I need a second go at clear seeing please

[Vit1]

Hi! I went though the LU process 2.5 years ago but I feel strongly I need another go as this "I" issue remains
unresolved despite much inquiring. Would it be possible to get another guide?

My username is Vit1

Thanks in advance.
Vito

[davjak]

Hi! I went though the LU process 2.5 years ago but I feel strongly I need another go as this "I" issue remains
unresolved despite much inquiring. Would it be possible to get another guide?

Hey there Vito,
What seems to be going on? What is still in the way? I am here if you would like to have another go at this.
Best,
David

[Vit1]

Hi David,

I appreciate your reply and your time. Yes, I would love your help. Thank you.

What seems to be going on? There is still this cloud of I-ness overlaying much of all experience. Doubt might be strong and obscuring any recognition that may have happened in the past... however shallow. Just finished a 7 day silent retreat and done much self inquiry, so mind is fairly sharp. Can't see any I / me anywhere, but the concept appears after every breath, every seeing, every hearing, every etc.. Am I supposed to keep looking for the "invisible unicorn" until something clicks? Or is this the wrong approach and should "I" be looking for something else?

Thanks again for your time.
Vito

[davjak]

Am I supposed to keep looking for the "invisible unicorn" until something clicks? Or is this the wrong approach and should "I" be looking for something else?

Let me ask you this Vito, the decisions or choices to do a silent retreat or start another thread on LU, is there someone who decided or chose to do these things?

Right down to the appearance of thoughts or apparent shifts of attention, in anything at all that seems to be happening, is there anyone or anything that makes it happen?

Is there any question at all what I 'should' do or what I don't do, or is there only what seems to happen?

Is there anything whatsoever under the control of an individual?

[davjak]

Am I supposed to keep looking for the "invisible unicorn" until something clicks? Or is this the wrong approach and should "I" be looking for something else?

Let me ask you this Vito, the decisions or choices to do a silent retreat or start another thread on LU, is there someone who decided or chose to do these things?

Right down to the appearance of thoughts or apparent shifts of attention, in anything at all that seems to be happening, is there anyone or anything that makes it happen?

Is there any question at all what I 'should' do or what I don't do, or is there only what seems to happen?

Is there anything whatsoever under the control of an individual?

[davjak]

Am I supposed to keep looking for the "invisible unicorn" until something clicks? Or is this the wrong approach and should "I" be looking for something else?

Let me ask you this Vito, the decisions or choices to do a silent retreat or start another thread on LU, is there someone who decided or chose to do these things?

Right down to the appearance of thoughts or apparent shifts of attention, in anything at all that seems to be happening, is there anyone or anything that makes it happen?

Is there any question at all what I 'should' do or what I don't do, or is there only what seems to happen?

Is there anything whatsoever under the control of an individual?

[Vit1]

Let me ask you this Vito, the decisions or choices to do a silent retreat or start another thread on LU, is there someone who decided or chose to do these things?
Response: Can't say for sure as it was in the past. But on reading this question the thought-feeling I come up. The feeling entails a pressure or tension behind the eyes.


Right down to the appearance of thoughts or apparent shifts of attention, in anything at all that seems to be happening, is there anyone or anything that makes it happen?
Response: No, each morsel of experience triggers the next object e.g. thought, feeling, etc.. Although it "feels like" some decision is made, there is no agent making this happen.

Is there any question at all what I 'should' do or what I don't do, or is there only what seems to happen?
Response: No, the flow of events and objects in awareness just occurs naturally, and the "sense of I" along with it.

Is there anything whatsoever under the control of an individual?
Response: No, just new events triggering new action/experiences/events. It's all superfast so there seems to be continuation and a common thread, probably the sense of self concept / doer / listener / watcher lies there.

P.S. I didn't receive any email notification of your response, just came to the forum post and saw 3 of the same replies from you. Probably some issue with the forum system.

Thank you for your time. V.

[davjak]

is there someone who decided or chose to do these things?
Response: Can't say for sure as it was in the past. But on reading this question the thought-feeling I come up. The feeling entails a pressure or tension behind the eyes.

Without any speculation, guessing or imagining...
Stand in front of large, well-lit mirror and notice thoughts, where exactly are they appearing? Are they in you? Are they out in the room? Do they have a location? Is there anything you can say about where thoughts are located? And where are thoughts being seen from?

Similarly, with the tension behind the eyes that you mention, still looking in the mirror, is it true that sensations can be located 'behind the eyes'? Where is 'behind the eyes'? What sensory data is used to make that determination? Is 'behind the eyes' true?

Sitting in a chair with eyes closed, where is the border between body and chair? Can it be known that feet exist? Can it be known for certain that I exist? Based on what? Can it be known for certain that anything exists? Does it all have to be interpreted into existence? Does certainty exist?

What is missing that needs to happen?

P.S. I didn't receive any email notification of your response, just came to the forum post and saw 3 of the same replies from you. Probably some issue with the forum system.

Yes, I didn't get a notification either. The site is having issues. Maybe bot attack.
Don't forget to click 'Quote' after you copy and paste the question you are responding to.

[Vit1]

Without any speculation, guessing or imagining...

Stand in front of large, well-lit mirror and notice thoughts, where exactly are they appearing? Are they in you? Are they out in the room? Do they have a location? Is there anything you can say about where thoughts are located? And where are thoughts being seen from?

Thoughts are nowhere specific to be found. They are in me. They are not outside me. There is no definite location but they are available in awareness.

Similarly, with the tension behind the eyes that you mention, still looking in the mirror, is it true that sensations can be located 'behind the eyes'? Where is 'behind the eyes'? What sensory data is used to make that determination? Is 'behind the eyes' true?

The "tension behind eyes" is a sensation dense and forefront in awareness, but the "location" is actually an image, hence thought, showing a shape and map of the surrounding structure (imagined). The sensory data used here is a strong dense feeling which immediately triggers an image/map of the eyes and area behind the eyes + vocalisation (that says it's behind the eyes). Sensation + thought are used to make the determination.

Sitting in a chair with eyes closed, where is the border between body and chair? Can it be known that feet exist? Can it be known for certain that I exist? Based on what? Can it be known for certain that anything exists? Does it all have to be interpreted into existence? Does certainty exist?

Definitely no clear border.
A feeling/vibration is there, then the label "feet" comes up.
Yes, I exist in the sense of there being an awareness of reality and seeming objects therein. But objects are created through/by images and verbalisations.
No, I can't find certainty anywhere I look. E.g. when looking at right hand moving, it just moves and not certain who or what does the moving.

What is missing that needs to happen?

Not sure what you're asking here or where you're going with this.

Thanks again for your time. V

[davjak]

Hey there Vito. Sorry for the delay. I am just seeing this due to no notification. I'll have a look and respond soon. David

[Vit1]

No problem. Thank you David.
V

[davjak]

the "location" is actually an image, hence thought, showing a shape and map of the surrounding structure (imagined).

Good. A tension sensation triggers mental modelling of the sensation and surrounding structures, and it's just imagination. Maybe this is a template for what goes on pervasively to create a map/model that the person takes to be a fixed, objective reality? Can you see any other instances where imagination is filling in the blanks and Vito is taking it for fixed, objective reality?

Thoughts are nowhere specific to be found. They are in me. They are not outside me.

Could it be the other way around? Rather than thoughts being in you, you are in thoughts... as an idea, just a self-thought? Is it that a self is just thoughts OF self, feelings OF a self, feeling LIKE a self, but never an actual self, which is why it's looked for but never found?

Remember? "The "tension behind eyes" is a sensation dense and forefront in awareness, but the "location" is actually an image, hence thought, showing a shape and map of the surrounding structure (imagined)."

Imagination fills something in where there is a gap, and the person believes it, like a convincing dream. Could this be going on with the "self-sense"?

Definitely no clear border. (between body and chair)

Good, no imposed imagination here.

Yes, I exist in the sense of there being an awareness of reality and seeming objects therein.

Is there awareness OF reality, or is there only what seems to be the case, and that's all that can ever be said? Can something get outside reality to be aware of it? What is always and already, when nothing is imagined to be standing apart observing, analyzing, questioning? Isn't it simply THIS as it is, what seems to be happening, however it is? What is missing? What else is needed if there is only what seems apparent? Is there anything outside this?

Thanks again for your time. V

You're most welcome.

[Vit1]

Good. A tension sensation triggers mental modelling of the sensation and surrounding structures, and it's just imagination. Maybe this is a template for what goes on pervasively to create a map/model that the person takes to be a fixed, objective reality? Can you see any other instances where imagination is filling in the blanks and Vito is taking it for fixed, objective reality?

Yes, another example is with breathing. When breathing in, there is a mental image coming up, and a bit less when breathing out. It's often constant but sometimes there are gaps in the I-thought. These images or impressions of a self, or self thoughts arise in very close association with this experience. This self thought or impression seems to come with a strong sense of belief attached to it, kind of like automatic belief or self authenticated. Very sticky.

Could it be the other way around? Rather than thoughts being in you, you are in thoughts... as an idea, just a self-thought? Is it that a self is just thoughts OF self, feelings OF a self, feeling LIKE a self, but never an actual self, which is why it's looked for but never found?
Remember? "The "tension behind eyes" is a sensation dense and forefront in awareness, but the "location" is actually an image, hence thought, showing a shape and map of the surrounding structure (imagined)."
Imagination fills something in where there is a gap, and the person believes it, like a convincing dream. Could this be going on with the "self-sense"?

Yes, this one definitely touched a cord: "self" is really just thoughts of self. Each "I am" thought is singular and follows the next one. Together they feel like a convincing dream.

Is there awareness OF reality, or is there only what seems to be the case, and that's all that can ever be said? Can something get outside reality to be aware of it? What is always and already, when nothing is imagined to be standing apart observing, analyzing, questioning? Isn't it simply THIS as it is, what seems to be happening, however it is? What is missing? What else is needed if there is only what seems apparent? Is there anything outside this?

No, there isn't awareness OF reality. It's only awareness, then the mental overlay implies objects, shapes, distance observed and observed, outer reality, etc... Always and already is this sense of knowing or awareness. I don't do or have awareness, it's already here. Not sure what's missing, but the content of thoughts and images is hypnotic and then carries on, or sticks to the next thought. The next thought carries the same charge.
What else is needed? Peace is needed. But despite seeing all this, there is no peace.

Thanks for the help.

[davjak]

This self thought or impression seems to come with a strong sense of belief attached to it, kind of like automatic belief or self authenticated. Very sticky.

What is left when self thoughts are absent, forgotten about or not noticed?

Yes, this one definitely touched a cord: "self" is really just thoughts of self. Each "I am" thought is singular and follows the next one. Together they feel like a convincing dream.

OK, if self (or me) is only a concept OF self, which would make it no different from a chair thought, can there be anyone in control? Is there any controller of anything, ever, someone who makes thought or experience be as it is?

It would have to be outside experience and prior to experience to make experience happen. So, the question is, is there a separate doer or controller of ANYTHING?

If a self is only thoughts OF a self, is it the same for control or someone who controls?

I don't do or have awareness, it's already here.

This that is already here as experience, is there anything outside this? Where would outside be? Is there someone who "has" experience or awareness? If no, what is left?

[davjak]

And p.s., I want to add one note here and a few other questions for you to consider at this point (and respond to):

You've mentioned two examples where imagination fills in the gaps of "what is here" or "out there", i.e. what's happening, namely, 1) a location and surrounding structure where thoughts are occurring and 2) mental images of what is doing the breathing (correct me if I misrepresent).

But isn't this really just scratching the surface of what is going on in terms of what is being superimposed by imagination? Isn't EVERY word and thought pure abstract representation? Can you name something that is not abstract representation?