So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

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IstinSkiat
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Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby IstinSkiat » Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:22 am

So just as you were looking around inside a room, look around INSIDE the HEAD.
What do you see inside?
I see thoughts. Many Thoughts. Some come as a logical succession of the previous ones, some are random. And I feel that some thoughts produce feelings inside my chest and belly area. I don't like this ones, they feel heavy and contracted. When there is no feelings in my chest its lighter and expanding. I like it. I see that me liking or disliking something is just a thought on reality, not the reality itself. This realization makes even the heavy feelings to be accepted as they are and the urge to get rid of them lessens. It feels much nicer. I prefer to treat them this way always, but something strong, lets call it a habit kicks in soon after and increases the urge to get rid of them again. It feels painful. Why is this habit doing that? I clearly see that when I accept all as it is it feels much better?...maybe I got carried away from the question, sorry.
So short answer - I see thoughts inside my head.
How does it FEEL to turn around inside the head?

Can you localize the spot where you are standing inside and you are making the 360 degree turn?

And what do you see as you slowly turn around?
What objects are around you as you turn around IN the head?
The feeling part I've already answered.

I can localize this spot in the exact middle of my head. Its so small it doesn't take any real space. But I'm sure it is in there. How else it would be possible to see the thoughts in this exact head, and not in any others heads?
It feels like looking at all 360 degree at the same time.

The objects around it are thoughts. It can see all thoughts simultaneously, but chooses to focus on some and not on others. It usually focuses on the rational ones, the ones that have some linearity and ignores the seemingly random ones.
How big is this point exactly?
I've already answered that
Can a point be FELT?
What is it exactly that is being felt at that location?
Rationally it cant be felt. But I'm sure I feel it there as me. The thing is - I am sure I AM, I EXIST, obviously, so I must have some location right? And the most obvious location for this me, for this I AM is in my head, where else? I know very well the spiritual theory saying "We are all one, we are everywhere, we are GOD and he is omnipresent, not in one spot" but in reality I feel like a spot in the head, something that sees/feels all that is around it, inside the body and outside.
And HOW do you know that this point is a coordinator, to which sensations report?
What is giving this information?
Is this information stored in that localized point in the head?
Or is this just a THOUGHT STORY about a central coordinator being a point in the head?
Is this story actually correspond with the immediate experience?
I know very well that it is JUST a story. Intellectually I'm convinced 100% that this is the case! Absolutely NO doubt!
But I promised to tell you what I experientially feel, and this knowing, as strong as it is, does not result in actually seeing this right here right now. I am aware the last sentence is also just a story. But when I go that route of investigation, I start to feel frustrated. The thoughts in my head start fighting with each other so fast it feels like when Tom and Jerry start a fight in one moment they turn into one sphere, you cant distinguish one from the other.

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Vivien
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Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:51 am

Hi Ivan,

You replied way too quickly. These questions are meant to look for a whole day again and again, and even when the answer seems to be clear, look more.

It’s the repeated and continuous looking at the same thing again and again that brings about the realization.
These quick replies can only come from the intellect. Even if you can’t see it (yet).
The automatic response is what we believe.
I can localize this spot in the exact middle of my head. Its so small it doesn't take any real space. But I'm sure it is in there. How else it would be possible to see the thoughts in this exact head, and not in any others heads?
This is a conceptual answer based on the belief that thoughts are inside the head.

HOW do you know that thoughts are inside the head?
Can you OBSERVE thoughts (literally) being inside the head?
Or is this just an unquestioned assumption?

It feels like looking at all 360 degree at the same time.
You are not taking my pointer literally. You are saying again that “it FEELS LIKE” – and this is the expression I was pointing to in my previous post.

This is a common phrase we say and think, but WITHOUT an ACTUAL FEELING.
Look closely…. The saying that “it feels like” doesn’t contain any actual physical sensation. This is just an expression we use, and we take it for granted, we believe it, without actually investigating if these thoughts are telling the truth.
Ivan, please slow down. Don’t rush.
Slow down, and put aside ALL your thoughts.
Put aside everything you’ve ever learned about this topic.
You have to become like a little child who has no intellectual knowledge about anything.
If your cup is already full with knowledge, there is no room to discover anything new.
It feels like looking at all 360 degree at the same time.
This is a pure fantasy. You cannot say seriously that you can look around inside your head and you can observe all the tissues, blood, ligaments, bones, organs.

Can you see that you are only fantasizing here?
Can you see that it’s impossible to look around inside the head?

The objects around it are thoughts. It can see all thoughts simultaneously, but chooses to focus on some and not on others. It usually focuses on the rational ones, the ones that have some linearity and ignores the seemingly random ones.
You are not doing what I’m asking you to do. You are thinking. And not taking my questions literally.
When I ask you to look around inside the head, I’m asking you to do it literally. I’m not joking around :)
Rationally it cant be felt. But I'm sure I feel it there as me. The thing is - I am sure I AM, I EXIST, obviously, so I must have some location right? And the most obvious location for this me, for this I AM is in my head, where else? I know very well the spiritual theory saying "We are all one, we are everywhere, we are GOD and he is omnipresent, not in one spot" but in reality I feel like a spot in the head, something that sees/feels all that is around it, inside the body and outside.
You are not looking. You are only thinking.
Thinking is an utter dead-end.
If you want to see through the illusion, then this is NOT the way.
I’m pointing you the way, you only have to follow it.
But you cannot follow it if you are strongly holding onto your intellect, and your ideas that I ALREADY KNOW.
V: And HOW do you know that this point is a coordinator, to which sensations report?
What is giving this information?
Is this information stored in that localized point in the head?
Or is this just a THOUGHT STORY about a central coordinator being a point in the head?
Is this story actually correspond with the immediate experience?
I: I know very well that it is JUST a story. Intellectually I'm convinced 100% that this is the case! Absolutely NO doubt!
But I promised to tell you what I experientially feel, and this knowing, as strong as it is, does not result in actually seeing this right here right now. I am aware the last sentence is also just a story. But when I go that route of investigation, I start to feel frustrated. The thoughts in my head start fighting with each other so fast it feels like when Tom and Jerry start a fight in one moment they turn into one sphere, you cant distinguish one from the other.
I have to say it again: you are not looking. You are only thinking.

This is a dead-end.
Pointless.
Useless.
Dead-end.
This is not the way.
You can think about this at the end of your life, and you still won’t get it.
The answer is NOT in thinking.
The answer is in the here and now experience of the 5 senses.

So I’m going to ask you to go back to my previous post, and go through them again and again and again. At least 20 times before replying.

Also, reply to EACH question one-by-one. All of them are pointers for you where to look.
And it’s very easy to miss important pointers when you bulk-reply.
Also take my questions LITERALLY.
None of them are figurative speaking.

And more importantly:

S L O W . . . D O W N . . . R E L A X . . .

STAY HERE WITH THE PRESENT MOMENT EXPERIENCE... DON'T MOVE TO STORY LAND... JUST HERE... NOW....


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
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Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby Vivien » Sun Sep 27, 2020 7:55 am

And by the way, have you actually went into a room and looked around inside?
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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IstinSkiat
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Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby IstinSkiat » Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:18 am

Wow, this replay hit me hard! And I love it!
I will ponder over it all for a while and replay later. You know, you are really good at what you are doing!? Just WOW!

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IstinSkiat
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Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby IstinSkiat » Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:20 pm

Hello Vivien!
Soo, your last reply was very striking to me! It really opened my eyes somehow. Its the whole post, but mainly:
Can you see that you are only fantasizing here?
Can you see that it’s impossible to look around inside the head?
I saw clearly that I was really fantasizing! All of the time, not only when I look inside my head. All of the f...ing time!
I was really seeing all of the reality twisted trough my fantasies! So seeing this was really something new for me. I have had many many realizations during the years, especially the first years on my so called "journey", and in a way I have always KNOWN this, but I have never EXPERIENCED it so far, until now! WOW it such a simple, in your face thing, but at the same time so profound!
Of course my old fellow, the Habit of going out of the now, kicks in all of the time. Or tries to kick in. But most of the times now I see it in the beginning and observe it. And when I do, I feel much calmer and in the moment. Even if I dont feel calm, even if I feel burning, anxiety in my chest, when I just observe it in the now, without the mind comments, its not a problem, its just a warm feeling in my chest. All of the things I heard from Eckhart Tolle trough the years and that I understood perfectly intellectually, now I experience it in real life, not just theory.
So in a few words - everything is normal, like it ever was, but somehow different. I can distinguish reality, from my minds commentary about it.
Today I was traveling in a beautiful countryside and it was stormy and sunny at the same time and it was so beautiful I started to cry as I drive for a moment. And I almost never cry!

It feels like I have to use some effort to "be" in "the now" though. I have to always be vigilant, otherwise the habit takes me away quickly. But I can see that even that is just a story. Even all that I've written in this post is ultimately just a story. Nothing wrong with stories, they are useful for communication, but I dont fully believe in them anymore.

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Vivien
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Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:17 am

Hi Ivan,
I saw clearly that I was really fantasizing! All of the time, not only when I look inside my head. All of the f...ing time!
I was really seeing all of the reality twisted trough my fantasies! So seeing this was really something new for me. I have had many many realizations during the years, especially the first years on my so called "journey", and in a way I have always KNOWN this, but I have never EXPERIENCED it so far, until now! WOW it such a simple, in your face thing, but at the same time so profound!
Yes. Excellent observation :)
It feels like I have to use some effort to "be" in "the now" though.
So what or who is it that is using effort to be in the now? What/who is making effort? Ivan?
And who is it that is can be IN and OUT of now, Ivan, a me, a person?


Look here now.
Where is the one in this very moment who is moving between states?

I have to always be vigilant, otherwise the habit takes me away quickly.

Who is it that has to be vigilant? Ivan / me?
Who is it that is take away from the now? Is it Ivan? A me? A self?
But I can see that even that is just a story. Even all that I've written in this post is ultimately just a story. Nothing wrong with stories, they are useful for communication, but I dont fully believe in them anymore.
Yes, that’s just a story, but you have to investigate this story in the moment when it FEELS to be true. When it FEELS that there is someone being taken away from the now. Unfortunately, it’s not enough to make a conclusion that this is still just a story, if this story FEELS REAL. You have to look and investigate in the moment when it feels real.

Please look with each questions carefully. And reply to them one by one.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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IstinSkiat
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Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby IstinSkiat » Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:00 pm

Hi Vivian!
So what or who is it that is using effort to be in the now? What/who is making effort? Ivan?
At first I would answer "I, Ivan is making effort to notice being in the now". At least it felt like this.. But as you very accurately mentioned earlier -
The saying that “it feels like” doesn’t contain any actual physical sensation. This is just an expression we use, and we take it for granted, we believe it, without actually investigating if these thoughts are telling the truth.
And then I figured it out - I am actually making an effort not to make an effort. Its redundant! Being in the now is the default state, its effortless! Just letting go is far better solution. And it works! I mean, I've tried to let go for ages, but now it just works. Not all of the time, but its looks like its getting there more and more.
And who is it that is can be IN and OUT of now, Ivan, a me, a person?
That's still confusing. I'm always in NOW, not just I but everything is NOW, nothing perceivable is not NOW. So nothing can be out of NOW, there is no out at all in reality, only in thoughts there is.
But life seems just like before here. I live in my thoughts almost all of the time and I feel like a separate person(yeah - that "feel like" expression again...).
The big difference in the last few days is that I don't go down the rabbit hole of past and future anymore. Something is pulling me there constantly(I call it just habit), but I quickly and usually in the very beginning see it and don't engage. I just stop. I see it wont take me to a nicer place than here now, so why bother... I use my brain and thoughts to solve daily problems in life, my job ect., of course. But the moment my thoughts try to pull me in some story(which will most probably end up with feeling of guilt, or depression, or victim-hood) I just snap out of it. Like so. Easy. Its so easy, that it feels useless. But I see that's what my mind tells me, in reality its one of the most useful things I have done in my life!

But...the whole LU forum is to see there is no separate "me", right? And I get it very well conceptually, but in everyday life I constantly act and feel like there is "me", that there is actual Ivan in reality. And I know there is not, but cant turn that knowing in experience.

With gratitude,
Ivan

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Vivien
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Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby Vivien » Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:08 am

Hi Ivan,
But...the whole LU forum is to see there is no separate "me", right?
Yes, isn’t this why you are here, to see that there is no separate me in any shape or form, other than an idea?
I'm always in NOW
You say that I am always IN now.

So what is this I that is IN now?
Is this I here now?
I live in my thoughts almost all of the time and I feel like a separate person(yeah - that "feel like" expression again...).
OK.
So what is the experience of being a separate person?
What is the FEELING of separation?
What is separate from what exactly?
Where does the me end and the not-me starts?
Where is the dividing line?
But I see that's what my mind tells me, in reality its one of the most useful things I have done in my life!
This sounds nice. But there is still a belief that there is someone here, who is separate from life, separate from thoughts, and doesn’t like certain thoughts and feelings, and now doing a practice trying to avoid the unpleasant thoughts and emotions.

So where is this one, who doesn’t like certain thoughts and feelings?
Where is the one that is trying to get rid of them?

Is there an actual person separate from the feeling of guilt? Or when there is a feeling of guilt, then there is just a feeling of guilt without happening to a me, just free-floating without being felt by anyone?

Does the feeling of guilt need a me to happen?

And I know there is not, but cant turn that knowing in experience.
Yes, you can’t, because this is not an intellectual thing.
Reality is NOT in thoughts.
Reality is UNDERNEATH thoughts.
Just what is here now, as it is.
So you have turn your attention to what is here now, instead of THINKING about.

Just notice if there is a me presently here. Is there?



Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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IstinSkiat
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Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby IstinSkiat » Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:04 pm

Hi Vivian
Yes, isn’t this why you are here, to see that there is no separate me in any shape or form, other than an idea?
Yes, yes, YES! I'm here for the full-on truth! Whatever it is!
So what is this I that is IN now?
Is this I here now?
Here now, there are thoughts about that "I". The "I" is not present in any other way. But the believe in it is still present if I'm honest.
So what is the experience of being a separate person?
Its my normal everyday experience. Its the experience I've been trying to see trough, to see its not really true, but for now without any real success. I see things around me, and I see me, separate from them. I see other people, and I see me, separate from them.
What is the FEELING of separation?
Its a contraction in my chest or upper belly. Very unpleasant! Only When I think of oneness, when I imagine oneness, I feel this contraction is melting in a warm and wonderful feeling, I believe its what people call "LOVE", but I only feel it for brief periods until the mind kick in with its separation function and the contraction is back for good(I only use the expression, its not good at all if you ask me!)
What is separate from what exactly?
Well, this "me" separate from everything else. And I know its just a fiction! I can see my mind's ability to turn solid things into peaces just to be able to grasp them. And I know its been doing the exact same thing with reality, shredding it to "me" and other than "me"! And I know in reality its all ONE! But I still live like I'm separate.
Where does the me end and the not-me starts?
The common notion is the border is the skin of the body. Some more "spiritual" people think its the border of their "aura"... I know SO WELL its all BULLISH! How can a skin be a border? I perceive what is happening under the skin! I perceive what is happening out of the skin! So I must be neither IN, nor OUT! I must be everywhere! Its just common seance! But I still believe what almost everyone else believes - My body is me, out of my body is not me! Why??? How can I truly see its bullshit and nevertheless believe in it?!?!?
Where is the dividing line?
Same as above - I really can see there is no dividing line, but still live like the dividing line is my body skin! So frustrating!!!
So where is this one, who doesn’t like certain thoughts and feelings?
Where is the one that is trying to get rid of them?
It still feels like this one is in my head! After directly seeing(thanks to you) that this is just a FICTION! Its just a thought that I believe! How can I unbelieve it?! I was convinced, that after seeing that the snake is actually just a rope, i woudnt be afraid of it anymore in my lifetime! But here I am, afraid as hell! From a ROPE!!! I'm getting really frustrated now, maybe I should calm down and Finnish this post later...

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Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby Vivien » Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:13 am

I'm going to wait with my reply until you finished with the remaining questions.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
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Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:52 am

How things are going? Are you still with me?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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IstinSkiat
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Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby IstinSkiat » Tue Oct 06, 2020 7:38 am

Hi Vivien!
Yes, I'm with you! Very much! I'm thinking about what we talked about very often. My life situation is very complicated and intensive the last few days and I cant find the time to peace my mind and go on with the deep looking. I mean I have the time, last night I slept only for an hour and then I sat on the sofa the whole night. But my thoughts are racing and my body is shaking, I've even had a few panic-attacks and the only thing I can do when I have free time is to watch some TV show of some kind just to put my thoughts out of my intense situation for a while, just to be able to get some much needed rest.
I try to use the situation to practice what you had showed me, but its very hard to stay in the now in this situation. The intense flow of life just drags me along. Or maybe my mind just tells me it is like that and I believe him!?


Thank you so much for staying beside me right now!
Ivan

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Vivien
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Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:45 am

Hi Ivan,
But my thoughts are racing and my body is shaking, I've even had a few panic-attacks and the only thing I can do when I have free time is to watch some TV show of some kind just to put my thoughts out of my intense situation for a while, just to be able to get some much needed rest.
I hear you. But peace is always here, waiting for you to notice it. And it’s here in this moment, under the turmoil. It’s here in any present sound, color, smell, taste, any present sensation.

All anxiety comes in a form of a thought.

And if your focus is on the thought then it can spiral into a big fearful story which creates unpleasant sensations in the body.

Can you just stay with any sensation or emotion that arises?
Not fighting them, not trying to push them away, rather gently holding them. Turning towards them with love and care.

Those emotions and sensations (like the shaking) are here to tell you that you are focusing way too much on thoughts, on stories. They are here to help you to wake up from the dream of your internal movie.

To wake up to the peacefulness of this present experience.
To be awake to what is here now, instead of dreaming the fearful fantasy story and believing it to be true.

Just stay with the body, feel it. Let all sensations be. Just allow them. Hold them gently, lovingly.
They are here to help you. To help you wake up from the internal movie.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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IstinSkiat
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Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby IstinSkiat » Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:56 pm

But peace is always here, waiting for you to notice it. And it’s here in this moment, under the turmoil. It’s here in any present sound, color, smell, taste, any present sensation.
Yes, yes I know that, I try to remember it to myself when things get rough. Sometimes I can feel it and this brings peace for a little while, but more often it can't.
All anxiety comes in a form of a thought.

And if your focus is on the thought then it can spiral into a big fearful story which creates unpleasant sensations in the body.
Yes that's true, but in my case very often I feel anxiety without a hint of a fearful story in my thoughts, just like that, seemingly from nothing and from nowhere.
Can you just stay with any sensation or emotion that arises?
Not fighting them, not trying to push them away, rather gently holding them. Turning towards them with love and care.
That's all I'm left with, after I dont see the thoughts that are causing the sensation.
When I try that sometimes this awful sensation suddenly turns into warm, very cosy feeling. But imideatly after that something in me sees that this is good and wants to turn it into a practice. And the sensations turns to awful again. I cant just let go and accept whatever! I know it feels so good, but something in me cant let me "do" it for long.
They are here to help you. To help you wake up from the internal movie.
I feel about them in the same way, otherwise I would be suicidal, because its so difficult.
But I have some deep deep knowing its all for good at the end.

Vivien, I know that the last few posts are more theoretical and not actually looking. Im sorry for that, I know that only the actual looking gives results, but when I'm so frustrated its hard to just look, thoughts are too distracting in that moment. But I want to get back to direct looking and seeing. I will try my best. I'm so full of spiritual theory but it doesn't serve me anymore, I want to stop searching and start finding.

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Vivien
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Re: So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

Postby Vivien » Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:56 am

Hi Ivan,
Yes that's true, but in my case very often I feel anxiety without a hint of a fearful story in my thoughts, just like that, seemingly from nothing and from nowhere.
You might not notice the thought that is triggering the anxiety. These thoughts are often unconscious, meaning we don’t see them when they arise, we only feel their by-products, the emotions.

Often these thoughts are core beliefs about ourselves, which repeatedly come up and causing disturbance. I sent you a private message regarding this, so please check your inbox.
When I try that sometimes this awful sensation suddenly turns into warm, very cosy feeling.
What happens if you don’t label the sensations neither as ‘awful’, nor ‘warm’ or ‘cosy’?
What happens if you just let them be as they are without calling them anything?

Can you just stay with them while they are there?
Can you just hold them gently and allowing them to be as they are?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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