Revisiting the past

[Onlyanegg]

No experiencer, just experience happening, a story unfolding for noone.

How does that make you feel?

Well honestly there is a lot of melancholy happening. Feels like letting go of the only sense of reality that has been. But also letting go into the flow of endless change which is inevitable anyway.

But the thought story itself persistently comes through as something real belonging to someone real.

What makes the story “real”? How is the “realness” of the story experienced exactly? Or is it only “real” because thought says so?Remember any “feels like”/ “seems like” have to be checked!

The realness is just what happens in direct experience. Being a body moving in time and space...all concepts, yet the thought processes separating and defining everything persist. In some sense it feels like a waking dream, going through the motions of life, and waiting for and anticipating the next stage of evolution.
At the same time it seems that the characters happening on the screen of experience are somewhat temporal and whatever this is is behind the screen.

Really?? In a meat-bag? What exactly are you referring to with "meat-bag"? Where do thoughts appear exactly? Inside the “body”?

By meat bag I am just referring to the sense of being a body in time and space. The reality headset. Happening for no-one, and yet still identifying as these thoughts that keep happening. I guess there's nothing that's going to drop, just an acceptance of the way it is.

Thank You
Love
Peter

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter

Well honestly there is a lot of melancholy happening. Feels like letting go of the only sense of reality that has been. But also letting go into the flow of endless change which is inevitable anyway.

Good! This question was aimed to reveal what the story is at the moment, as you obviously are not feeler/experiencer :). Now see what this is all about. There are sensations and a story about “melancholy”. Is there a sad Peter, though? Is there really letting go of anything? Is Peter doing the letting go? Or letting go happens in thoughts as the futility of trying to “understand” all of THIS is seen? Do you see how the story is layered on top of normal everyday experience?

all concepts, yet the thought processes separating and defining everything persist.

Well this conditioning was not build in a day, but now you have looking to deconstruct it. Language is still used in day to day stuff but it’s emptiness is known. Doing the cup of coffee exercise helps reinforcing what is actually here.
Like:
Washing the dishes – just feeling, seeing
Walking the dog – hearing, seeing, feeling, smelling
Watching TV – feeling, seeing, hearing
…
Looking, looking, and looking – the more looking the less old thinking patterns!

By meat bag I am just referring to the sense of being a body in time and space. The reality headset.

Keep investigating the idea of the body…to how it comes about as seeming to be something solid, when in actuality it is simply sensation and an idea. Notice how when you close your eyes, that there is an idea, a facsimile of the body that is there and notice how that is appearing. Open the eyes and notice how the colours labelled body are appearing. Check to see is the body actually seeing? Can you find a head or eyes that are seeing and so on? Becoming clearer that what is appearing as your current actual experience is a seamless whole, including the body.
Here is a deeper investigation of the body, that I haven’t given you yet. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
1. First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

2. Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

3. While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

4. Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

5. Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

6. Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

7. Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

8. Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

9. Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

At the same time it seems that the characters happening on the screen of experience are somewhat temporal and whatever this is is behind the screen.

Where is this screen in DE? Where is the “reality headset”? Can you touch these? Smell these? See these? Or are they just empty thoughts/stories?

I guess there's nothing that's going to drop, just an acceptance of the way it is.

Exactly! There is freedom in that - to experience life in all its glory and all its juiciness :) – free from the empty stories, the scary fairy tales
Love
Rali

[Onlyanegg]

Is there a sad Peter, though? Is there really letting go of anything? Is Peter doing the letting go? Or letting go happens in thoughts as the futility of trying to “understand” all of THIS is seen? Do you see how the story is layered on top of normal everyday experience?

Yes, I can see that no Peter=no one to let go, no one tounderstand. All is happening. If I bring myself back into the present, nothing is wrong, noone to be sad as well. Just thoughts. I'm growing tired of the thoughts dominating this reality.

Check to see is the body actually seeing? Can you find a head or eyes that are seeing and so on?

I just want to scream, of course there's a head and eyes, and a body....I feel it and see it. But when I really investigate, its just seeing happening from what seems like a location in time and space, but I cannot find evidence of the person that is happening to except in thought stories.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

Thoughts create an imaginary connection whether there is one or not. It looks like "me" in the mirror. At least the me that I've become conditioned to see.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

Colors and Shapes...labels label it as a body. But the conditioning runs so deep and strong that it is hard to imagine ever not thinking of it as "my body."

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

This is getting pretty deep, but ok, no knowledge at all of legs. Only thoughts. But when I turn my attention to the supposed area of legs there is sensation. Not by the image in the mirror though.

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

Its always only sensations when the thoughts are ignored.

8. Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

Only sensations

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

Sensation of pressure, sensation of breathing, Walking itself is kind of a compound movement so the sensations of walking don't really point to "walking"

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Yes! Just thoughts

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

Its all thoughts. Kind of a waking dream of thoughts.

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

9. Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
Labels all the way down.

At the same time it seems that the characters happening on the screen of experience are somewhat temporal and whatever this is is behind the screen.

Where is this screen in DE? Where is the “reality headset”? Can you touch these? Smell these? See these? Or are they just empty thoughts/stories?

The screen also can't be found, except as a label, something like "behind the eyes" Back to square one but maybe I see the labels and thoughts more clearly now.

Thank You
Love
Peter

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter
I think it would be good if you start giving me examples of daily activities seen in DE. Like these:
Washing the dishes – just feeling, seeing
Walking the dog – hearing, seeing, feeling, smelling
Watching TV – feeling, seeing, hearing
I want a few examples (not from memory) with each reply from now on.

Yes, I can see that no Peter=no one to let go, no one tounderstand. All is happening. If I bring myself back into the present, nothing is wrong, noone to be sad as well. Just thoughts. I'm growing tired of the thoughts dominating this reality.

How exactly are you getting tired of thoughts? Describe what is happening in DE, please. What is in control of what is appearing?

This is getting pretty deep, but ok, no knowledge at all of legs. Only thoughts. But when I turn my attention to the supposed area of legs there is sensation. Not by the image in the mirror though

How is it known that that particular sensation is of legs without the label? Does the sensation look like legs? Is there anything “leggy” in the sensation? Again, does sensations have a location?
1. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes. Lift your leg and pay attention to the sensation of “leg lifted”
2. Open your eyes and now pay attention to the sight of the leg only.
3. While looking at the leg, pay attention to the sensation of the leg.
Do sight and sensation appear simultaneously? Do they appear separately? Do they depend on each other? Is there a link between them?

Sensation of pressure, sensation of breathing, Walking itself is kind of a compound movement so the sensations of walking don't really point to "walking"

Sensations of pressure or sensations labelled pressure? How is “pressure” or “breathing” experienced in DE?

Kind of a waking dream of thoughts.

Do thoughts dream? Do thoughts think? Are there discrete thoughts without content or just thinking?

The screen also can't be found, except as a label, something like "behind the eyes" Back to square one but maybe I see the labels and thoughts more clearly now.

So keep on trying to find where “behind the eyes” is in DE? What are “eyes” in DE without the mental image and labels? Just a few examples of plain old looking! When something “doubtful” appears try to find what it is talking about in DE – see, feel, hear, smell, or/and taste it.

Please do not forget the examples of daily activities in DE!! Let’s make sure that it becomes a habit

Love
Rali

[Onlyanegg]

So far today---eating -touching,tasting,smelling
drinking-touching,tasting,smelling
According to the rules of direct experience, everything is only sensation....but thoughts are attaching to everything as well.

How exactly are you getting tired of thoughts? Describe what is happening in DE, please. What is in control of what is appearing?

Yes, I see, thoughts are telling the story that they are getting tired of thoughts! No-one is in control of it ultimately. In the thought-story, there is also waiting for the drop to drop!

How is it known that that particular sensation is of legs without the label? Does the sensation look like legs? Is there anything “leggy” in the sensation? Again, does sensations have a location?

Right, withought thought labels, there is nothing that is known in words, nothing with direction or location, nothing really in time, only in this moment is anything happening,
As I am typing this, i only have the sensation of touch. But in the "imaginary brain area" the fingers are being directed to touch individual discrete letters that are supposed to have a meaning that is agreed upon.

1. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes. Lift your leg and pay attention to the sensation of “leg lifted”
2. Open your eyes and now pay attention to the sight of the leg only.
3. While looking at the leg, pay attention to the sensation of the leg.

Do sight and sensation appear simultaneously? Do they appear separately? Do they depend on each other? Is there a link between them?

It feels like sensation happens, then sight takes over. Many of the words also seem to be triggered by sight.

Sensations of pressure or sensations labelled pressure? How is “pressure” or “breathing” experienced in DE?

Sensations labeled pressure. It is all just sensation and the labels are added by thought.

Do thoughts dream? Do thoughts think? Are there discrete thoughts without content or just thinking?

I guess it's all just thoughts, thoughts, thoughts, no thinking, dreaming or even content really, just happening by itself.

So keep on trying to find where “behind the eyes” is in DE? What are “eyes” in DE without the mental image and labels? Just a few examples of plain old looking! When something “doubtful” appears try to find what it is talking about in DE – see, feel, hear, smell, or/and taste it.

I am looking,looking,looking for what is behind the eyes that seems to produce this thought story of an observer it is all happening to.

Thank You,
Love
Peter

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter

So far today---eating -touching,tasting,smelling
drinking-touching,tasting,smelling
According to the rules of direct experience, everything is only sensation....but thoughts are attaching to everything as well.

Good! How is everything only sensation, though? Is there no seeing, hearing, etc., or do you mean experiencing? Do you see how the meaning of words is not absolute, but relative to conditioning?

Please give me at least five or six examples written EXACTLY like that:
Washing the dishes – just feeling, seeing
Walking the dog – hearing, seeing, feeling, smelling
Watching TV – feeling, seeing, hearing
I want a few examples (not from memory) with each reply from now on.

Right, withought thought labels, there is nothing that is known in words, nothing with direction or location, nothing really in time, only in this moment is anything happening,
As I am typing this, i only have the sensation of touch. But in the "imaginary brain area" the fingers are being directed to touch individual discrete letters that are supposed to have a meaning that is agreed upon.

Very good! How does that make you feel?

I guess it's all just thoughts, thoughts, thoughts, no thinking, dreaming or even content really, just happening by itself.

Is there really no thinking but thoughts? Are there separate thoughts without the content? How is it known where the one thought finishes and the other starts without the content? I agree that “dreaming” is a label for thinking

I am looking,looking,looking for what is behind the eyes that seems to produce this thought story of an observer it is all happening to.

Remember we are not interested in looking for something that might or might not be here, but looking at what is here/now!!! How exactly are you looking at what is behind the eyes? Where exactly are you looking if there are no "locations or directions"? How exactly does is “it” produce anything??? Is there a mechanism of a kind? Or without thought content there is just knowing_thinking_feeling_seeing_hearing_tasting_smelling, inseparable THIS free of subject-object relationship?
Love
Rali

[Onlyanegg]

Good! How is everything only sensation, though? Is there no seeing, hearing, etc., or do you mean experiencing? Do you see how the meaning of words is not absolute, but relative to conditioning?

Yes, all these words are slippery and relative to context. Seeing, hearing,touching,tasting all are happening most of the time. Seeing is the primary sense for me. And it is conflated with the idea of looking for what is seeing. The sense of attention is so enmeshed in thoughts mostly that it is hard to pay attention to the looking, most of the time, and yet that is also what is happening in direct experience. I had a strong sense that I am not thinking clearly, like I'm daydreaming through my own life. Must pay attention more!!

Typing-feeling,seeing,hearing.
Drinking Coffee-Tasting,feeling,smelling
Carrying Bags-Feeling,touching,seeing
Talking-Feeling,seeing
Walking-Feeling,seeing,hearing.

Right, withought thought labels, there is nothing that is known in words, nothing with direction or location, nothing really in time, only in this moment is anything happening,
As I am typing this, i only have the sensation of touch. But in the "imaginary brain area" the fingers are being directed to touch individual discrete letters that are supposed to have a meaning that is agreed upon.

Very good! How does that make you feel?

It makes me question the basis of knowing anything. It's all just thoughts creating a story, maybe based on some consensual hallucination evolved to optimize fitness payoffs or whatever, yet there is very little about reality that can be known. Idea s like truth are falling away leaving nothing to replace them. I cant wait to be rid of it all especially the sense of a me, yet this is just another concept to cling to.

I was listening to some dharma talk where the speaker said that the sense organs are really just receptors, and the actual act of seeing etc is not happening til it is processed in the brain, and maybe not even there...It made me realize that I am just living in a kind of VR simulation of life at all times.

Is there really no thinking but thoughts? Are there separate thoughts without the content? How is it known where the one thought finishes and the other starts without the content? I agree that “dreaming” is a label for thinking

I guess what I meant is that thinking just happens and the content of thought is sort of out of control. The content of a thought is basically the thought itself. It's just a continuous river of thought, even in a very concentrated state, the thought or sensation of "I am" never seems to go away.

Remember we are not interested in looking for something that might or might not be here, but looking at what is here/now!!! How exactly are you looking at what is behind the eyes? Where exactly are you looking if there are no "locations or directions"? How exactly does is “it” produce anything??? Is there a mechanism of a kind? Or without thought content there is just knowing_thinking_feeling_seeing_hearing_tasting_smelling, inseparable THIS free of subject-object relationship?

Free of subject object relationship seems to be the key to non-duality, not one, nor two, or many. At least in theory. I'm looking for what is, just this, happening any moment, this moment. The illusion of thoughts creating a past and future, a subject object relationship, is what is happening here. What seems to always have happened. It may never stop. So it boils down to looking for what it's happening too....I may be clinging so tightly to the concept of me that I'm unable to see whats right in front of me. Oh well, looking keeps happening too. MAybe the contradiction will resolve itself someday!!

Thanks
Love
Peter

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter

Typing-feeling,seeing,hearing.
Drinking Coffee-Tasting,feeling,smelling
Carrying Bags-Feeling,touching,seeing
Talking-Feeling,seeing
Walking-Feeling,seeing,hearing.

Good! Keep on giving me examples with every reply!

Yes, all these words are slippery and relative to context. Seeing, hearing,touching,tasting all are happening most of the time. Seeing is the primary sense for me.

Are there really separate senses without thought content? Where is the border that separates hearing from seeing, or from tasting…? We assume that we have eyes to see, ears, to hear …but in DE there are no “eyes”, “ears” …it is just the senses/experiencing. So what makes seeing separate from hearing without the labels? Do they appear in a different "locations"?

And it is conflated with the idea of looking for what is seeing. The sense of attention is so enmeshed in thoughts mostly that it is hard to pay attention to the looking, most of the time, and yet that is also what is happening in direct experience. I had a strong sense that I am not thinking clearly, like I'm daydreaming through my own life. Must pay attention more!!

Again, is attention separate from thinking (its objects)? Where is the border that separates attention from thinking? Does attention exist on its own? Can it be experienced without the objects? Are you doing the thinking (clearly or not)? Are you responsible for “your” thoughts? Is whatever is happening right now in your control? What is outside of experiencing and wants to overcome thought content???

Also how many times do you need to look for whatever is seeing? LOOK! Do not continue to look, just LOOK ONCE and tell me what you see!!! It’s not like something will appear somehow magically in the future – it’s either t/here right now or not. The future never comes it only exists in thoughts! All you have is right here-now!

With eyes open, a world of objects appears . . . a room . . . a computer screen etc.
What you can specifically see isn't of interest here, and whatever it is, I am simply going to refer to it as 'what can be seen'.

1) With eyes open, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'what can be seen' as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'what can be seen'?
3) Can what is witnessing 'what can be seen' be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Peter be found that is seeing/witnessing 'what can be seen'?
Or is there just simply 'what can be seen' to be found?
What do you find?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found?
Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

It makes me question the basis of knowing anything… Ideas like truth are falling away leaving nothing to replace them.

Yup! Pointless! All empty stories :)

It's all just thoughts creating a story, maybe based on some consensual hallucination evolved to optimize fitness payoffs or whatever, yet there is very little about reality that can be known… I can’t wait to be rid of it all especially the sense of a me, yet this is just another concept to cling to.

More empty stories… How can YOU get rid of YOURSELF?

It's just a continuous river of thought, even in a very concentrated state, the thought or sensation of "I am" never seems to go away.

Well it is conditioned language that serves the purpose of communication, but does that mean there is an “I” that is doer, thinker…? LOOK (ONCE) and tell me if you are coming up with the thoughts (happy or unhappy), are you choosing anything, are you in control of your circumstances?

What is the sensation of “I am”? Please describe it to me!!!

I was listening to some dharma talk where the speaker said that the sense organs are really just receptors, and the actual act of seeing etc is not happening til it is processed in the brain, and maybe not even there...It made me realize that I am just living in a kind of VR simulation of life at all times.

We agreed to no teachings during the inquiry!!! It’s all concepts! Have these concepts helped you somehow? Why are you here then?
How is it known that “the sense organs are really just receptors”? Where are these organs? How is it known that "eyes see"? Or is it an assumption (a nice empty thought/fiction)? Where is the “brain” in DE and what is it? Point ot it and see if you can see anything where you are pointing to! What a beautiful fairy tale, having nothing to do with what is happening in DE!

I may be clinging so tightly to the concept of me that I'm unable to see whats right in front of me.

What is outside of reality and it clings to thoughts??? LOOK (ONCE)! What is seeing “in front” (of what)? Where is this me that has a front and back, left or right? Where exactly is this center? Is it in the “body”? Do sensations have a center? So much story that needs looking here!!!
Love
Rali

[Onlyanegg]

So much to process. Look once! Wish it were that simple, I mean for "the me."

Are there really separate senses without thought content? Where is the border that separates hearing from seeing, or from tasting…?[/quote]
Also, no discrete borders for anything really.

So what makes seeing separate from hearing without the labels? Do they appear in a different "locations"?

This is a great question. It can be answered in lots of ways intellectually, but in direct experience they are just sensations, and then thoughts which are constantly streaming attach themselves to the sensation. Also a metaphor since there is nothing to attach to.

Again, is attention separate from thinking (its objects)?

Nothing is separate. Thinking says it is, but it's not. It's a process or a happening more than a discrete thing.

Where is the border that separates attention from thinking?

Also, no borders, no separations. Only sensations and thoughts.

Does attention exist on its own?

Nothing can exist on it's own, so no.

Can it be experienced without the objects?

Also no, at least in the story.

Are you doing the thinking (clearly or not)? Are you responsible for “your” thoughts?

Well, it "feels like"" I am....everything is in quotes. But noone can be responsible for something that arises in this process that has no beginning and no end. So No.

Is whatever is happening right now in your control?

Also part of the process of no control.

What is outside of experiencing and wants to overcome thought content???

There can be nothing outside of experiencing. It's experiencing experiencing itself ad infinitum.

Also how many times do you need to look for whatever is seeing? LOOK! Do not continue to look, just LOOK ONCE and tell me what you see!!! It’s not like something will appear somehow magically in the future – it’s either t/here right now or not. The future never comes it only exists in thoughts! All you have is right here-now!

I understand, there is nothing to look for, only what's happening. I guess this is it! A being trapped in a story, a dream, the story of seeking and suffering. Like everything else it is part of the flow and futile to fight it.

1) With eyes open, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'what can be seen' as I mentioned?

Not sure I understand. There are also felt sensations when looking. Actually many of the sensations are'nt even discrete, like the way smell affects taste, etc

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'what can be seen'?

Seeing can also be seen as a metaphor as in "looking." Seems like the eyes play lots of tricks in the physical seeing too, with the brain interpolating the results.

3) Can what is witnessing 'what can be seen' be found?

Not yet. Only witnessing happening and thoughts.

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Peter be found that is seeing/witnessing 'what can be seen'?

Thoughts happen that say it "Feels" personal but now that feels like just another phenomena, so no.

Or is there just simply 'what can be seen' to be found?

All that is seen and unseen. Seen is also a thought.

What do you find?
Just seeking happening, no finding

Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found?

Just in concepts, not in direct experience.

Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

See above!

More empty stories… How can YOU get rid of YOURSELF?

A concept can't erase another concept, except conceptually!
In some ways I have been "poisoned" with the idea of a dropping away, that could happen at some future time. I see the futility of this expectation and it is slowly losing it's appeal.

We agreed to no teachings during the inquiry!!! It’s all concepts! Have these concepts helped you somehow? Why are you here then?
How is it known that “the sense organs are really just receptors”? Where are these organs? How is it known that "eyes see"? Or is it an assumption (a nice empty thought/fiction)? Where is the “brain” in DE and what is it? Point ot it and see if you can see anything where you are pointing to! What a beautiful fairy tale, having nothing to do with what is happening in DE!

Nothing is really known in an absolute sense. It is all just stories about the experiences of a life lived that are just happenings. Even "the Universe" is a concept that cant be known. It just keeps slipping away.

What is outside of reality and it clings to thoughts??? LOOK (ONCE)! What is seeing “in front” (of what)? Where is this me that has a front and back, left or right? Where exactly is this center? Is it in the “body”? Do sensations have a center? So much story that needs looking here!!!

Nothing outside of reality. No "reality" itself. Just flow happening.

Also,
Riding-seeing,touching,hearing.
Teaching-hearing,feeling,seeing
Eating lunch-Tasting,Smelling,Seeing,touching
Sitting-Touching,seeing
Exercising-Touching,seeing,hearing
All sensations happening, all at once mostly.

Thank You
Love
Peter

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter
You keep reporting your thought content, but I’m actually interested only in your DE observations. Can we please stick to those!

Riding-seeing,touching,hearing.
Teaching-hearing,feeling,seeing
Eating lunch-Tasting,Smelling,Seeing,touching
Sitting-Touching,seeing
Exercising-Touching,seeing,hearing

Great! Keep sharing these!

Look once! Wish it were that simple, I mean for "the me."

A being trapped in a story, a dream, the story of seeking and suffering.

Is there “a being” or just “being”? Is life happening to “a being” or as “being”? Can anything be trapped in a story, can a word be trapped in a story? Or is just a story about something trapped in a story? Isn’t “being” also appearing as thinking?
What is the difference between abiding in tranquility and moving in thought (Mahamudra koan)?

Here is something else for your “me” to consider:

So what is the real purpose of all this?
There is none. We are nothing.
You have no reason to exist.
As a matter of fact, you do not exist. (Laughter)
You have never really existed. It is all a cosmic joke.
There is no reason for you to be alive and to be here.
This may sound like an insult--it is! (More laughter)
But it is the truth and the truth hurts.
You may think you are important, that you have come to earth
to accomplish great deeds, or to get enlightened. That is not true.
The enlightenment is already here and it doesn't need you.
You are not wanted by anything or by anybody. (Laughter)
You are a complete failure. (Loud laughter)
In truth you do not exist.
The illusion of your existence makes you think that you are important,
that you are somebody.
That is why we talk about being nobody so much; there is no body."
~Robert Adams

3) Can what is witnessing 'what can be seen' be found?

Not yet. Only witnessing happening and thoughts.

When is “yet”? Why is “ONCE” not enough when all you have is NOW? Without the story how many times is looking for the seer/doer/witness needed? “Reality”, what IS, is always the same only thought makes it look different with a different story. So please LOOK ONCE and say once and for all is there anything like a witness, doer, seer, or any other entity, that can be observed through the senses???

Not sure I understand. There are also felt sensations when looking. Actually many of the sensations are'nt even discrete, like the way smell affects taste, etc

The point was to look at seeing something “specific” (like whatever is there when “eyes are closed”) and observe what else is there in just “seeing".

Seeing can also be seen as a metaphor as in "looking." Seems like the eyes play lots of tricks in the physical seeing too, with the brain interpolating the results.

What do you find?

Just seeking happening, no finding

Or is there just simply 'what can be seen' to be found?

All that is seen and unseen. Seen is also a thought.

Well, no need for intellectualizing or bypassing (resisting to answer the question) here. It was a practical exercise and words were used to describe the exercise. This is the point of language – an exchange of meaning/description. In this case the description is a pointer to DE. The choice of words is conditioned of course, so if you want to call it “looking” or "watching" or "gazing" or "peeking" be my guest. Please explain what is “brain”, what are “physical seeing” and “results” in DE? Is there any difference between “physical seeing” and “DE seeing” in DE? Is DE a special mode of seeing?

Nothing outside of reality. No "reality" itself. Just flow happening.

What is the difference between “reality” and “flow”? :)

So let's review where we are at with the following questions.

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?
What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?
Is seeking still going on?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

[poppyseed]

Hi peter
It's been a while... Are we still doing this??

Love
Rali

[Onlyanegg]

Walking=Seeing,touching
Resisting Cold=Touching,seeing
Eating=Tasting,touching,smelling
Typing=Touching,seeing +thoughts
Drinking=Touching,smelling,tasting.

Is there “a being” or just “being”?

Just Being.

Is life happening to “a being” or as “being”?

As Being

Can anything be trapped in a story, can a word be trapped in a story?

Nothing is trapped. No story to be trapped in.

Or is just a story about something trapped in a story?

Just a story!

Isn’t “being” also appearing as thinking?

Being appears as whatever is appearing to appear.

What is the difference between abiding in tranquility and moving in thought (Mahamudra koan)?

They are the same thing. It's all abiding.

When is “yet”? Why is “ONCE” not enough when all you have is NOW?

Yes, I see there is no yet. It never comes.

Without the story how many times is looking for the seer/doer/witness needed? “Reality”, what IS, is always the same only thought makes it look different with a different story.

Also true, seeking, doing,witnessing all the same thing.
So please LOOK ONCE and say once and for all is there anything like a witness, doer, seer, or any other entity, that can be observed through the senses???
There is not. It is imagination. Just a story, a happening.

Please explain what is “brain”, what are “physical seeing” and “results” in DE?

In direct experience seeing is just another sensation, til thought comes to label it. The content of thought is unreliable, therefore all that can be seen is a sensation.

Is there any difference between “physical seeing” and “DE seeing” in DE?

Seeing is just happening. It can't be known what physical seeing is, except in intellectual concepts, which is just like the word agreements you referenced.

Is DE a special mode of seeing?

Seeing is just what happens, another sensation happening.

What is the difference between “reality” and “flow”? :)

Only reality, flow is just a concept and it sort of implies a progression, so maybe leave it out.

So let's review where we are at with the following questions. What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living

.
Nothing has changed in normal everyday life. Maybe the story that's happening in thoughts has shifted a bit into the realm of less beliefs about stuff, but that's just what's happening.

What changes? What stays the same?

Again, in my experience nothing has changed. Looking at direct experience of sensations and thoughts seems to be happening more often, but that's just another thought happening now.

What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?

It probably has to do with dropping the beliefs about a me, or a persistent sense of self. Now it just seems like an attachment to a thought habit that once was is no more. Even in the darkest moments it seems like a story, not a concrete thing.

Is seeking still going on?

One of the last beliefs that "I" still seems to be holding on to is the idea that something will be different in the future, whether through some revelation, some kind of epiphany or something else. But I also see this as a story. It hasn't stopped being a story that says I'm particularly attached to it. So yes, kind of still seeking.

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

A lot of the confusion seems to have dissipated along with the hope of attaining something different. Some days are better than others. That's just the way it is.

Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

Seems like sense of a separate self is just a thought process. Like all other thoughts. Just maybe a stickier one because it's reinforced on a daily basis. But of course nothing can be separate from anything else in a real absolute sense. Every particle is intertwined with every other, and even the particles are another thought. What's happening at the moment is the only thing that can really be experienced directly and the self isn't part of it.[/quote]

Sorry for the delay we had a rare snow day here in NYC.
Thank You
Love,
Peter

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter
It’s good to see that you are still here :)

Resisting Cold=Touching,seeing
Eating=Tasting,touching,smelling
Typing=Touching,seeing +thoughts
Drinking=Touching,smelling,tasting.

What is “touching” in DE? Are there “fingers” involved?

Resisting Cold=feeling, seeing, thinking (if there is resisting and not just COLD)
Eating=Tasting, feeling, smelling
Keep on doing this!

What is the difference between “reality” and “flow”? :)

Only reality, flow is just a concept and it sort of implies a progression, so maybe leave it out.

They are actually both concepts – THIS is indescribable but experienceable :). That’s why I asked you as you said that the one is a story and the other is not.

In direct experience seeing is just another sensation, til thought comes to label it. The content of thought is unreliable, therefore all that can be seen is a sensation.

Seeing and sensations are different labels for THIS. Sensations is a label synonymous with feeling, and seeing with colours, if we have to be pedantic. Beyond language, there is just inseparable and indescribable THIS. Do we agree? But yes, ultimately it is a word agreement for meaning. That is why we have Oxford dictionary, so it’s not just between the two of us :)

One of the last beliefs that "I" still seems to be holding on to is the idea that something will be different in the future, whether through some revelation, some kind of epiphany or something else. But I also see this as a story. It hasn't stopped being a story that says I'm particularly attached to it. So yes, kind of still seeking.

When is this “future? And what will be different for whom? Yes, the old “enlightenment” story. But what could possibly get enlightened and experience the benefits?? What will experience this change? Is there an experiencer? Is change even possible without the story? What is “change” in DE? To have a change you have to isolate something artificially from the whole and then compare it to what (memory/thought)? Can experience – what is happening – be compared to a thought? Like eating chocolate and imagining chocolate. Are they even comparable? It’s like comparing apples to shoes :)
To have seeking is to have expectations (stories). To whom do these expectations belong and what has to fulfill them? These stories will continue to appear until their accuracy is checked. Right?? So keep on checking these stories, don’t leave anything unchecked! Daily activities break down helps you put everything “into perspective”

Just look now... Experience can be found, but can an experiencer of experience be found?

A lot of the confusion seems to have dissipated along with the hope of attaining something different. Some days are better than others. That's just the way it is.

Great stuff!

Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

Seems like sense of a separate self is just a thought process. Like all other thoughts. Just maybe a stickier one because it's reinforced on a daily basis. But of course nothing can be separate from anything else in a real absolute sense. Every particle is intertwined with every other, and even the particles are another thought. What's happening at the moment is the only thing that can really be experienced directly and the self isn't part of it.

So is the illusion clear or not??? Do you need more clarification or pointing? You seem to be avoiding the big fat YES ;)

Love
Rali

[Onlyanegg]

Showering=Touching,Seeing,Smelling,Hearing
Eating=Tasting,Seeing,Smelling,Hearing and Touching
Walking=Touching,Seeing,hearing
Reading=Seeing+thoughts attaching?

In one sense, every ...ing, involves all the senses to a greater or lesser degree...the touching of the paper or computer when reading, the smell of the air when walking...the hearing and taste of water when showering....All is truly inseparable.

What is “touching” in DE? Are there “fingers” involved?

It's just sensation. Feelings of Pressure, ticklishness,pain,itchiness, etc are all labels for the different sensations perceived when "touching" happens. As to whether there are fingers involved, in an absolute sense, It cannot be known. There is really nothing solid, or subjective when it is just the whole field looking at itself. And, not to over intellectualize, but in a relative sense it sure looks like "fingers" in the sense of sight, when typing this.

When is this “future? And what will be different for whom?

Yes, agreed, there is no future, except in imagination. The future never comes because it is always now. And for whom? Who knows. For the imaginary experiencer.

But what could possibly get enlightened and experience the benefits?? What will experience this change?

Right, It's like they say. Nothing can be found that resembles a me, just a story.

Is there an experiencer?

Also, in a story about a witness or an experiencer for whom life happens.

Is change even possible without the story?

It's true, if there is "nothing" then nothing can change. And Yet I just heard the story of a student who's parents died in a car crash on Friday, so in some relative sense in the story lots changes.

What is “change” in DE?

Sounds like an intellectual question. Moving from the present to....more present??Sensation "seems" to change, but it's all just sensation.

To have a change you have to isolate something artificially from the whole and then compare it to what (memory/thought)? Can experience – what is happening – be compared to a thought?

Like eating chocolate and imagining chocolate. Are they even comparable?

Agreed. But in thoughts you can compare, and I still feel mostly lost in thought, which is seen through as a persistent illusion.

To have seeking is to have expectations (stories).
To whom do these expectations belong and what has to fulfill them? These stories will continue to appear until their accuracy is checked. Right??

Right. They belong to no one who can be found. They belong to a story. Maybe death is the only thing that can remove the goggles of story from this imaginary person? I'm still waiting to see.

So keep on checking these stories, don’t leave anything unchecked! Daily activities break down helps you put everything “into perspective”

Yes, I'm still checking everything. No more waiting, just looking.

Experience can be found, but can an experiencer of experience be found?

Not so far. The expectation of finding anyone has diminished greatly. It's just an imaginary little man in the head, in a kind of dream.

So is the illusion clear or not??? Do you need more clarification or pointing? You seem to be avoiding the big fat YES ;)

YES! It is clear....The "self" is a kind of illusion or story. It seems to be slowly receding leaving....what.?..in it's wake.

Thank You,
Love
Peter

[poppyseed]

Hi Peter
It's such a pleasure reading your reply! It gives me so much joy! :)

We have some traditional final questions. Would you like to answer those?

Love
Rali