Feeling Trapped in the I thought

[SundanceMuc]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Freedom from the I. I know there is no inherent I, no Thinker, no Doer, no Decider, only thinking, doing, deciding etc.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for help seeing through the I - thought. Until now i tried everything alone. Ineed somebody to give me advice and to push me over the edge. Also i want to connect with other people to not to be allone in this process.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I am not sure - i am afraid i will never go through the gate. I read the gateless gatecrashers and it didnt clicked with me. I know the truth - that there is no I, but i still identify. Maybe i am overthinking to much, maybe its fear of loosing contoll (even i know there is no contoller) or maybe there is to much wanting and tension. At least i want to have contact because i am totally alone here with my search and the want to understand life.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I read a lot of books (Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie, Course of miracels, buddh. / mindfulness teachings), saw lots of youtubes from Rupert Spira and other nonduality teachers. Did 3 meditation Retreats, MBSR Course, but i ve to confess i dont have a daily spiritual practice (away from hearing talks from teachers) in Meditation or else.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[Anastacia42]

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

Yes, thinking at all will not help. Neither does overthinking. See my sig quote.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[SundanceMuc]

Hello Stacy,
And thank you so much for guiding me!!
I am a little bit overwhelmed cause i didnt expected a guide so fast. I applied for the german forum in july (where is only 1 person guiding) and switched only a couple of hours before to the english forum - and there you are! Its amazing!! :-)
One thing before i start answering your questions: i am german and i ve the fear-thought my english is not good enough to participate. So bear with me if i write somewhat not right. I would ask if i dont understand a question or a remark.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Please call me Sundance (great to ve a new name) and iam in the CET timezone.

Lets start! I am very excited!! :-))

Yes i read the disclaimer & the FAQ & the guidelines when i applied and now again. I agree with all.

Here are my answers to your questions:

How will life change?

Its hard to imagine cause i have no personal experience. Life will hopefully be easier with the clarity of direct experiencing. Thoughts probably wont be taken so heavy.

How will you change?

I will life live in crispy direct experience. I will still have thoughts but no more beliving in them so much. I will lose fears and be open for things to come.

What will be different?

Everything will be the same but the view on all things will be different. I will be here & now and not living in the past & future. More aliveness probably.

What is missing?

Hmm...dont know what could be missed. The "I" for sure not.

Thats it!
Thank you again for taking your time for me! Iam very grateful!

Love
Sundance

[Anastacia42]

Very good, Sundance.

Your English is fine. Use Google translate or something if you need it.

Your expectations are fairly reasonable.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

Loving,

[SundanceMuc]

Thank you, Stacy!

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

Immediately a lot of thoughts arise:
But who has done all the decisions i made in my life?
Who is looking for the purpose of life since so many years?
Who wants to be a good mother, worker, person (without ever being enough)?
I try to grasp it but cant really.

I feel sadness.

Dont i need an I to find a motivation to do something?

I had a difficult day. A job interview in the morning didnt go as well as i expected. A lot of thoughts like “i need a job”, “everybody is working, i also need to do something”.
I took a walk, sat on a bench at a smal lake… thoughts filled my head.
Your question came in my mind. No feelings appeared. I cant imagine what it means to live without “me”, without a story. Would i handle my job situation different or feel better anyway?

When i went home i had the urge to eat lots of chips and chocolate to fill up my inner void.
But i sat down to meditate/ concentrate on my breath…and soon i felt calmer.
Probably it would be similar without a me-story - calm, peaceful.

Sorry if i wrote to much and not only straight answered the question.

Love,
Sundance

[Anastacia42]

Hi Sundance

There's ALREADY no "self." You have been operating without a self your entire life. You just didn't know it.

Sadness comes when we think we want something different than reality as it is now.

took a walk, sat on a bench at a smal lake…

Excellent!

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



Loving,

[SundanceMuc]

Hi Stacy,

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification

.

No, its absolutely clear!

I felt a kind of relief when i read it.
(The remarkable thing is, i read the discription of direkt experience several times before, but it makes such a difference you wrote it exactly to me and today!)
Something was shaken up and i understood i need to practice the direct looking.

Thank you! :-)

Love,
Susanne

[Anastacia42]

Good. Here's your chance to practice:


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[SundanceMuc]

Hello Stacy,

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please

This is my list:

Brushing my teeth - sensation of the brush
tasting toothpaste - taste
Smelling mint - smell
Sound of brushing - sound
rinse out mouth with water - taste
Water running - sound
feeling water on my hand & in my mouth - sensation
Seeing water & toothpaste in the sink - image/color
Creaming my hands - sensations
smelling the cream - smell
Car drives outside - sound
Ticking of my Kitchen clock - sound
Looking on the phonescreen - image/ color
Thoughts about what to prepare for tomorrow - thoughts

Today i went with a friend on a day hike in the mountains:

Thinking about the weather today - thoughts
Checking wheather forecast, looking on the phonescreen - image/ color
Type SMS to my friend - sensations
radio playing - sound
Cycling to trainstation, feeling the motion - sensations
Looking on the scenery outside the train window - image/color
Thinking about job - thoughts
Nervousness in my stomach - sensation
Sitting in a seat - feeling
Eating a cheesebread - taste
Going on the trail - sensation
Seeing stones & rocks on the trail - image/ color
Talking to my friend - thought & sound
Cow on the hiking trail - image/ color
Stroking the cow - sensation
Going over a dry meadow - smell
Thinking about the last hiking trip - thought
Sun on my skin - sensation
Sweat running over my face - sensation
Salty sweat at my lips - taste
Labeling - thought

Especially thoughts are so normal and always running, what makes them inconspicuous.

Love
Sundance

[Anastacia42]

Good. Very close. Just this one:

Brushing my teeth - sensation of the brush

Do you see the mistake there?

Then here is the next one:

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving

[SundanceMuc]

Hi Stacy,

Do you see the mistake there?

Yes, i can see the mistake. It's only sensation, not sensation of the brush.
I am actually pleased i ve done the mistake. This made it even clearer to me.

Mind Labeling Experience
I am sitting on the couch.
I am feeling the blanket over my bones.
I am hearing a car starting outside.
I am hearing the rain.
I feel a tension in my head.
I am seeing my phone.
I am feeling a heaviness in my chest.
I am hearing the doves coo.
I am seeing the furnitures in the room.
I am feeling an itching at the skin of my head.
I am feeling the movement of my breath in my chest and belly.
I am thinking about yesterday.
I am feeling hungry.
I am thinking about what to to today.

sitting on couch
hearing cars
typing
breathing
feeling a blanket
feeling hungry
hearing a noise
feeling tired
hearing sigh
feeling tickel
thinking
seeing clouds
feeling cold foot

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The second is truer.

2. What is here without labels?

Without the reference to “I” the experience is more direct and intensive. In hearing was only sound, nothing else. And no suffering attached in unpleasant body sensations. Seeing was more difficult, found no difference.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

The I label affect the experience. The result is a separation, for example between the hearer and the heard.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

The body became lighter, seemed to disappear sometimes. And was more relaxed and peaceful.

I have to admit that i had to do the experiments several times. I found it difficult to concentrate.

Love
Sundance

[Anastacia42]

Doing it several times is fine.

You've mostly got it.

Let's go a little deeper into what truth is and into labels (not) affecting experience. Here is the first pointer:

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.


We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,

[SundanceMuc]

Hi Stacy,
This was really hard for me. The truth is my holy grail. If somebody asks me “How are you?” I dont say “fine” (if i dont feel so), i then say something like “okay”.
I searched in my memories for a lie. And didn't really found one.

What is found?

At least i remembered that my former neighbor (not really a loved one ;-) asked me some month ago if he could stay in my guestroom for 2 nights. I refused bec he talks all the time, what is pretty exhausting. I told him my parents would visit me. And that was a lie.

But isn't cheating also a lie? When i havent told something - even when i have never been asked for the truth?
There was a situation when i was young i still regret today.

Do you see that?

Yes!
I felt these body sensations:
- Contraction and a feeling of heaviness in my chest
- a feeling of heat in my gut
- a tightening in my throat

Love,
Sundance

[Anastacia42]

Good. You've found the Sensation. That's all we care about.

When you recognize there is no separate "self: it is likely to feel like the truth or an expansive Sensation.

Now about labels:


Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is SEEN.

Loving,

[SundanceMuc]

Hi Stacy,
I have no problem feeling body sensations, more the contrary. These days i feel a lot of nervousness, fear and sadness.
But I also know calmness and the feeling of expansion in meditation.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

I see some red letters, which reading together have the meaning of a colour in englisch. Immediately i have the picture of the color green in my mind.

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

No, its only a concept to help to communicate.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

There is no correspondence with ‘reality’. The label suggest the colour green, but what is here now are the red letters.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

Green overlays the actual experience of red.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No, it's not affected.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

The labels have no affect on reality.

Let me know what is SEEN

Words are only concepts. That's why there are so many problems in communication.
Words have no actual reality or inherent truth. They are only useful for human contact.
The only tangible reality is in direct experience with the senses.

Wish you a beautiful weekend! :-)
Love,
Sundance