Revisiting the past

[Onlyanegg]

Hi Rali,
I can try to answer the final questions if you like. Seems like when I get bogged down in the sense of self, upon examination I quickly see it is a story happening and nothing there to hold on to there anymore. Even the sense of "waiting" for something seems like just more story now and there is a sense of amusement around it all. Not sure if the heaviness will come back but from this perspective it just seems like more of a narrative and the only thing real is "This" or direct experience. Even saying it's real seems like word games now.

Thank You
Love
Peter

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter

Seems like when I get bogged down in the sense of self, upon examination I quickly see it is a story happening and nothing there to hold on to there anymore.

That is all what it takes :)

Here there are… Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready. Please answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love
Rali

[Onlyanegg]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There can't be anything separate, period, including and especially the "self" Everything is dependent on everything else. The "self" is an idea, a belief. It isn't a solid, separate thing. It's more of a process, but that's just a story too. Self is a story. Like Santa Claus!

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It's a pattern of thoughts, reinforced by more stories about stories, about a past and future. It seems to start when self- consciousness starts. At least in the story happening now, about a distant past and a childhood.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Well, I can't seem to go back to the state of believing in a self. Also, reason seems to have nothing to do with this understanding. It doesn't make sense and that may be the one of the things "I" was clinging on to most dearly. Making things make sense. A linear progression with stages, a path, etc. But how can now be a path. It was always ever like this.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Great question.I wish there was a line in the sand that I could cross. I think I was just resisting all along, kind of addicted to seeking and not finding because I didn't want to get to the end of the story.
At a certain point it just didn't make sense to resist because one belief after another kept dropping away. Karma, free will, heaven, hell, enlightenment, and finally self were all just seen as beliefs happening in this local sense of space, whatever that means. . More Stories!

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decisioning is a happening, for no-one. Just what happen
"Seems like" a sense of decision happens, but it is seen that any possible decision is predetermined by all events that happened before, even before the sense of me arose, therefore decision is another illusion. Deciding to write this is just what happens at this point in the story.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Intention seems to work similarly to decision. Part of a process that has no beginning and no end. Just a chain of thoughts unending and unceasing. "I" seems to decide every day what to eat for breakfast, for example, but that decision is contingent on many factors ou of my control and so the decision just happens even before the word-play about the decision can be written.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Similar to decision making. There is a story about free will. It is nothing more than a story. "Dependent Origination" in the Buddhist sense is a pointing that makes it make sense for me. Nothing arises independent of anything else, so the idea even of free will is already "willed" into us.
I seemed to have the free will to pursue "awakening and enlightenment" but when I saw that it was just an idea it lost a lot of it's appeal.
"I" lived the life of a renunciate in many ways to be able to focus on "this" but then saw that the path of the householder, yogi, monk, or king is more or less the same thing, just different stories being told.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Choices happen, conditioning, patterns,habits, all make it seem like they are under our control but nothing is. I choose to drink coffee in the morning for its' stimulating effects, but that choice is dependent on a myriad of factors none of which are within anyone's control,

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Control, decision,choice,free will. All a story. A "sense" happening in the process of life with no beginning. No control possible or necessary anymore.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Things are just happening. Like clouds. Things come and go. A natural process, depending on perspective.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Also, nothing. Except in a story about a person with free will, choices, decisions to be made. The sense of guilt, shame and regret. Is also more stories. So is the Love, Peace and happiness for that matter.

6) Anything to add?

This has been a most interesting process. Very frustrating at times but also very freeing. I just did not want to look at what was obvious, until it became inevitable. Seems like there is still lots of confusion and doubt, but also, that those thoughts are seen as just thoughts that arise and fall. No-one ever wants to get rid of the pleasant thoughts just the unpleasant ones, yet it seems like they are all just transient and ephereral, just what happens.

Thank You for all of your help along the "way"
Love
Peter

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter
Thank you for your wonderful answers!

I presented the answers to the other guides to see if we have missed anything and they had a couple of questions with respect to your answers:

Everything is dependent on everything else

- is that direct experience or a story? If direct experience, please share how so? Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content?

Furthermore:
Say more about what differences you notice after seeing in terms of feelings and ways of relating with others. Do you notice changes? Please describe.

Looking forward to your answers!
Love
Rali

[Onlyanegg]

I presented the answers to the other guides to see if we have missed anything and they had a couple of questions with respect to your answers:

Everything is dependent on everything else

- is that direct experience or a story? If direct experience, please share how so? Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content?

Hi, yes, I see, even the story of interdependence is just a story. In my haste to answer and say something at all. I just reiterated more stories while overlooking the direct experience of what is happening here and how.
All expressions in words are stories, concepts, ideas...are just what happen sometimes. Just dogs barking. In this case here, nothing in the realm of thoughts has changed much, just the belief in the validity and reality of the thought content has changed.
Also, it seems like forgetfulness of and confusion about the thought that attaches to direct experience is very present. Or I mean, in the story about thoughts having somewhere to attach at least. But they don't, they just keep arising.
So, whether or not there is cause and effect can't be determined here, at least in direct experience.
But stories about evolution, cosmology, science, etc, still hold lots of appeal for this bundle of thoughts and habits that sometimes feels like me.

Say more about what differences you notice after seeing in terms of feelings and ways of relating with others. Do you notice changes? Please describe.

I wouldn't presume to say that I saw anything in particular, more like some of the ideas we discussed previously of losing belief in a permanent, solid, real, self. It is nowhere to be found after lots of inquiry. It is a kind of myth or illusion.
In some respect, I feel like the tin man or cowardly lion in OZ after the wizard pronounces them to have a brain or a heart. It was there all along, I just never believed in it. It seems like you pronouncing me to have "seen," solidified some kind of clarity
in the sense of seeking. All of a sudden it became unnecessary. Because why seek something which can't be found but also never was lost.
There is a lightness in the body and a sense of greater energy at the moment. Last week I was home for a few days break and I found myself ruminating and feeling melancholy, and somehow I was able to savor those feelings as part of the myriad multiplicities in this great mystery of life...and it passed in due course
.
Last few days have been reconnecting with a few work colleagues and planning spring activities, so life goes on as normal, no big changes there. No pot of gold at the end of the rainbow! Yet! Also I was hoping for more rainbows and unicorns! I'm sure they're out there but ordinariness is just about fascinating enough at the moment.

Thank you so much for guiding! Seems like this dialog could go on indefinitely as well, but obviously you are busy and you gave me enough exercises and insights to revisit if it becomes necessary again.

Love,
Peter

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter
Thank you for your answers! I will pass them on to the guides and see if they have follow up questions.

Thank you so much for guiding! Seems like this dialog could go on indefinitely as well, but obviously you are busy and you gave me enough exercises and insights to revisit if it becomes necessary again.

You are more than welcome to continue writing on this thread or contact me directly with anything that you need help with or if you just want to chat about anything :)

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter

One more thing:
Any changes in how you experience other people? If people are (conventionally speaking) not treating you the way you like the most, any change in the experience of that? Maybe look for one day and see what happens.

Love
Rali

[Onlyanegg]

Any changes in how you experience other people? If people are (conventionally speaking) not treating you the way you like the most, any change in the experience of that? Maybe look for one day and see what happens.

I did happen to notice the other day In a situation where I would usually be annoyed at another person on the road, I still got annoyed! And I was happy to be able to note my own annoyance without "identifying" with it. It just came and went and I felt some small amusement that these patterns happen, but they're not happening to me anymore...just happening in life. And it seems that small subtle shift is really everything towards being able to let go of them, maybe, eventually, in the interest of de-stressing the body or whatever that might mean now. But even the body becomes just another appearance in this.

It's also interesting to think of "passing the final test" or something and the need for validation is also losing it's hold, just another story, when "I" used to care so much what other people thought! Similar happening at work with my "Status" etc...just more delight at letting go of the need to be praised or loved etc and more allowance to look directly at what is happening.
I haven't experienced severe pain in a while, we will cross that bridge when we get to it I guess :)
Thanks Always,
Love
Peter

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter
Welcome home!

Thank you for your beautiful answers! It has been such a pleasure to walk beside you through the gateless gate! Your openness and willingness to look were simply awesome and made guiding you a joy.

You will receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest to you. I will inbox you my contact details if you want to stay in touch. If you have any questions, just ask, or you can drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

Please don’t forget that this is just the beginning of exploring. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs. Emotions and feelings can show up to be seen and felt, so don’t stop looking! Please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look together, if you like.

I also think that you would make a wonderful guide, if you’re willing to explore it, when you feel ready. It can be very rewarding and it help you deepen your understanding.

We have a couple of support groups that are meeting via teleconference. You can find out about these here:
viewforum.php?f=49

For Fetters:
Todd has teleconference group that meets - I think every 2 weeks.
There is also www.findingawakening.com but Christine has a waiting list.
And Kevin Shinilac has instructions on his site https://www.simplytheseen.com/

Love
Rali