Requesting a guide

[Anastacia42]

That's all thinking & logic - very useless for inquiry.

Explore ‘Sense of Self’

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

Loving,

[Firen]

I will answer these but I just had an insight I wanted to tell you about.

I was reading Vince's enlightenment PDF and doing an exercise in it about looking at a cup. He says to look at the cup and notice all the details. Then ask "what is being seen?" And then ask "who is seeing?"

And I suddenly understood what is meant by "there is no seer and no seen, there is only seeing." Because whenever I "become" the seer I go to the mind and I'm not actually seeing anymore. It's the same for the seen. Both the seen and the seer only exist in my mind.

Whoa.

I actually was trying to explain this to a friend several weeks ago but didn't fully understand it. I told them that it's as if I perceive the world through a film that's overlaid over the top of what's real. It seems to make everything quite dull and flat. In the brief moments that I am able to lift off the "film", everything becomes vibrant. I see now that it's because I am being the "seer of things" and am thus entirely in my own mind. When I retreat deeply into my mind, I actually don't see anything at all. Like I can drive for an hour and not remember any of it.

[Firen]

It's interesting because every time I have some sort of insight and then I try to tell someone about it, it just sounds so obvious and simple. And also it's exactly what I already knew somehow. It's weird. Like the words just don't get it across or something. Or they fall short. But then I'm reading all these books and seeking seeking seeking for something out there. In a way I can't really describe, every time I peel away an illusion I just realize that the truth was always and already there and kind of staring me right in the face. And yeah, this exact experience is what liberated folks describe as well haha.

[Firen]

I have been paying attention to the sense of self for most of the day. Here is what I have found.

Does the sense of self have a location?

Yes, it is usually in the head area and occasionally (but not often) in the chest area.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

It feels like it is squeezed into the body. It does not feel like it extends outside of the body.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

This one felt tricky. Yes, the self seems to talk to itself in my head. Like I have two selves having a conversation. They often disagree.

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Well, if I don't go to thought, then no, the sense of self doesn't seem to communicate.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

Yes, it feels like a pulling inward, like a squeeze or a contraction. It feels dense and heavy. It feels magnetic, almost like my attention is stuck in quick sand.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

It seems to be made of thoughts that then produce sensations in the body. The cycle of thoughts and sensations keep circling and circling and create some kind of gravitational pull that is hard to break out of.

What is found?

I am so accustomed to this feeling of the sense of self that it is almost always my reality. I only know it is there by comparing it to the brief moments that I have had when I did not feel it.

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

Because whenever I "become" the seer I go to the mind and I'm not actually seeing anymore. It's the same for the seen. Both the seen and the seer only exist in my mind.

Yes! Exactly.

Yes, it feels like a pulling inward, like a squeeze or a contraction. It feels dense and heavy. It feels magnetic, almost like my attention is stuck in quick sand.

And what does that remind you of that we have already covered?

made of thoughts that then produce sensations in the body

Are thoughts Direct Experience? Or something made up (not "real")

Loving,

[Firen]

And what does that remind you of that we have already covered?

It reminds me of the exercise we did when I told myself lies and felt the heaviness and contraction in my body. And when I said a whole bunch of "I" statements and then said the statements without the "I" and felt the difference in my body.

Are thoughts Direct Experience? Or something made up (not "real")

The content of thoughts is not real. Thinking happens like sensations happen. The seer is a thought and therefore is a lie (not real). The seen is a thought and therefore is a lie (not real).

[Firen]

Ok now Pernille's lessons on doubt are making so much sense. I am rewatching them.
The impulse to try to "solve" the doubt is strong. I'm glad I have her pointers.

[Anastacia42]

Yes! All lies.

And re: Pernille. *whew*

Much love

[Anastacia42]

I From my first post:

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.


Loving,

[Firen]

Hi Stacy,

Yes thanks for the reminder. Yes, I will make an effort to post each day and keep the engagement alive.

I don't feel like I have updates. I had a call with Vince and Marius and that was helpful. I have been doing ButtChair and HandDesk here and there. The desire to see ebbs and flows. If I try too much I get tight. So I relax and then my drive falters. I get caught up in stories a lot. I feel a strong sense of 'me' despite knowing logically that there isn't one.

I do feel like I have a hangup around choice. I see that thoughts come out of nowhere and that I cannot control them. That is obvious. But decisions, they feel like I am making a choice and doing a thing. I am not sure how to shake this. Ideas welcome.

I see that I come to spirituality/seeking to avoid feeling uncomfortable feelings. I come to it for peace and calm and hope. I read the books to feel better.

I see that I have a reaction to a thing—a feeling in the body, and then there's a story, and then there's a judgment of the reaction and the story, and then a judgment of the judgment—and that these layers continue to construct the 'me.' The me is tethered by them. It's not the primary reaction that is a problem, nor is it the story, but the judgments that come after, the believing of the story and the "shoulds and should nots" that happen after. Those are the tether. I think.

What do you think?

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

What do you think?

I *think* that my thinking is as useless as yours.

I point. You LOOK.

That's all we do here. All thinking is useless. We're not here to analyze decision making or prove logically whether you're deciding or not. I already know you are not. So I point & you LOOK.

It's the only thing that works.

Have you read this?

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/res ... r-seeker/

I'm pretty sure you've seen this, but just in case:

https://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c?si=zdDcnHK0lAUqwgVL


There's no substitute for just looking.

Loving,

[Firen]

Hi Stacy,

Yes. Ok. Heard. Again.

I spent 20 minutes looking today with my hand on a surface, trying to look at that direct experience. Trying to find the border between my hand and the surface. It felt cold. This is a concept. I looked at "cold". There was a love of tingling, movement in the space where my hand was. It wasn't distinctly in the shape of a hand. It was just a space of tingling sensation. Hand is a concept. Hand on surface is a concept.

As I kept looking thoughts came in one after another. Memories, plans, judgments, assessments, opinions. to do lists. Like an army of soldiers charging faster than one every second. It was like I couldn't get through the army of thoughts to the actual experience. I kept getting caught over and over and over again in thought. I would realize it was thought and drop it and go back to looking. And then immediately another thought. I realized it was a thought, dropped it and kept looking. I had the thought that the one who is looking is the thoughts, so looking with that "me" produces more thoughts because that is all that it is. I dropped that thought and kept looking. I felt my body and my looking relax at times but the thoughts continued to attack. I saw that the story of thoughts attacking was a story in a thought and I dropped that.

I thought that the fighting and struggling is part of the "problem." I dropped that thought and kept looking. I felt every thought pull my attention away from the sensations and the direct experience. I felt the felt sense of a thought and the constriction of a thought. I could not seem to make it through the thoughts to the other side though. Not for a second, not for half a second. The direct experience seemed cloaked in an armor of thought.

[Anastacia42]

You write very well. Good illustrations.

Don't fight thoughts. Just let them be there. Look past them.

Thoughts are not the enemy. They have their place.

Here's a thought pointer. See what happens with this.

Observing thoughts

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?


Loving,

[Firen]

Where are they coming from and going to?

They come out of nowhere and return to nowhere.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No. They appear on their own.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No.

Can you predict your next thought?

Absolutely not.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Hahaha. No. Not at all.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No they appear on their own, without me having any control over them.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No it is not.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

There definitely does not appear to be an organized sequence. Thoughts appear randomly and may or may not have anything to do with what is actually happening or with any previous thoughts. Sometimes it does appear that thoughts follow as a natural response to other thoughts, as if one thought leads to the next. That is also a thought.

[Anastacia42]

Yes, ecactly.

How does it FEEL to see this?

Loving,