Guidance for deep looking

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:39 am

Hi Mike,
Sometimes I find myself in a situation where anxiety (or sensations I label as anxiety) jump up without any verbal At the time there are no words (that I am aware of) saying this is fear/anxiety or anything else - just the immediate reaction. thoughts (that i am aware of). For example someone might say something to me at work that triggers sensations. I feel physical sensation also after the expression in another person's face changes.
OK, so there are no thoughts labelling it ‘fear’ or ‘anxiety’, but there is a thought reaction to what the other said, or to their facial expression, like: ‘he doesn’t like me’, or ‘doesn’t agree with me’, or ‘thinks that I’m stupid’, or ‘he is angry with me’, or whatever.

So the reaction is not directly to the person’s facial expression or words, but rather to my own thoughts ot how I interpret the other person’s words and facial expressions. I interpret what does MEAN TO ME, or ABOUT ME, and since interpretations are negative, hence the contracted sensations in the body.

Just notice this. Watch very closely. And notice, that as soon as there is a contraction in the body, a person or a situation has been already interpreted as something bad or not good to me.

There might be some verbal thoughts there that I am not aware of (too fast to follow?) - but it seems to be that there is a trigger (like someone saying something or the change in a facial expression that triggers these sensations following some kind of judgement or labeling of what I'm seeing as good or bad. It all seems to happen in an instant so maybe that's why I'm not aware of any words?
Yes, this is what I’m talking about.

Others’ facial expressions, are just that, just facial expressions.
I am the one that interpret those as something bad TO ME.
I am the one who has a problem with those expressions.
Since I believe that those expressions MEAN something ABOUT ME.
And because of this, there is a bodily reaction, like a contracted sensation, called anxiety, fear, sadness, or anger, or disappointment, etc.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:56 am

Hi Vivien

I enjoyed talking to you today :) Thanks for your help.

I thoughts I'd just try and summarize the main things we looked at just to make sure I've understood you :)

First thing - Thoughts are not reality. Reality is what can be sensed - what can be seen, heard, felt, smelt and tasted.

Thoughts exist, they happen but the content is not real. THIS IS IMPORTANT.

If I close my eyes and imagine a cup of coffee in as much detail as I can - imagining for example a small blue cup with a white interior, half full with milky frothy coffee then open my eyes there in nothing there.

I can't see any coffee cup. I can't touch it and I can't smell the coffee. Its not there. And yes I understand that it was never there.

Reality can be verified by the senses.

And the same applies to thoughts about my life situation.

If I read a work email that says my work may stop in the next few months thoughts pop up imagining bad scenarios. I won't have money. I won't be able to pay the mortgage. I will get into debt. I might have to take on work I really don't like.

Then there are physical contractions in the body - in the neck and shoulders, legs etc and more thoughts.

I believe that the physical contractions are triggered by the thoughts - because those worry thoughts often precede the contractions. But I don't have direct evidence for this.

And right now if I think about not having any work or money I know this is not reality. Right now I am working. I have food and shelter. I have money to pay the mortgage. So right now those thoughts are fantasy.

Is it helpful to think about possible future problems in order to avoid them?

If there is no decision maker then I'm not sure what to say about this. Thoughts might come up about the imagined future along with worries. Decisions will get made without a decision maker. And the decision to plan/worry or not will happen without a me to do it - even if the thought I am doing this persists.

If I write : I believe that thinking about the future is helpful the sentence doesn't really make sense. The future is imagined. There is no separate I to believe something. Thinking happens.

But as you say there is still suffering (because of the confusion about thoughts being real - including the I thought) and there is a desire to stop suffering.



What I'm going to practice.

Looking at the difference between thoughts (imagination) and reality.

Looking for the I/me the controller in my experience (for example right now I can sense arms/legs etc and can ask is that me the I the one controlling).

Practicing watching my experience like a movie.

Thanks again!
Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:34 am

Hi Mike,

I'm glad you've found our conversation helpful :) Yes, you did a great summary.

Get back to me in a few days and we will see then how to proceed.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:39 am

Hi Vivien

Just thought I’d get back to you and see where to go from here.

I feel like going back to focusing on asking where is the I and who is doing this thought is maybe the way to go.

It helps a lot to have you prompting me though 😊

Thanks again
Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:01 am

Hi Mike,
I feel like going back to focusing on asking where is the I and who is doing this thought is maybe the way to go.
The thing is that a non-existing fictional character cannot be found in reality. So how can we discover that there is no actual self? By NOTICING what is HERE NOW.

So notice what is presently here.
Notice all the sounds that are here. Sensations are also here. Notice the colors and shapes. The taste in your mouth.
You can notice that thoughts are coming and going. They are also happening. The body is here too.

But is there a me/Mike here in this very moment?
Or there are only thoughts ABOUT Mike?

What can you notice? Can you notice a me? Can you notice Mike?
Or you can only ever have THOUGHT OF me and Mike?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:21 am

I would like to add something.

There is ALREADY no Mike or me in actuality.
This is already the case, and it’s just waiting for you to NOTICE it, in this present moment.

It's not something to discover in the future.
It can only ever be noticed in this present experience, now.
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:13 am

Hi Vivien
The thing is that a non-existing fictional character cannot be found in reality. So how can we discover that there is no actual self? By NOTICING what is HERE NOW.

So notice what is presently here.
Notice all the sounds that are here. Sensations are also here. Notice the colors and shapes. The taste in your mouth.
You can notice that thoughts are coming and going. They are also happening. The body is here too.

But is there a me/Mike here in this very moment?
ok right now there are sounds of a car driving past the window, and now another. The sound starts quietly gets louder then fades again. Now there are no cars just the sound of my fingers tapping on the keyboard and a bird outside the window.

Now another car and another going past quietly. Now more. They make a whosing sound as they pass by.

Along with these sounds are thoughts about other car noises I've heard a few minutes ago.

Now its quiet again.

Now a bird singing.

Right now cars are passing still, but my attention passes to sensations (this happened spontaneously).

Now before I can pay attention to sensations I hear and see my wife (who was sleeping with my daughter last night) getting up.

Now my attention goes back to sensations.

I'm in bed about to get up. My legs and torso are covered by the duvet so I can't see them. I can feel sensations of my body but they don't correspond to what I see. If I close my eyes I can't feel the fingers in my hand - when I open them I can see fingers, skin, nails and a thousand different patterns on the skin.

Throughout this process there are thoughts - (I'm looking back in the past to report them).

I need to get up soon, have some work to do, not sure whether to post this to Vivien no or write some more later then post.

If I look for me - it usually come back to me the sensations of muscles in my face changing to make expressions conveyign different emotions or the voice in my head commenting.

There is a belief - that this is me.

The "me" seems to be s knot of muscular tension somewhere behind my face.

There is also a belief (still) that this I needs to do things to look after itself and others.

Looking now at what is here do I see an I? A me that is in control?

Reporting back from a few second ago.

The internal voice stopped the sense of me remained. When at looked at this sense of me I found contratced sensations in the face (my expression), some sensation of knot of muscle and some kind of unstated belief that this is me.

As I look I can see that the sensations themselves are not me - but there is a belief I think that I am coming through them.

I will continue to look at this today. In the times when I think I need to act.

...

The comments you made about there never being a separate me - and that this can only be disovered in the now - yes that helps ++

And a question about thoughts/imagination. Yes I can see that they are not real in the way that what I can sense is but it seems that they refer to what is real - like planning /worrying about possible future events.


Got to go now Vivien
Thanks again for your help - if I persist I can see this.

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:01 am

Hi Mike,

You did a nice looking :)
As I look I can see that the sensations themselves are not me - but there is a belief I think that I am coming through them.
You are coming through a sensation? How would that be possible? Do you see that this is just an idea and not reality?
And the decision to plan/worry or not will happen without a me to do it - even if the thought I am doing this persists.
How do you know that planning won’t happen without an I?
Can you find an I in any planning? Or planning just happens on its own?

Are you managing what is happening?
Does wanting to control = control?
Are you managing wanting?
So can you lose control that you never had?
And a question about thoughts/imagination. Yes I can see that they are not real in the way that what I can sense is but it seems that they refer to what is real - like planning /worrying about possible future events.
If I say: “there are black letters on the screen right now, and there is an awareness of them” – then these thoughts are referring to something that is real. Why? Because there are LITERALLY black letters on the screen, and their presence is known in this very moment.

But is the thought of worrying about the future refer to something real? Is the imagined future real?
How could any thought about the future refer to something that is real?
Isn’t future in itself is an imagination?

Is future here now? If not, then what is it if not an imagination?


Worry never ever about something that is real. Worry is always about a fantasy.

You even say: “planning/worrying about POSSIBLE future events”.

Can you see that a possibility is not something that is here now?
Can you see that real is what is here now in this very moment?


A possibility is always just a fantasy.
Possibility means that it’s not happening now.
What is not happening now, is not real.
Since what is not happening now, is just a thought fantasy, and not reality.
Can you see this?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:52 am

Hi Vivien
You did a nice looking :)
As I look I can see that the sensations themselves are not me - but there is a belief I think that I am coming through them.

You are coming through a sensation? How would that be possible? Do you see that this is just an idea and not reality?
Lying here now there a bunch of thoughts coming up and sensations and sounds. When I ask where am I in all this my attention goes back to the sensations in my face and the emotions linked to them.

Thoughts and emotions are reflected in the sensations /contractions of the muscles in my face.

Right now looking at the sensations themselves I can feel my mouth held a little tight, some tension around the eyes - now relaxing as I bring attention to it.

It must be that I think I am the thinker and feeler of emotions and that these changes in tension in the face and the internal voice represent that.

Again looking now at the sensations in my face there is some resistance (my attention pulled away to thoughts about later in the day) - but looking again yes they are just sensations. I can see that the fact that they can be observed means they cannot be me (the controller).

But I think there is some resistance/fear here could you help me look at this again Vivien?
And the decision to plan/worry or not will happen without a me to do it - even if the thought I am doing this persists.

How do you know that planning won’t happen without an I?

ok looking at worrying - thinking which I'm doing right now.

Thoughts - If I want to go running today I should get ready now. Its good for me to socialize but also a bit annoying at times and I want to finish writing this entry and surely that is more important. But its better that I see people and I'm worried about my daughter as she is an only child and want to be sure she is happy etc etc


With the thinking is a tightness in the tongue and throat. Looking now I can see this isn't me.

Looking back I can see the thoughts came up by themselves - but still there is a belief in me worrying/thinking.
Can you find an I in any planning? Or planning just happens on its own?


All I can find is sensations contractions thoughts and emotions - in the middle of thinking/worrying its is if the worrying/thinking is all there is (like "I" am in a trance).

But still the belief in an I persists (although it weakens the more intensly I look)

Are you managing what is happening?
There is a belief that I am. There is some kind of resistance here I think - maybe some fear of letting go. The thought - even if I can't see myself in control it must be there somewhere and fear what will happen if there is no me to control things.

Maybe it is good to look at this fear again if its blocking me from accepting/seeing this?
Does wanting to control = control?
no I can see that it doesnt.
Are you managing wanting?
no
So can you lose control that you never had?
I see this at times briefly - my arm moves by itself. A thought pops up - it is seen and taken as belonging to a me and action is taken. Sometimes I can look in the mirror as I am shaving and see the actions just happening. I see the face there and it isn't me.
But mostly I still believe in control - there must be some resistance to it?

If I say: “there are black letters on the screen right now, and there is an awareness of them” – then these thoughts are referring to something that is real. Why? Because there are LITERALLY black letters on the screen, and their presence is known in this very moment.

But is the thought of worrying about the future refer to something real? Is the imagined future real?
the future is never experienced.

Its not here.

It is never here.

Right now I can see that. :)
How could any thought about the future refer to something that is real?
It couldn't but there is a deep habit/belief in cause and effect. I do this and this will happen. I do more work earn more money and will have more savings in the bank for example. Can both be true?
Isn’t future in itself is an imagination?
Wow - yes what else could it be - but still this belief/fear holds on - but looser right now. Let me look some more today.
Is future here now? If not, then what is it if not an imagination?
No no future here now. Future is just a word. It refers to what we imagine will happen and is reinforced by memories (thoughts) about an imagined past.

This is kind of mind blowing actually the more I dwell on it.
Worry never ever about something that is real. Worry is always about a fantasy.

You even say: “planning/worrying about POSSIBLE future events”.

Can you see that a possibility is not something that is here now?

yes I can see that

Can you see that real is what is here now in this very moment?
yes
A possibility is always just a fantasy.
Possibility means that it’s not happening now.
What is not happening now, is not real.
Since what is not happening now, is just a thought fantasy, and not reality.
Can you see this?
yes right now I can

Thanks again Vivien

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Sun Oct 04, 2020 11:16 am

Hi Mike,
Thoughts and emotions are reflected in the sensations /contractions of the muscles in my face.
I wouldn’t say that thoughts and emotions are actually reflected in sensations and contractions.
Rather, when a thought is believed to be true, it’s automatically followed by emotions, and contracted sensations.
So the contraction is there because you take the thought for granted, for something that is actually true.
If you have a thought that there is a lion with you in the room and the lion is about the kill you, and you believe this thought, it’s natural to react with emotions and contracted sensations.
It’s the result of believing at thought to be an actual experience, instead of seeing it to be just an imagination.
Again looking now at the sensations in my face there is some resistance (my attention pulled away to thoughts about later in the day) - but looking again yes they are just sensations. I can see that the fact that they can be observed means they cannot be me (the controller).
But I think there is some resistance/fear here could you help me look at this again Vivien?
Is this fear come with the assumption that if there is no separate self, then you don’t exist at all?

Just notice the sense of existence, the sense of aliveness, the sense of being conscious. These all point to the same phenomenon of knowing that there is existence, that I exist

Life is here, but you are not separate form it.

You are not what you THINK you are. You are not a separate self being in charge of life. Life is, but without a controller.
And when this is recognized, nothing is lost. Actually there I something that can be lost, but not what you think it is. What can be lost is the fear and anxiety of trying to defend myself from the dangers of life.

Life is, you are.

Just check, everything is happening, there is order and pattern. There is noticing, knowing of the movement. And there is stillness underneath all movement. That openness that allows all movement.

There is certainty in existence. Being aware is always on.

Can you ever not be here?
Can you ever leave this moment?
If you say, then where do you go?
Can you fall out from this moment?
Can you fall out from existence?
Can you stop being aware?

ok looking at worrying - thinking which I'm doing right now.
Is worrying is something you do, or you only ever aware of it?
Do you make the choice to worry? Or worrying thoughts appear on their own accord, and you just aware of them?
Look here now, Is there an I that worries? Or there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT an I that is supposedly worries?

But still the belief in an I persists (although it weakens the more intensly I look)
OK, then please look at this more. Freedom comes from being conscious of what is actually happening.

So just notice what is actually happening.
If there is a thought arguing this, then question that thought.
You don’t have to take thoughts for granted.
Thoughts are not engraved in stone.
You have a right to questions every stressful thought.
There is a belief that I am. There is some kind of resistance here I think - maybe some fear of letting go.
Yes, you are, we are not denying that. You are just not what you think you are.
The only sure things there is that you exists. Existence, aliveness IS.
The thought - even if I can't see myself in control it must be there somewhere and fear what will happen if there is no me to control things.
There is a great freedom in seeing that there is no-one in charge. Everything happens on its own, effortlessly. Just notice that there is no need for a fearful self who is desperately trying to control the uncontrollable. Life take care of it all.
I see this at times briefly - my arm moves by itself. A thought pops up - it is seen and taken as belonging to a me and action is taken. Sometimes I can look in the mirror as I am shaving and see the actions just happening. I see the face there and it isn't me.
Excellent, just keep noticing this. There is a great freedom in just being aware of everything is happening on its own.
It couldn't but there is a deep habit/belief in cause and effect. I do this and this will happen. I do more work earn more money and will have more savings in the bank for example. Can both be true?
Conventionally speaking it is true. But in reality there is no I who works, there is just working happening.
There is no separate self earning money, rather earning money is just showing up effortlessly.
And yes, there could be more savings, but it’s done by no one. And yet it happens.
No no future here now. Future is just a word. It refers to what we imagine will happen and is reinforced by memories (thoughts) about an imagined past.
This is kind of mind blowing actually the more I dwell on it.
Please look into this more. This is important.

I’ve given you lots of pointers this time. Please don’t rush, take you time.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:10 pm

Hi Vivien

Sorry about the delay in replying
Can you ever not be here?
No I’m always here - there’s always knowing except? during sleep
Can you ever leave this moment?
No - attention can be diverted to thoughts instead of reality but I don’t leave this moment
If you say, then where do you go?
No where just attention diverted to thoughts
Can you fall out from this moment?
No
Can you fall out from existence?
No
Can you stop being aware?
No


ok looking at worrying - thinking which I'm doing right now.
Is worrying is something you do, or you only ever aware of it?
There is a belief that I do it but when I look I can’t find a doer /worrier
Do you make the choice to worry? Or worrying thoughts appear on their own accord, and you just aware of them?
No choice it just happens

Look here now, Is there an I that worries? Or there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT an I that is supposedly worries?
Ok looking now

Sitting in car
Sounds outside cars driving by ignition starting
Ppl talking trolley rattling

Sensations in head face body - pressure feelings

Emotion some frustration

Thoughts lots about what needs to be done today and future and past

Some worrying

Internal voice speaking now reading these words and with that the assumption this is me

Looking at the voice - I am still here when it is silent

But there is a belief it is me speaking somehow

Looking now for the next few thoughts ...

Some thoughts are already underway by the time I have noticed them

I can’t see how I make them

But there is some belief that somehow I still do

Thanks again Vivien

If it’s ok with you I’ll post more frequently as it seems to help keep me looking 😊

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:52 am

Hi Mike,
V: Can you ever not be here?
M: No I’m always here - there’s always knowing except? during sleep
But during deep sleep there is no you at all. There is no Mike at all in deep sleep.
Since the illusion of me/Mike is simply not being fabricated, just as there is no experience of the world either.

Can you see that you are talking about the body, and not about the me/Mike?

Can you accept that there is no me/Mike during deep sleep?

There is a belief that I do it but when I look I can’t find a doer /worrier
So what does the belief of “I’m doing the worrying” belong TO?
What is it exactly in this moment believing this?

V: Look here now, Is there an I that worries? Or there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT an I that is supposedly worries?
M: Ok looking now

Sitting in car
Sounds outside cars driving by ignition starting
Ppl talking trolley rattling

Sensations in head face body - pressure feelings

Emotion some frustration

Thoughts lots about what needs to be done today and future and past

Some worrying

Internal voice speaking now reading these words and with that the assumption this is me

Looking at the voice - I am still here when it is silent

But there is a belief it is me speaking somehow

Looking now for the next few thoughts ...

Some thoughts are already underway by the time I have noticed them

I can’t see how I make them

But there is some belief that somehow I still do
Just notice what happens here. You are describing your experience, which is good, but you are actually avoid looking at the question itself and writing about that.

So please go back to the question, and write about what the question is pointing to.

Look here now, Is there an I that worries? Or there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT an I that is supposedly worries?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:37 am

Hi Vivien


V: Can you ever not be here?
M: No I’m always here - there’s always knowing except? during sleep
But during deep sleep there is no you at all. There is no Mike at all in deep sleep.
Since the illusion of me/Mike is simply not being fabricated, just as there is no experience of the world either.

Can you see that you are talking about the body, and not about the me/Mike?
yes I can see there is no experience of me during sleep.

Can you accept that there is no me/Mike during deep sleep?

ok looking back now all I can say is that I have memories of going to bed and closing my eyes etc last night. And then memories of the sensations of the bed and the air blowing in from the window etc. And memories of thoughts and then memories of waking and vague memories of dreams.

So there is no memory of anything from most of the night - I assume when in deep sleep and not dreaming.

So Mike/me disappears then! The body is there , the brain is there functioning but me/Mike is switched off. Yes there is no experience of me Mike during deep sleep. just a body and brain doing its job.
There is a belief that I do it but when I look I can’t find a doer /worrier

So what does the belief of “I’m doing the worrying” belong TO?
It doesnt belong to anything - it is a thought. I am worrying about the future. Yes it happens now.
No it doesn't belong to anything it is just there: I am worrying.

Something happens - an email from work say
A worry thought appears
Then yes the thought comes that I am worrying.

What is it exactly in this moment believing this?
There is no thing here believing that I am worrying as far as I can see.

What is it that won't let go... I feel I'm getting closer to seeing this properly and keep getting that following these crazy automatic thoughts - believing that there is separate me in control is ridiculous.
So please go back to the question, and write about what the question is pointing to.

Look here now, Is there an I that worries? Or there are only THOUGHTS ABOUT an I that is supposedly worries?

ok thanks - looking now for an I that worries. Right now there are vague worry thoughts popping up about all sorts of things.
I'll wait for the next one...

they just come up - like with other thoughts I'm not always aware of them before they've bene running for a few second so so.

So how can there by an I/me/Mike making them? Same as before when I look for the I that is worrying /thinking my attention goes to the head area and the sensations there - behind the face/eyes in the expressions of the face and the internal voice. None of these are doing the worrying.

The voice might be worrying but is not controlling it as it is it. (the worrying).

Thanks again, Vivien
Best wishes Mike

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Vivien
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:38 am

Hi Mike,
It doesnt belong to anything - it is a thought. I am worrying about the future. Yes it happens now.
No it doesn't belong to anything it is just there: I am worrying.
But what is this I in this very moment that worries?
Is there an I worrying? Or there is only thoughts ABOUT worry, but without a worrier?
Is there an I separate from the perception of worry?

The voice might be worrying but is not controlling it as it is it. (the worrying).
Are you sure about this? Are you sure that the IMAGINED VOICE ‘in the head’ is worrying?
Or this imagined voice is only TALKING ABOUT worry, but in itself is not worrying?

In order for the seeming voice in the head to worry, this voice has to be a living aware entity, which all sorts of abilites, like worrying. But is that so?

When there is a thought ABOUT worrying, is there anything that actually worries?
Or the one who is worrying is just a figment of imagination?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Mike1001
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Re: Guidance for deep looking

Postby Mike1001 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:39 am

Hi Vivien
It doesnt belong to anything - it is a thought. I am worrying about the future. Yes it happens now.
No it doesn't belong to anything it is just there: I am worrying.

But what is this I in this very moment that worries?
right now I am sitting in a cafe - there are intermittent worrying thoughts popping up about different things - along with other thoughts about needing to act to deal with these worries or just wanting to rest and not have to worry.

Who is worrying? Looking now...

I can't find any worrier - as always I find sensations in the face and thoughts about those sensations. A belief that these sensations are me which weakens /goes away when the sensations are looked at.


When I look

worry thoughts just appear
Usually they have been running for at least a few seconds before they are noticed
they come with various physical sensations of tightness labelled as fear

if when I see a worry thought I ask who did that? or did you do that ? the answer is def no.

Is there an I worrying? Or there is only thoughts ABOUT worry, but without a worrier?
Yes where am I? - looking now for the thinker/worrier I find just the same sensations around the face/muscular tension around the mouth and eyes - the internal voice speaking (now as I'm typing).

When I look at the voice for example I can see that it can't be me. It stops and I am still here. So it can't be me.
Is there an I separate from the perception of worry?
No I cant find one
The voice might be worrying but is not controlling it as it is it. (the worrying).

Are you sure about this? Are you sure that the IMAGINED VOICE ‘in the head’ is worrying?
good question - here is my experience there is a thought sometimes in images sometimes in the internal voice. The thought might be about something bad happening in the imagined future - seen as a picture or described in the voice. This sparks off physical contractions and yes it is now the I thought is activated . There is a thought I am worrying/or a belief and that I need to act to protect myself.

So the imagined voice just happens - yes it is not aware of anything. Then the I thought attaches to the worry thought - again I can see this is automatic when i look.
Or this imagined voice is only TALKING ABOUT worry, but in itself is not worrying?
yes it is only talking - automatically.
In order for the seeming voice in the head to worry, this voice has to be a living aware entity, which all sorts of abilites, like worrying. But is that so?
no def not
When there is a thought ABOUT worrying, is there anything that actually worries?
Or the one who is worrying is just a figment of imagination?
yes it is a figment of imagination. The thoughts come up automatically - and thoughts about these thoughts come up automatically. And physical tension labelled as me appears.

I see this more often but still there is some resistance - is it possible to look at this?

thanks again Vivien
best wishes Mike


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