Looking for the Guide Taran

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:52 am

Hi V
Thank you.
Well it is good to keep looking until every part of you is convinced by this realisation.
I’m confused here. If there’s no me to be convinced - how can I be convinced. ? There’s only thought content - which I assume can’t be convinced - can only change. ?
Great! Well understood... if you keep LOOKING realisation WILL happen.
How else can I describe things and write to you without using I ? even though I know that ‘I’ is a thought construct I still need to write and say ‘I’ in order to be understood surely? Don’t I?
It needs now to be about investigating the thought content, and being clear about that, rather than it appearing that you are being pulled into the story.
Discerning when a person is actually just writing in order to express, or writing from a place of identifying with an "I" when guiding, can be difficult for us guides. Language is important. Try saying and writing "confusion is arising at this moment', for example, instead of "I am confused". Even by saying this to yourself, you are no longer reifying that there is an "I' that is doing, saying, feeling and thinking. Of course, when you go about your daily life, you will have to use "I"...but see how it feels to write it without using I, me or mine.

See how the following exercise feels when you do it.

You will need pen and paper and about 20 minutes for this exercise. It examines the way in which the mind labels experience.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?
I do get this (that there’s no I ) because I can actually remember times of DE when I was coming into form - before I had that thought construct. (But maybe the remembering us also thought content?) I do seem to remember when there was no sense of an I though - Just DE. Doing this LU process is reminding me of that time. And when I remember that time I really get it. It’s this just thought content arising though???? Confused?
if it doesn’t exist in this moment in DE, then it is a thought construct.
If thought says that you saw a spectacular ‘sunrise’ yesterday…is that sunrise experience as you presently find it? No…so it is just thought story i.e. ‘imagination’. If however, the colours labelled spectacular ‘sunrise’ is experience as you presently find it (i.e. now), then thought is pointing to actual experience as you presently find it (i.e. your direct, actual experience). In other words the colour that thought is referring to as a 'sunrise' is what is actually appearing now. Thought either points to actual experience as you presently find it...or it is pointing to thoughts about thought, since the ‘sunrise’ is not the current experience, so it only equates to story...thought fluff/imagination – thoughts about thoughts.
This is doing my head in!
This is another thought construct. Can you find a head in DE? : - )

There is no "I" that is looking. Can you find the "I" that is looking or is looking simply happening?
Looking is simply happening. I can’t find the I that is looking.
Fab
But thought content is sticky and is clearly attached to certain ideas!
Says what exactly?
I’m not sure I understand your question (?)
Thought content keeps arising
Exactly – thought content keeps arising – but acknowledge it as such.
Thought is sticky when it is attached to an emotion. And the DE of an emotion is simply sensation + label. The thoughts about the emotion, of what is causing the seeming emotion is content.
the thought that is sticky in this case is that ‘there is a need to have an I (even if it’s just as a construct, which it clearly is - I do know this) in order to be in the world’. This thought is attached to an emotion, and this particular emotion has been born out of a large investment (of time and money)
Well that investment has been useful for you UNTIL now. “Waterwings” are useful to a child learning to swim, but eventually they’re no longer needed. The information will still be useful in certain circumstances, e.g. in communication with those not interested in awakening. But at the start of this process we said “Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation.” And this is why.... such beliefs are going to hold you back.
in the idea of ‘I’ being an essential element required for psychological and spiritual development.
Exactly it is just an IDEA.

It seems that you are waiting for the direct experience of no self. There is no direct experience of no self...it is simply a realisation that you are not as you thought yourself to be. There seems to be something that is going through the motions of living...we aren't denying that...we just don't know what it is. We have previously believed that it is a person that resides in the body that is navigating life as a separate autonomous finite being that suffers. This is what you are at LU to see through...the idea of being a separate autonomous independent self. We have no idea what anything really is, and being in the "I don't know" space is the best place to be. Once you have identified as a something, you have identified yourself, once again, as limited finite something and with that identification comes unease i.e. suffering.
Even as I write this I’m aware it’s not true
good
AND aware the sticky attachment is strong. What to do?!
Have another look at the thoughts..... really LOOK each time a seemingly disturbing thought or sticky thoughts appears and check to see:
If you made that particular thought appear?
If you wanted that thought to appear in the first place?
If you chose that thought to appear?
If you have ANYTHING to do with any thoughts?
so the attachment must be thought content too
¬¬ What do you find in DE? Can you find any “attachment”?
Let me know how it goes.
Have a lovely day
Taran x
No thought - no problem. (Byron Katie)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:44 pm

Hi Taran
This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:
1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
my first impulse is to answer that the second answer - with without the I is truer - but on reflection they are both equal - either way the DE is the DE
2. What is here without labels?

only verbs relating to DE of the senses
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labels describe DE but don't effect the experience (DE)
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

There was more stillness with part 2 - The body seemed more settled and free. ....more allowed.
This is doing my head in!
This is another thought construct. Can you find a head in DE? : - )

no
so the attachment must be thought content too
¬¬ What do you find in DE? Can you find any “attachment”?

there's nothing in DE other than DE - there is no attachment in DE

Thanks Taran
Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:31 pm

Hi V

Thank you for your responses, one here to look at:
2. What is here without labels?
only verbs relating to DE of the senses
It maybe that the question wasn't clear enough, but can you find 'verbs' in your direct experience? Please LOOK again.

If the label "I" wasn't here, what is here? If there were no labels of any kind, what is here?

And please don't answer from thought. LOOK .... without labels, what is here?

To help you with this pointer.... let's look at a table and for the sake of this experiment, let's say it is the colour brown.
Now totally ignore the label "table" and you are left with "brown".
Totally ignore the label "brown" and you are left with the label "colour".
Now ignore the label "colour" and what are you left with?

Now, look at what you consider the "I" to be. When you remove the label "I", what is here?

I look forward to hearing
Taran x
No thought - no problem. (Byron Katie)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:03 am

Hi Taran

Thank you for your reply
I am not sure that I understand your questions in the last two posts or your responses in the last post but I will try to answer the questions ...

2. What is here without labels?
only verbs relating to DE of the senses
It maybe that the question wasn't clear enough, but can you find 'verbs' in your direct experience? Please LOOK again.
'verbs' aren't in DE. tasting touching seeing hearing only describe (or label? is that what you mean by label?) DE
what I meant by 'verbs' is DE - described by hearing tasting looking touching - so what is left without labels is DE
If the label "I" wasn't here, what is here? If there were no labels of any kind, what is here?
nothing is here
To help you with this pointer.... let's look at a table and for the sake of this experiment, let's say it is the colour brown.
Now totally ignore the label "table" and you are left with "brown".
Totally ignore the label "brown" and you are left with the label "colour".
Now ignore the label "colour" and what are you left with?
nothing left except DE / looking

Thanks
Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:01 pm

Hi V
Sorry if things haven’t been clear
'verbs' aren't in DE
Good!
what I meant by 'verbs' is DE - described by hearing tasting looking touching
ok
If the label "I" wasn't here, what is here? If there were no labels of any kind, what is here?
nothing is here

So the room is empty? There’s a void?
Or is it that everything is purely appearing without labels?

Spend the day trying to be with “things” (without labels). Then later give me a few examples of your experience.

e.g. looking at a “table”.....the experience was....

Keep it simple
have fun
Taran x
No thought - no problem. (Byron Katie)

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:03 pm

Hi V

Sorry - posting again - as the last attempt was coloured/quoted unclearly

Sorry if I haven't been clear enough.
'verbs' aren't in DE
Good!
what I meant by 'verbs' is DE - described by hearing tasting looking touching
ok
If the label "I" wasn't here, what is here? If there were no labels of any kind, what is here?
nothing is here
So the room is empty? There’s a void?
Or is it that everything is purely appearing without labels?

Spend the day trying to be with “things” (without labels). Then later please give me a few examples of your experience.


e.g. looking at a “table”.....the experience was....

Keep it simple
have fun
Taran x
No thought - no problem. (Byron Katie)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:57 pm

Hi Taran

Sorry for the delayed reply. As you know from our conversion I have had a busy weekend. Have been attending to your suggestion of no labels often though....
So the room is empty? There’s a void?
no
Or is it that everything is purely appearing without labels? yes
Spend the day trying to be with “things” (without labels). Then later please give me a few examples of your experience.
when I am with things without labels there is just DE - sitting walking looking touching etc

When I turned to look at a book but without the label 'book' I was more aware of my direct experience of eyes opening, eyes turning, eyes looking. Not sure if I was supposed to take the label off eyes as well as 'book' so I tried it without any labels and I found there was just , looking, turning, touching, listening etc

I am enjoying this mindful practice. It is as if a weight seems to get lifted away when in this kind of DE - but that could be just a thought content and I know it isn't exactly what you were asking for.

I hope you had a good weekend.
Vx

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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:16 pm

Hi V

Yes thanks good weekend, I hope your busy weekend went well. No worries re delay.
when I am with things without labels there is just DE - sitting walking looking touching etc

Good, well seen
When I turned to look at a book but without the label 'book' I was more aware of my direct experience of eyes opening, eyes turning, eyes looking. Not sure if I was supposed to take the label off eyes as well as 'book' so I tried it without any labels and I found there was just looking, turning, touching, listening etc
‘book’ is fine, observing the senses in operation in good.
Is ‘turning’ available in DE?
Where was the “I found”, “I tried” “I turned”....who or what is that?

I am enjoying this mindful practice.
Glad “you’re” enjoying it. However, this isn’t mindfulness practice, you have to look deeper to see the bigger picture. Metaphorically speaking, in a mindfulness practice you could see a patterned poster on the wall.... in really looking deeper you might see a 3D image in that. This process requires deep observation, into EXACTLY what is happening, not what you THINK is happening.
Is an “I” required for enjoyment to happen? Does an “I” perform any of those sensory experiences you mentioned above ‘seeing’ ‘hearing’ ‘touching’ etc?
It is as if a weight seems to get lifted away when in this kind of DE – but that could be just a thought content and I know it isn't exactly what you were asking for.
Yes, it might be thought content but it will feel “ like the weight is lifting”... this is good to know and also to share with me. Thank you
So why does it feel like a weight is lifting.....what was actually missing in those experiences?

Before moving forward, let’s have another look at the thought exercise.
Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.


Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?


Let me know how it goes.
Taran x
No thought - no problem. (Byron Katie)

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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:05 pm

Hi Taran
When I turned to look at a book but without the label 'book' I was more aware of my direct experience of eyes opening, eyes turning, eyes looking. Not sure if I was supposed to take the label off eyes as well as 'book' so I tried it without any labels and I found there was just looking, turning, touching, listening etc
‘book’ is fine, observing the senses in operation in good.
Is ‘turning’ available in DE?
no - it's not one of the senses
Where was the “I found”, “I tried” “I turned”....who or what is that?
there was no 'I' to be found in 'I found' etc

Glad “you’re” enjoying it. However, this isn’t mindfulness practice, you have to look deeper to see the bigger picture. Metaphorically speaking, in a mindfulness practice you could see a patterned poster on the wall.... in really looking deeper you might see a 3D image in that. This process requires deep observation, into EXACTLY what is happening, not what you THINK is happening.
Is an “I” required for enjoyment to happen?
no
Does an “I” perform any of those sensory experiences you mentioned above ‘seeing’ ‘hearing’ ‘touching’ etc?
non
It is as if a weight seems to get lifted away when in this kind of DE – but that could be just a thought content and I know it isn't exactly what you were asking for.
Yes, it might be thought content but it will feel “ like the weight is lifting”... this is good to know and also to share with me. Thank you
So why does it feel like a weight is lifting.....what was actually missing in those experiences?
The idea of 'I'. Or to put it another way - thought content around 'I' is missing

Before moving forward, let’s have another look at the thought exercise.
Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.
Where are they coming from and going to?
no idea. They just arise and fall
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
no
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
no
Can you predict your next thought?
no
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
no
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
no
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
no
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
no
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
no
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
thoughts just arise and fall - I can't see any logical or illogical order

Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:44 am

Hi V

Thank you - great answers.

Please give a step-by-step description on how 'you' looked to see that there was no "I" to be found in "I found", "I tried" and "I turned". What did 'you' do in order to see this?

Look forward to hearing.

Taran x
No thought - no problem. (Byron Katie)

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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:16 am

Hi Taran
Please give a step-by-step description on how 'you' looked to see that there was no "I" to be found in "I found", "I tried" and "I turned". What did 'you' do in order to see this?
Oh gosh this seems like a really difficult question to answer!

But to try to answer your question - I suppose I was looking for a director or a controller Or a decision maker. But each time I tried looking at what had made that occur (ie what had made found tired and turned) all I found was a thought and thought Content. ‘Found’ ‘tried’ and ‘turned’ are labels - thought content.

So I looked behind the thought content/labels and searched to find the ‘I’ that was directing those labels and there was nothing other than thought and thought content there either.

‘I’ being another thought content. A concept or thought construct. I couldn’t find a controller or ‘I’ - so then I just focused on the DE - for example with ‘I turned’ I just took away the turned and experienced the sound sight and physical sensations of DE. Then I did it again and looked hard for the I. Again I only found DE.

What I’ve noticed in answering this question of yours is that a feeling of nausea arises. It’s as if I’m searching fir something that’s not there I feel sick.... similar to how one might feel on a fairground ride when there nothing to hold on to because everything is moving so fast and there’s disorientation. All thought content I know.... but I don’t know how else to explain sk thing to you other that using thought content.

This is really so difficult to explain. How does one explain something so intangible?!

V x

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:59 am

Hi V
Thank you for your response.
‘I’ being another thought content. A concept or thought construct. I couldn’t find a controller or ‘I’ - so then I just focused on the DE - for example with ‘I turned’ I just took away the turned and experienced the sound sight and physical sensations of DE. Then I did it again and looked hard for the I. Again I only found DE.

Yes, yes, yes! All that is ever found is what is appearing as DE from moment to moment. Wonderful!

So, can you say with 100% certainty that the "I" as is thought to be doesn't exist?

Taran x
No thought - no problem. (Byron Katie)

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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:54 am

Hi Taran
So, can you say with 100% certainty that the "I" as is thought to be doesn't exist?
I question whether anything can ever be said with 100% certainty. I accept that I am limited in experience and knowledge. I am not an ‘all knowing’ and ‘all seeing’ being so can only speak from the experience I have so far.

Speaking from that place, I can say with 100% certainty that the ‘I’ appears to be a concept and construct, created by thought and held within thought content.

As far as I’m able to see at this point in time, I can say with certainty that the ‘I’ doesn’t actually exist anywhere else other than within thought content.

Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:32 am

Hi V
So, can you say with 100% certainty that the "I" as is thought to be doesn't exist?
I question whether anything can ever be said with 100% certainty. I accept that I am limited in experience and knowledge. I am not an ‘all knowing’ and ‘all seeing’ being so can only speak from the experience I have so far.
What has an all knowing and all seeing being got to do with looking to see that the separate self is unfindable? You either can find a separate self or you can’t?

Where is the confusion and uncertainty in that?
Ideas which have no foundation in direct experience are beliefs. So what belief are you holding onto? (we need to know and examine it)

What I exactly is it that is limited in experience and knowledge? Where does that “I” reside? Where is that “I” located.


What is the DE of .....
“I question whether anything can ever be said with 100% certainty. I accept that I am limited in experience and knowledge. I am not an ‘all knowing’ and ‘all seeing’ being so can only speak from the experience I have so far.”
When you hear a sound, are you not 100% sure that it is sound?
When you see colour, are you not 100% sure that it is colour?
When a sensation is arises, are you not 100% sure that it is sensation?
And are you not 100% sure when taste and smell arise that they are taste and smell?
Are you not 100% sure when a thought arises that it is a thought?
Are you not 100% sure of your actual direct experience?

What is the DE of a person?
Colours and shapes - which thought labels 'my body'
Sound - which thought labels 'my voice, me breathing'
Taste - which thought labels 'taste from inside of my mouth'
Smell - which thought labels as 'my sweat'
Sensation - which thought labels as ''heart beat' or 'me sitting in a chair' or ‘me walking’
Thoughts - which thought labels as 'my thoughts'
No matter how thought labels what is - it is never other than sight, sound, taste, smell, sensation or thought. Is it? If yes, if there is something else too – What? What is it?


So what is it that you need to experience in order to be 100% certain that no separate self exists?

Speaking from that place, I can say with 100% certainty that the ‘I’ appears to be a concept and construct, created by thought and held within thought content.

Speaking from what place? Are you in two places? There is no speaking from any place. Speaking from a place is simply a thought. The bottom line is, you either can find a separate self or you can’t. So if you cannot be 100% certain…period that there is no separate self, then the thread ends here because you are hedging your bets. You are giving yourself a safety net, just in case you are wrong because there is a payoff to being the idea of a separate self.

As far as I’m able to see at this point in time, I can say with certainty that the ‘I’ doesn’t actually exist anywhere else other than within thought content.

So when does the “I” exist?
If you can only find an “I” in thought content, then where is the “I” that questions....
whether anything can ever be said with 100% certainty. I accept that I am limited in experience and knowledge. I am not an ‘all knowing’ and ‘all seeing’ being so can only speak from the experience I have so far”?

I look forward to hearing
Taran x
No thought - no problem. (Byron Katie)

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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:05 am

Hi Taran
What has an all knowing and all seeing being got to do with looking to see that the separate self is unfindable? You either can find a separate self or you can’t?
I have not been able to find a separate self
Where is the confusion and uncertainty in that?
Ideas which have no foundation in direct experience are beliefs. So what belief are you holding
onto? (we need to know and examine it)
There are many things I’ve not seen and experienced in my DE and yet I believe they do exist beyond my experience because new discoveries are made every day

I believe there is no separate self and my DE confirms that

It’s only thought content that questions that belief
What I exactly is it that is limited in experience and knowledge? Where does that “I” reside? Where is that “I” located.
It is not an I
I don’t believe in a separate self other than in thought content
When you hear a sound, are you not 100% sure that it is sound?
When you see colour, are you not 100% sure that it is colour?
When a sensation is arises, are you not 100% sure that it is sensation?
And are you not 100% sure when taste and smell arise that they are taste and smell?
Are you not 100% sure when a thought arises that it is a thought?
Are you not 100% sure of your actual direct experience?
Yes I’m sure
What is the DE of a person?
Colours and shapes - which thought labels 'my body'
Sound - which thought labels 'my voice, me breathing'
Taste - which thought labels 'taste from inside of my mouth'
Smell - which thought labels as 'my sweat'
Sensation - which thought labels as ''heart beat' or 'me sitting in a chair' or ‘me walking’
Thoughts - which thought labels as 'my thoughts'
No matter how thought labels what is - it is never other than sight, sound, taste, smell, sensation or thought. Is it? If yes, if there is something else too – What? What is it?
Thought labels DE
So what is it that you need to experience in order to be 100% certain that no separate self exists?
From where I stand or exist in my DE - I am 100% certain
So when does the “I” exist?
If you can only find an “I” in thought content, then where is the “I” that questions....
I thought content.

In the previous post I was simply sharing my thought content. I thought that was what you were wanting rather than me answering simply with a yes or a no. Perhaps I should have made that clearer somehow?

Vx


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