No self?

[Who registered]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that there Is no self at least in the experience level. I cannot find It but i find only emotions or scientific answers. i also think that mind cannot explain the mind and the self exists but cannot be pointed.

What are you looking for at LU?
Various thing. Breaking the concept of self, curious to see if thats True or not and what happens when I drop It and if.
At the end, reduce suffering and bad mental states Is the end goal. Have uncontionated happiness.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Breaking the sense of self or Discover that the self exists. At the end, see the one Truth. And do It quickly because Life Is short. Also to have real understand from my experience and not from third party.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Tried vipassana and other meditation techniques. Feels they were to random and to slow.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Kaiho]

Hello, who registered,

What would you like me to call you?

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed! My name is Liam, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

As your guide, I’ll give you exercises to help you investigate whether there is a separate self. Your task is to look directly at your sensory experience in the here and now and report on your experience without input from memory, thinking, and imagination. Try to approach these exercises with “beginner’s mind,” setting aside everything you know about science, philosophy, and spiritual teachings.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQs of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

I'll type questions for you to answer in blue to make it easier for you to see them. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. This will make our dialogue easier to follow. Please watch the video below to learn how to use the quote function.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

The website goes down at times. To avoid losing your work, you may find it helpful to copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there, and then copy and paste them to your thread.

Let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I’ll do so as well. What time zone are in? I’m in Portugal, which is in the Western European Time Zone.

Let me know if you have any questions about this introductory message. If everything sounds ok, we can start.

Love,
Liam

[Who registered]

Hi Liam, First of all thanks you very much. I appreciate a lot. You can call me Andy.

Meanwhile, I did exercises myself and had a shift.

Im sure the self can be only found in toughts and I stopped beliving in things like self responsability or Freedom of choices. Of course, Im still a responsabile person and I still do the exact things of before dropping the concept of permanent self.

The shift happened 31 of August and I had 3 days of bliss followed by a switch in reality. Everything Is the same but everything changed.

However I still have experciences of selfing when for example I experience anxiety. These are very short Moments.

Still I want to verify, if possible, my accomplishments.

[Kaiho]

Hi Andy,

Glad to hear that you’ve experienced a shift. Here are some questions we use to check. Depending on your answers, I may ask additional questions or give exercises to help deepen or clarify the shift. Otherwise, I’ll ask other guides to read your responses and make sure seeing is as clear as possible. Please answer what’s true in direct experience now, not from conviction, recent memory, or any “ideal” answer.

1) Is there a separate entity—a self, I, me—at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

With love,
Liam

[Who registered]

1) Is there a separate entity—a self, I, me—at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
The "I" can be only found in toughts. So there Is no "I" that can be found.
It wasnt there ever. Before there was an illusion of permanenence fave by toughts.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of self Is the illusion of beliving there Is a sense of separate self. A doer, an observer or something similar. It cannot be found in the direct experience and its Just a tought that , for example, put ownership as and action Is done. A tought by definition doesnt have a substance.
Intellectual speaking: I think its something thats start in early Age for protection and for maxizing our possibilities of living and build narrative. But these are only speculations.

Now "I" see the sense of I as a tought exactly like when I think about and Apple or another thing. Its a tought that Just happen. No real I can be found.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

In the last 20 days everything was the same but everything was Totally different. In the First 3/4 days I had a bliss that I knew It was temporaly. The following days where as all others day except that default mind space was more in peace and I toughts day by day stopped to come in experience as It was useless and also "stupid" to think about an I anymore. So they came less in experience. There was no I to blame for and a lot of toughts didnt Born anymore and if Born, they are quickly dismessed by the system as "that make no sense".Regret, guilt arent Born anymore. There Is no One that can regret.

Also I know what to do to end suffering, as I can see clearly the desire/aversion coming to experience. In the same time, I know there Is nothing to do. Its like I am in a train where the system Is autoanalyzing the system. Its all autopilot now.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
To see the there was no One that can Plan what the content of next toughts Will be.
5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.
Decision happen. Later a "ownership of decisione" tought Is Born and put on the decision. "Andy did that", but no One did that. Decision Just happen.
Describe intention & give examples from experience.
The system elaborates the intention , produces sensation and toughts, but intention are Born from the same Place of decisions. No One produces the intentions.
Describe free will & give examples from experience.
Free Will doesnt not exists. Free Will implies Someone that stop and decides what to do. Doing is happening. Labels are added by toughts. Free Will Is a concept that can be only be found as a tought.
Describe choice & give examples from experience.
Choise happens. Toughts add labels to It. Similar to decision/intent/and free Will.
Describe control & give examples from experience.
There Is no One that control anything. Things happens by itself. Control happens in the toughts for giving the illusion of having some sort of Power. There Is no One that can cintrol anything.
What makes things happen? How does it work?
Things happen by itself. Like toughts. There Is no One that decide the toughts. Things Just happen. From void.
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Im not responsible of anything. This doesnt mean I Will go around doing Crazy thing. Exactly its like before the illusion of the self. There Is not responsabile that can be found.
6) Anything to add?
Thank you

[Kaiho]

Hi Andy,

This seems like a clear shift! I will let a few other guides look as well.

With love,
Liam

[Kaiho]

Hi Andy,

Thanks for your patience! A guide, L, had questions:

Things Just happen. From void.

If we speak about the Void as a thing, we can use this sentence. But in your direct experience, is there a witnesser of the void?
And who do all bodies belong to?

With love,
Liam

[Who registered]

No there Is no witnesser, Just another tought that Say In the Witnesser. Toughts create duality and separation.

In direct experience, there Is no owner of no body. Ownership can be found only in toughts.

[Kaiho]

Great. The guide, L, had a followup question:

In direct experience, there Is no owner of no body. Ownership can be found only in toughts.

Is there a body that is living on its own?

[Who registered]

Hi Liam, thank you again.

In direct experience body can exist only when a tought think about It.
Life Is happening by itself
Any kind of separation Is found only in tought but these have no substantiality in direct experience.

[Who registered]

So to directly answer the question. No there Is no body. Is another tought that Say "I end here"

[Who registered]

Also I want to clarify. I see the illusion but I would lie if I say that I feel already "One" with no separation all the time.
I can see the illusion however. But I still perceive the difference between subject object when "I" look at things for example.
In the fetters model I would Say that I can clearly see the illusion of the ego toughts.

[Who registered]

Is there any edit functionality? Im spamming ahahhaha

What i meant before with separation between object and subject Is when I look at a chair, there Is a mental fabrication that Is Building the chain in the mind.

[Kaiho]

Thank you, Andy. I appreciate your answers, and I think you have seen clearly. I'm just waiting for one other guide to confirm, and I'm not sure what time zone he's in.

Also I want to clarify. I see the illusion but I would lie if I say that I feel already "One" with no separation all the time.
I can see the illusion however. But I still perceive the difference between subject object when "I" look at things for example.
In the fetters model I would Say that I can clearly see the illusion of the ego toughts.

It would be very unusual for you to say that you felt "One with everything" (no separation) all the time. We see through the belief in a separate self, but the conventional sense of separation does not completely go away. One still knows how to feed oneself by putting food in one's mouth, etc. Is that clear?

[Who registered]

Yes Super clear. Thanks you Liam. Yes also in my view the shift happened. Im sure. But Always worth to double check.