Seeking no self

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warissem
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Re: Seeking no self

Postby warissem » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:06 am

Hi Bobs

In your last post you answered to these questions :

1) When you say there is still an “I”, is “I” the name you give to existence ?
Bobs, where are you seeing from ?
No, I is not the name I give to existence. I am seeing from a center in my head.
"experience splitting from a center in the brain area" yes that describes it perfectly.

2) You have seen that “I” does not exist through the five senses.
I have? I never said that. The five senses are one (or actually 5) ways to see if something exists, but not the only one.
In a previous post, you said : “So the fact that the 'I' cannot be perceived by the 5 senses is not evidence to me that it does not exist.”


Give answers to each of the questions below :

Bobs, where are you seeing from ?

Exercise to do : imagine a fruit you like the most, close your eyes, imagine the fruit in your hand, you touch it, you feel its texture, you take it to your mouth, you eat a piece of this fruit, you feel the taste of it. Then open your eyes and look at your hands : what do you find ?
The same thing with “you”, “I”, the separate self : there is a sense of it, thoughts about it, stories, … but when you look, what do you see ?

In plain view, there are sights, sounds, smells, tastes, textures, thoughts and the Knowing of all of these. Where are you in all of them? I mean :

Are you a sight ? Are you a sound ? Are you a smell ? Are you a taste ? Are you a texture ? Are you a sensation? Are you a feeling ? Are you a thought ? Look and tell me what are you ? Look at you ?

NB : it is easy to give answers from the mind but you won’t go nowhere. The answer to what you are is not in the mind. It is in the Seeing. You have to Look at you 24/7 and write down what you see. I gave a lot of pointers to look. Instead, you go to thoughts and write back what comes up. Don’t give a reply to say garbage, give a reply after looking and I need to know what is seen. It can last a day, two days or a week. You go alone to a park, or in the forest and look plain view what is going on. Ask : is all that is going on needs a me to happen?

Warissem

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BobS
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Re: Seeking no self

Postby BobS » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:55 am

2) You have seen that “I” does not exist through the five senses.

I have? I never said that. The five senses are one (or actually 5) ways to see if something exists, but not the only one.

In a previous post, you said : “So the fact that the 'I' cannot be perceived by the 5 senses is not evidence to me that it does not exist.”
I said that the 'I' cannot be PERCEIVED through the five senses. I did not say that it does not EXIST through the 5 senses.
Bobs, where are you seeing from ?
Once again, it's a center in the head. All my experience flows out of that. You can say that it is just a thought. To me it is not a thought. Maybe we define thought differently.

Exercise to do : imagine a fruit you like the most, close your eyes, imagine the fruit in your hand, you touch it, you feel its texture, you take it to your mouth, you eat a piece of this fruit, you feel the taste of it. Then open your eyes and look at your hands : what do you find ?
The same thing with “you”, “I”, the separate self : there is a sense of it, thoughts about it, stories, … but when you look, what do you see ?


I'm very familiar with this exercise, and have done it many times. To me, there is no comparison between the fruit example and the "you". The fruit obviously does not exist when I open my eyes, but the "I" is there before, during, and after the exercise. I would agree that I don't "See" the 'I', but I feel it.
In plain view, there are sights, sounds, smells, tastes, textures, thoughts and the Knowing of all of these. Where are you in all of them? I mean :

Are you a sight ? Are you a sound ? Are you a smell ? Are you a taste ? Are you a texture ? Are you a sensation? Are you a feeling ? Are you a thought ? Look and tell me what are you ? Look at you ?
I am the receiver and interpreter of all these sensory experiences. I am not a sound, smell, sight, taste, or texture, or feeling. Am I a thought? That comes closest to what I feel. The 'I' is not like anything else. It does not fit into any category.

NB : it is easy to give answers from the mind but you won’t go nowhere. The answer to what you are is not in the mind. It is in the Seeing. You have to Look at you 24/7 and write down what you see. I gave a lot of pointers to look. Instead, you go to thoughts and write back what comes up. Don’t give a reply to say garbage, give a reply after looking and I need to know what is seen. It can last a day, two days or a week. You go alone to a park, or in the forest and look plain view what is going on. Ask : is all that is going on needs a me to happen?

I have never in any way tried to give answers from the mind. With you and everyone else I have ever spoken to about this, I always go to Direct Looking. This has been true for more than 20 years, ever since I began this search. When I re-read my answers, I say "that is my direct experience of looking, it is not thought."
So if you still insist that my answers are from thought and not from looking, there must be another possibility. The answer is not found in 'trying harder'; it's not possible to try harder than I have. So what MAY be true is that I just DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO SEE THIS. I know a guy who cannot see the color Blue. No matter how much you tell him to try, he won't see it. He doesn't have the visual equipment in his eyes. I might be like that. Maybe I just cannot see that there is no self. Is that possible?

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warissem
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Re: Seeking no self

Postby warissem » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:31 am

Hi Bobs
I said that the 'I' cannot be PERCEIVED through the five senses. I did not say that it does not EXIST through the 5 senses.
OK I understand what you mean.
Once again, it's a center in the head. All my experience flows out of that. You can say that it is just a thought. To me it is not a thought. Maybe we define thought differently.

Your answer is a train of thoughts. It is not a result of looking. Do you understand that what is going here in the forum is LOOKING AT DIRECT EXPERIENCE (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching). It is of no help for you to give answers from the mind and a waste of time for me. From now, your answers must come from direct experience. It means : read your answer before submitting it here. Example :
“once again, it’s a center in the head” : is it a sight, does it have color, shape, size, … ? No. Is it a smell or a taste ? Hmmm, no. Is it a touching ? does it have a texture? Is it warm or cold? No. is it a sound? No. Conclusion : it is a thought then I don’t give this answer to warissem. OK? You do the same thing to each sentence you write. GIVE THE ANSWERS AFTER HAVING LOOKED. I gave to you all the tools to look.

I'm very familiar with this exercise, and have done it many times. To me, there is no comparison between the fruit example and the "you". The fruit obviously does not exist when I open my eyes, but the "I" is there before, during, and after the exercise. I would agree that I don't "See" the 'I', but I feel it.
Once again, do you feel the “I” or is there a feeling of beingness, aliveness ?

I am the receiver and interpreter of all these sensory experiences. I am not a sound, smell, sight, taste, or texture, or feeling. Am I a thought? That comes closest to what I feel. The 'I' is not like anything else. It does not fit into any category.
Yes the “I” is not like anything else then what is it ? When someone says to you : there is a tiger under your bed, you go to look and say there is nothing there or you say I don’t feel it or I think there is not tiger there.

I have never in any way tried to give answers from the mind. With you and everyone else I have ever spoken to about this, I always go to Direct Looking. This has been true for more than 20 years, ever since I began this search. When I re-read my answers, I say "that is my direct experience of looking, it is not thought."
So if you still insist that my answers are from thought and not from looking, there must be another possibility. The answer is not found in 'trying harder'; it's not possible to try harder than I have. So what MAY be true is that I just DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO SEE THIS. I know a guy who cannot see the color Blue. No matter how much you tell him to try, he won't see it. He doesn't have the visual equipment in his eyes. I might be like that. Maybe I just cannot see that there is no self. Is that possible?

You can not see something which does not exist. Right now, there is a knowing principle, awareness, consciousness, whatever you call it, there are appearances (known through the five senses). There is no you, no me, no him, no separate self. As I said above, go to looking in direct experience and read your answers before sending them.

Warissem

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BobS
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Re: Seeking no self

Postby BobS » Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:17 pm

I'm very familiar with this exercise, and have done it many times. To me, there is no comparison between the fruit example and the "you". The fruit obviously does not exist when I open my eyes, but the "I" is there before, during, and after the exercise. I would agree that I don't "See" the 'I', but I feel it.
Once again, do you feel the “I” or is there a feeling of beingness, aliveness ?
It is the 'I'.


I am the receiver and interpreter of all these sensory experiences. I am not a sound, smell, sight, taste, or texture, or feeling. Am I a thought? That comes closest to what I feel. The 'I' is not like anything else. It does not fit into any category.
Yes the “I” is not like anything else then what is it ? When someone says to you : there is a tiger under your bed, you go to look and say there is nothing there or you say I don’t feel it or I think there is not tiger there.
I look as well as I can. Apparently people who are better 'lookers' than me see that there is no self. I don't see that at all.
It's not even remotely close to my experience. What you call a feeling of beingness or aliveness is what I call "me".

You can not see something which does not exist. Right now, there is a knowing principle, awareness, consciousness, whatever you call it, there are appearances (known through the five senses). There is no you, no me, no him, no separate self. As I said above, go to looking in direct experience and read your answers before sending them.
I don't see this. I don't know what else to say. I just don't see it.

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warissem
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Re: Seeking no self

Postby warissem » Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:38 pm

Hi Bobs

I asked in the first instance :"Once again, do you feel the “I” or is there a feeling of beingness, aliveness ?"
You answer is : "It is the "I".

A few lines later, in the same post, you said :"What you call a feeling of beingness or aliveness is what I call "me"."

You are free to call it "me", "I" or whatever. In the introduction post you said that you understand that there is no separate self but you have not seen that. I have given to you all the keys to do the Looking, you are still turning around your beliefs. When I read again my questions and your answers, I conclude that :

1) You are swallowing in a big confusion about what is going on. Remember what you said about a thought seeing other thoughts.
OR
2)you are here to waste your time and my time.

Anyway, I cannot see it for you. Right now eyes are open, seeing is happening without you. Hearing is happening without you. All is happening without you. You like it or you don't like it, it is here now. You see it or you don't see it, there is no you, no separate self right now, it has never been, it will never be. Yes there is awareness, yes there is beingness, it is not you. Is Bob seeing the thoughts? ALL WHAT YOU WRITE IS RESISTANCE. Are you afraid to disappear with the disappearing of a you which is never here in the first place? Look at what the resistance.

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BobS
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Re: Seeking no self

Postby BobS » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:57 pm

I asked in the first instance :"Once again, do you feel the “I” or is there a feeling of beingness, aliveness ?"
You answer is : "It is the "I".

A few lines later, in the same post, you said :"What you call a feeling of beingness or aliveness is what I call "me"."

You are free to call it "me", "I" or whatever. In the introduction post you said that you understand that there is no separate self but you have not seen that. I have given to you all the keys to do the Looking, you are still turning around your beliefs.
It's possible I'm just too stupid to see this. I always do what to me is Direct Looking. Maybe I will never know how to look. I tried as hard as I could. I can't try any harder. The feeling of aliveness is what I call me. That's how it is.
2)you are here to waste your time and my time.
Are there really people who would do that? I can't imagine that. What purpose would be served by that?

ALL WHAT YOU WRITE IS RESISTANCE. Are you afraid to disappear with the disappearing of a you which is never here in the first place? Look at what the resistance
This kind of statement once again makes me think maybe I'm just too stupid to see this. Why would I or anyone else have
resistance to the disappearing of a you? The you does nothing but create pain. It has no value. I can't find any resistance. It's not my choice that the self is there, but it's just there.
As I said before, I appreciate so much your patience in putting up with me. I wouldn't blame you if you gave up on me.
Am I the only one who doesn't see this?

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warissem
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Re: Seeking no self

Postby warissem » Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:27 pm

Hi Bob

It is not a question of intelligence or stupidity.

Right now, look at the thought "chair". This word "chair" points to the object called "chair". We can see it, we can touch it even smell it. Now look at the thought "I". Just tell me, to WHAT this word "I" is pointing ? in other words WHAT is behind
the word "I" ?
To describe a chair you need to LOOK at it. Now do the same thing for the "I". Look at this "I", look at the place where
it is supposed to be. Find its location. It is so simple. It does not need to think about it.

When you say : I am seeing, what is this I? I want to know, describe it for me. DOn't tell me what you think about "I", instead give me what you see, hear, smell, taste, touch.

Warissem

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BobS
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Re: Seeking no self

Postby BobS » Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:09 pm

When you say : I am seeing, what is this I? I want to know, describe it for me. DOn't tell me what you think about "I", instead give me what you see, hear, smell, taste, touch.
It is in the center of the head. I don't see, hear, smell, taste, or touch it. I feel it. I could call it a bundle of energy. But those words don't really describe it. Language is so inadequate to describe this. I can't find words that fit. But I definitely sense its presence.

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warissem
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Re: Seeking no self

Postby warissem » Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:29 pm

Hi Bobs
It is in the center of the head. I don't see, hear, smell, taste, or touch it. I feel it. I could call it a bundle of energy. But those words don't really describe it. Language is so inadequate to describe this. I can't find words that fit. But I definitely sense its presence.
You recognize that “I” is not known through the five senses but you insist in saying that it has a location (center of the head).

First, who or what is knowing that “I” is located in the center of the head?

Two, who or what is sensing its presence?

Sink in these questions before giving answers. Don’t answer from your imagination, have a direct looking at those questions.

Best wishes

Warissem

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BobS
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Re: Seeking no self

Postby BobS » Tue Sep 29, 2020 5:50 pm

First, who or what is knowing that “I” is located in the center of the head?

Two, who or what is sensing its presence?
These are difficult questions. I sit and ask for a long time. I sink into them. I try to dismiss all thoughts.

And what comes up for both questions is 'I'. I think to myself "Warissem is going to say 'I' is a thought or a concept.
Go deeper."

So I try to see deeper than this. But what comes up is 'I'. I'm not getting beyond that. But I will keep trying.

Thank you,

Bob

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warissem
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Re: Seeking no self

Postby warissem » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:42 pm

Hi Bobs
So I try to see deeper than this. But what comes up is 'I'. I'm not getting beyond that. But I will keep trying

Yes, when someone asks : what is seeing thoughts? Your answer will be : me or I. You recognize that "I" is a concept, that's good. What I expect from you is an answer on what is this "I".
You know about the hand pointing to the moon. Giving "I" as the answer is like looking at the hand, at the pointer. I want you to look at the moon, at WHat the "I" is pointing to. Behind "chair" is an object we call chair. What is behind "I". LOOK.

It is so simple to look. Even you find something, you describe it or you find nothing. There are no other ways.

Warissem

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BobS
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Re: Seeking no self

Postby BobS » Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:27 pm

You recognize that "I" is a concept, that's good.
No, I don't think I recognize that "I" is a concept. I wrote that YOU would say that. I WISH I knew that.

I read over and over what you say about the finger pointing to the moon, and the word "chair" describing a chair.
But for me the "I" is not like that. The moon and the chair are clearly APART from me. They are OUTSIDE me. The I is what is looking. It's like you're asking me to 'look' at my own eyes WITH my eyes.

The best I can do to accurately describe "I" is to say "it is the thing at my center out of which my experiences come". I can feel experiences coming out of something in the center of my head. I can't describe more than that.

I am very frustrated. But I will keep trying.

Thank you for your patience.

Bob

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warissem
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Re: Seeking no self

Postby warissem » Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:03 am

Hi Bob
The best I can do to accurately describe "I" is to say "it is the thing at my center out of which my experiences come". I can feel experiences coming out of something in the center of my head. I can't describe more than that.

You are not describing "I". You are speaking about what you feel not about what you see in direct experience. You can be sure that you won’t make any improvement if you don’t engage into LOOKING, observation of what is here now.

Are you seeing the word "I" on the screen?
The word "screen" represents this screen in front of you.
The word "I" is written on this screen
What is seeing the screen and the word "I"? LOOK. Don't go to thoughts. Look at direct experience.

Warissem

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BobS
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Re: Seeking no self

Postby BobS » Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:50 pm

Are you seeing the word "I" on the screen?
Yes.
What is seeing the screen and the word "I"? LOOK. Don't go to thoughts. Look at direct experience.
What is seeing the word I is ...... I. I can't see other than that. If I remove the word 'I', or pretend that I don't have language, then it is still that bundle of energy I call 'I'.

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warissem
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Re: Seeking no self

Postby warissem » Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:05 pm

Hi Bob

Would you speak about yourself, what are you ? Feel free to elaborate.

Warissem


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