so tired of self-monitoring.
Come to think of it, I guess I might also be scared of merging too much with others, taking on their emotions or there being no boundaries between us.

4. What are you hoping for?
I am sincerely hoping to discover truths that I haven’t discovered yet.

5. What seems to be missing in your life right now?
Work or self-employment that is meaningful, sustainable, and mostly enjoyable. I have taken different approaches to ‘work’ throughout my life, and it feels like a lot of ego identity is tied up there. I guess there is a hope that seeing through self would allow me to have a more authentic relationship with work/creativity in a way that is actually sustainable. I hope that is clear, I can elaborate if needed.


Best regards,
Rachael

[Noro]

Hello Rachael,

Thank you for sharing your hopes and expectations regarding this process. We will be able to revisit what you have written at a later date once the inquiry process is well underway.

4. What are you hoping for?

I am sincerely hoping to discover truths that I haven’t discovered yet.

This is a great response!


HOW TO LOOK FOR THE NO SELF IN THE EXERCISES

There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing, and seeing that there is nothing.

If you can’t see for yourself directly, you cannot describe what you see in your own words.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:


COLORED SOCKS
If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

DIRECT OR ACTUAL EXPERIENCE IS
Seeing - colors, shapes,
Hearing - sounds
Feeling or Sensing (without naming emotion as this is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
and
Cognizing or Thinking (but not the content of thinking. Thinking about content is just more thinking and diverts you from the direct experience)

Hopefully you are clear about this, if not, let me know if you would like any further clarification.

Direct Experience is not conceptual, or made of thought.
Experiencing happens before thought arrives to describe or explain it.
The moment we attempt to communicate experience we introduce concepts. We then respond or identify with those concepts. Then that experience of responding gives birth to more stories (concepts) to which we respond and so on…


DIRECT EXPERIENCE OF DAILY ACTIVITIES

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities as simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of the experiencing of a cup of coffee

Seeing a cup; simply= image/color
Smelling coffee; simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup; simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee; simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee; simply = sound
Thinking about drinking the coffee; simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above. The point is to learn the difference between Actual / Direct Experience and the content of thought, which we made up.

Post several of your own observations in a list exactly like the one above, please, using the same word forms of your direct experiencing.

Best wishes,

Rowena

[Rachael1610]

Hi Rowena,

I have been trying to notice the difference between direct experience and actual experience. It seems to be most difficult when it comes to 'thoughts', whereas it seems a bit easier for me to experience sounds as direct.

Having coffee on the balcony:
Seeing some trees and people running by -images and colours of “trees and people”
Smelling the air – simply smell
Feeling my “feet” on the ground – sensations
Tasting “coffee” – taste
Hearing “birds” and “cars” – simply sounds
Thinking about it being a lovely morning – just a thought.

Observing the river on a walk:
Seeing colours of blue, white, red, changing and merging – simply seeing
smell of water and driftwood – simply smelling
Feeling my legs on the ground and my hands on the grass – simply sensations
Hearing the seeming sound of construction – simply sounds
Thinking about what I have to do in the afternoon – just a thought.

Sitting at my desk and writing
Seeing the colours and patterns of my laptop and notebook – simply seeing
Smell of conditioner on my hair – simply smelling
Feeling my bottom on the seat – warm sensation
Hearing the washing machine – simply sound
Thinking about sitting here writing – a thought

Thank you,
Rachael

[Noro]

Hi Rachael,

I have been trying to notice the difference between direct experience and actual experience. It seems to be most difficult when it comes to 'thoughts', whereas it seems a bit easier for me to experience sounds as direct.

Hearing/sound is a great place to start with direct experience. The visual field also if you can let go of the labels, which you did in the last two practices. Think of it this way.... a small child that has not learned the names of anything will see a kaleidoscope of raw visual data, it wouldn't even know about colors or shapes! This is the direction we are going with DE (direct experience). Once the raw sense data (visual or sounds) starts getting named or labeled, interpretation arises naturally and overlays the raw sense data with names, memories etc. of what is known or recognized. So it is natural for it to be more difficult when it comes to 'thoughts', not to be pulled into a thought train of more thoughts; we can so easily get 'lost' in thought!

This is a great exercise to keep doing daily.


APPLE EXERCISE

Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can go online and find a photo of an apple or use a real apple.

When looking at an apple in the usual way, we are looking at something in the visual field, and we will see that there's color and a shape. Then thinking comes very quickly afterwards with a thought saying "apple" and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

In actual or direct experience we are simply seeing, and the simple act of seeing does not include any interpretations or descriptions. Those are overlayed through thought onto the visual experience which is totally non-conceptual.

However, as a concession, for the sake of communicating we can allow a minimum of thought content, in order to do this exercise; so we can say that colors and shapes are seen, and thinking is also seen but without any thought content.

Actual (direct) experience does not refer to thoughts (including labels, interpretations and descriptions) about something.

Actual experience refers to the raw data of sound, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thinking arising, but not its content.

So, as you do this apple exercise, is there really an 'apple' here or only color and shape and a thought about 'apple'?

Can an actual 'apple' be found in direct experience?

While thoughts or descriptions are known, what they describe can't be found in direct experience.

Please let me know if this is clear for you.


Warmly,
Rowena