Goodbye me!

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:36 am

Hi Manolo,

Is there a desire to avoid ‘difficult questions’ and stay in your comfort zone (meaning what is familiar, what you already know)?
Or my questions are in clash with your beliefs / assumptions?

The same thing (either a body, mind, entity, "I", "me") that has a preference for chocolate instead of tomato, is having a preference over simple, probably single questions or exercises than talking too much, because it feels confusing.
Yes, confusion can happen. That’s normal. It happens to everybody. And actually it’s a good thing. Since it shows that there is a clash with your beliefs/assumptions which is a sign that something is happening. And that’s good, and is part of the process.
The same thing (either a body, mind, entity, "I", "me") that has a preference for chocolate instead of tomato, is having a preference over simple,
The thing is that this is an intellectual answer. It’s coming from thinking. But there is experience underneath all thinking, and that is what we are investigating. But it seems that currently you have difficulty of letting go of the safety of the realm of thoughts.

Actually, this is very simple.
When it seems to be complicated then it’s because the focus is on thoughts and not on the immediacy of experience.
Reality is very simply.
It’s always here, waiting for you to notice it.

because it feels confusing.
You can look into this.

What is it that feels to be confused? What is confused? Where is the confused one?

I'm here to help you to walk through this. Trust the process. Once you discover it, you will wonder how you could ever miss it.

I'm here to help you as long as it takes. And it doesn't matter how long it takes. It's different for everybody. I won't leave you :)

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:35 am

Hi Manolo,

How is investigation going? Are you still with me?

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:30 am

Hello, Vivien! Nice to hear from you =)

I've been doing 30 minutes of meditation every morning until I arrived here, when I stopped and used that time to do these exercises. The first two weeks I felt something was going on, but last week the feeling was as if nothing was happening and I was sitting there, for nothing. I know that nothing special should happen, but I was sitting there confused about what to do, what exercise, question, inquiry or even "just be there". In other words, I was sitting confused.

Of course I'm with you, Vivien if you are here, Vivien! My response was because I did not want to make YOU lose your time.

Today I sitted without a clear exercise and thoughts just moved around.

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:14 am

Hi Manolo,
I know that nothing special should happen, but I was sitting there confused about what to do, what exercise, question, inquiry or even "just be there".
Please use the inquiry questions I give you with each post.
Those are pointers for you where to look and what to investigate.
So while you meditate, you can ask those questions (write them down if that helps) and then look to the direction they are pointing to.

I hope this explanation helps.

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:11 pm

Thanks Vivien!

I will do that then. I am not meditating anymore in the sense that I am trying to focus on the breath. I've been asking myself these questions during the time of meditation. In other words, I replaced "focusing on the breath" by "asking these questions to myself".

I will copy your (blue) questions and go fully over each of them during my mornings, and then, during shorter periods of time during the day.

So, let me go over the latest ones tomorrow morning and I'll get back here!

Thanks!

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:35 am

All right :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:20 am

Which sounds truer:
I don’t exist
or
the I as the separate self doesn’t exist in a way it was thought to exist. It exists only as an idea, but not as an actual agency with control and volition?
The second, of course. I do exist. I was referring to the idea of a "me", a manager. When I think about this it is clear that there's none.


But you exist, don’t you? Just not as a separate self as being a small segment of life?
Yes, and that's the problem. I understand that intellectualy and if I go checking over every sense, it's clear that there's no specific part managing all, and that things are simply happening. The problem happens when I continue with moving around, walking, talking to people, working, etc, that it feels as if I'm a separate self. If this is an illusion, it's pefect! It's working magic on this body because as soon as I stop focusing on this, it becomes clear again that this body is separate and that there's a manager here in this skull.

What is it that feels to be confused? What is confused? Where is the confused one?
Exactly what I said above. When I close my eyes in the morning to do this exercises, this investigation, it is seen as true that things are happening. Then when I stand up and go on with daily tasks, that apparent clarity is completely lost, and the manager is there, the separate self is there, the thoughts that rehearse conversations are just there. Yes, this is happening as well, so what? =) The feeling of a separate self persists all the time.

Thanks Vivien!

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:54 am

Hi Manolo,

Thanks for sharing.
The feeling of a separate self persists all the time.
If the feeling of a separate self is persistent all the time, then you should have no problem with describing to me this feeling. This should be super easy :)

So, please describe me the FEELING of a separate self a precisely as you can.
But make sure that you don’t go to theories, rather the write about the raw feeling itself.

The problem happens when I continue with moving around, walking, talking to people, working, etc, that it feels as if I'm a separate self.
But HOW do you FEEL that you are a separate self?

Which FEELING exactly is the feeling of being a separate self?
And how do you know that feeling is a feeling of separation and not something else, like a muscle contraction?

What are you separate from?
What is the border between me and not-me?

It's working magic on this body because as soon as I stop focusing on this, it becomes clear again that this body is separate and that there's a manager here in this skull.
Oh, so you believe that you are the body? I = body?
What makes the body into an I?

Isn’t the body just a body?

And what is the EXPERIENCE of a manager being inside the scull?

HOW do you know that the manager is inside the scull? Why not in your little finger on your left foot? Or why not at the back of your right knee?

And HOW do you know that there is a manager at all?
Where is the proof for a manager in this very moment? – not theoretically, but right here, right now?


Please investigate these. Let me know what you find.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:38 pm

The feeling of a separate self persists all the time.
If the feeling of a separate self is persistent all the time, then you should have no problem with describing to me this feeling. This should be super easy :)
So, please describe me the FEELING of a separate self a precisely as you can.
But make sure that you don’t go to theories, rather the write about the raw feeling itself.
Hehe =) Yes, the feeling is that I am creating the thoughts even if I know I am not, and moving around as an independent person. It's quite simple really: when I do the investigation, I can see that everything happens, including my thoughts. When I stop investigating, I stop seeing that.
I read un unrelated example somewhere that comes handy: we know the sunset is not really a sunset, it is just the earth rotating. However, the experience is as if the sun moves down. This is what happens here: when I examine I clearly feel that nobody's here and everything happens. Then the body moves to the next task and stops investigating, which makes me forget how things "really" are.


But HOW do you FEEL that you are a separate self? Which FEELING exactly is the feeling of being a separate self?
And how do you know that feeling is a feeling of separation and not something else, like a muscle contraction?
It feels clearly on the body, of course. Yes, muscular contraction. This body feels this muscles and not other muscles. There's a separation from this body and other bodies. Also, this body receives input which is apparently private, like the thoughts. For example, the senses are mosly shared (sight, sounds) but these thoughts makes this body believe it is separate, yes. Well, I can say that there's a thought claiming the privacy of every thought.


What are you separate from? What is the border between me and not-me?
I'm separate from everything that's outside of this skin.


What makes the body into an I? Isn’t the body just a body?
A thought. "I want to drink water" for example. "I" points to this body. Why not using the "I" by the way? Hahah =)
The body is just a body, yes, but when it has a need, like water, it moves to the refrig while generally a thought of "I want water" appears. So the thought is no more than a thought at that point, but that does not change anything. The thought happens exclusively to this body, otherwise we will be all together making a line to open the refrig, and that is not happening =)


And what is the EXPERIENCE of a manager being inside the scull?
It's quite simple really. For example, right now I decide the rebel against your question so I TYPE WITH CAPS LOCKS, but now I prefer to simply go back to normal fonts. NoW I wIlL aLtErNaTe EaCh ChArAcTeR. See? This is how it feels haha =) It feels the power to choose and act depending on what happens in the environment including this body.


HOW do you know that the manager is inside the scull? Why not in your little finger on your left foot? Or why not at the back of your right knee?
I've seen other bodies without legs and arms functioning perfectly well. And I've seen bodies that had impact in their skulls with tremendous consequences. That's how I know.


And HOW do you know that there is a manager at all? Where is the proof for a manager in this very moment? – not theoretically, but right here, right now?
Here I completely agree with you: I can't know that. I said it FEELS that way even knowing (while doing the exercises) there's none. The problem in the mind arises when it remembers that it forgotten there was no manager. The feeling while not doing the exercises is as if there's somebody doing the stuff. When doing the exercises, at that precise moment the feeling is different and it seems clear FOR MOMENTS that no manager exists.

Thanks a lot, Vivien! It feels as if I'm going back a few squares. Of course, assuming that that is possible.

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:54 am

Hi Manolo,
A thought. "I want to drink water" for example. "I" points to this body. Why not using the "I" by the way? Hahah =)
The body is just a body, yes, but when it has a need, like water, it moves to the refrig while generally a thought of "I want water" appears. So the thought is no more than a thought at that point, but that does not change anything. The thought happens exclusively to this body, otherwise we will be all together making a line to open the refrig, and that is not happening =)
This is totally intellectual, it’s just logical thinking.

But thinking is a total dead-end. You cannot think yourself into seeing through the illusion.

Since seeing how things actually are, happens UNDERNEATH all thoughts and concepts, in the here and now experience.
There is nowhere else to go, nowhere else to look, but here now.
V: And what is the EXPERIENCE of a manager being inside the scull?
M: It's quite simple really. For example, right now I decide the rebel against your question so I TYPE WITH CAPS LOCKS, but now I prefer to simply go back to normal fonts. NoW I wIlL aLtErNaTe EaCh ChArAcTeR. See? This is how it feels haha =) It feels the power to choose and act depending on what happens in the environment including this body.
Please read my above question and you reply to it.

Can you see that your reply is totally unrelated to my question?
Do you see that I asked about your experience (I even used caps to emphasis of its importance), yet you wrote down your thoughts and not your experience?


It’s very important that you read my questions carefully. Since every single question I give you is a pointer for you where to look. These are not questions to ponder on intellectual or just write down your thoughts or opinion about them. These are all pointers, and you literally have to look into the direction that they are pointing to.
I've seen other bodies without legs and arms functioning perfectly well. And I've seen bodies that had impact in their skulls with tremendous consequences. That's how I know.
Manolo, you are not looking. You are just thinking. This is a dead-end. Thinking has no value in this investigation.
Here I completely agree with you: I can't know that. I said it FEELS that way even knowing (while doing the exercises) there's none. The problem in the mind arises when it remembers that it forgotten there was no manager. The feeling while not doing the exercises is as if there's somebody doing the stuff. When doing the exercises, at that precise moment the feeling is different and it seems clear FOR MOMENTS that no manager exists.
The thing is that you rely much more on thoughts, than on experience.
All confusion come from thinking.
Reality is very simple.
Very simple.

Can you let go off your thoughts?
Can you let go off your intellect?
Can you allow yourself to NOT know anything for a while?
Can you allow yourself to discover something new, instead of thinking the same loops?

This body feels this muscles and not other muscles.
This is coming from thinking.

How do you know that the body feels ‘muscles’?
Which part of the body is the feeler?


Don’t go to thinking, but rather search for the feeler of muscles in this very moment.

And how do muscles experienced?
What is the experience if you don’t label it as ‘muscles’? What is actually there?

but these thoughts makes this body believe it is separate, yes.
So the body believes? The body has an ability to believe? Or is this just another unexamined assumption?
Which part of the body is the believer? Your hands? Or the back of the knees? Or the cheeks? Or the forehead? Or the tongue?


Don’t think – let it go… just NOTICE what is here when you don’t rely on thoughts.
I'm separate from everything that's outside of this skin.
OK. So you are inside the body?
How do you know that? – I’m not asking about theories and assumptions, but I’m asking how do you know this if you ignore ALL thoughts and you stay with the immediate experience?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:09 am

You are right about my previous responses being pure thought and not full experience. Let me retry.
And what is the EXPERIENCE of a manager being inside the scull?
There's no experience like that, really. What happens is simply nothing, events everywhere. Then a thought (or several ones) arise claiming to be the manager in the past and for sure in the future. But to be concrete, there's no such EXPERIENCE as a manager inside this head.


Manolo, you are not looking. You are just thinking. This is a dead-end. Thinking has no value in this investigation.
And again, you are completely right Viv. Yes, while I was doing the exercises this week and partly the previous one, it was way more oriented to thinking than the full experience. I refocused this morning. Let's see if I can stay on the experience.

Can you let go off your thoughts? Can you let go off your intellect?
Of course I WANT, I do not know if I can. It's super-tricky for me, Vivien. Like, 8 days ago I saw there was no manager and things were happening. I don't know if I "saw", but it was clear for me. Then another something happened which made thoughts come stronger or at least, the focus, the attention started being more on them instead of the full experience.


Can you allow yourself to NOT know anything for a while?
I am MORE than willing, Viv. Let's really retry.


Can you allow yourself to discover something new, instead of thinking the same loops?
Yes! It's incredible but intellectualy I understand that thinking will take me nowhere. And I am open to let that go. What happened at the end of last week and the beginning of this one was really... I do not know what to say, I do not have an explanation: thoughts took over.


How do you know that the body feels ‘muscles’? Which part of the body is the feeler? Don’t go to thinking, but rather search for the feeler of muscles in this very moment.
There's no feeler. Feeling happens at different locations in the body. Cold, hot, pain. It is clear there's no feeler here. Feeling only.


And how do muscles experienced? What is the experience if you don’t label it as ‘muscles’? What is actually there?
No muscle is experienced, that seem to be complexity here. It just feels touch at different locations, again, and again, and again.


So the body believes? The body has an ability to believe? Or is this just another unexamined assumption?
Which part of the body is the believer? Your hands? Or the back of the knees? Or the cheeks? Or the forehead? Or the tongue?
Well, the experience today makes it obvious that the body can't believe. It's the thought that arises AFTER FEELING that says "my body this, or my body that", but nobody or nothing believes in reality.


OK. So you are inside the body? How do you know that? – I’m not asking about theories and assumptions, but I’m asking how do you know this if you ignore ALL thoughts and you stay with the immediate experience?
All I can say is that experience happens through this body. Experience is happening.


Thanks for your patience, Vivien! =)

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:38 am

Hi Manolo,
Well, the experience today makes it obvious that the body can't believe. It's the thought that arises AFTER FEELING that says "my body this, or my body that", but nobody or nothing believes in reality.
Exactly. All doership is just a thought AFTER the fact.

Something happens, and thought labels that happening as ‘I did that’.
Just notice that thoughts are almost constantly judging, interpreting and labelling what is going on.
Notice, how much storytelling is going in a day.
Most of time, if you really look.

Let me know what you find.
All I can say is that experience happens through this body. Experience is happening.
Experience is happening, yes.

But HOW do you know that experience happens THROUGH the body?
Isn’t the body itself just another experience?

Look, can you find anything of the body that is not the experience of sensations and colors?


Please look at this very closely many-many times before replying.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:12 am

Hey Vivien! No big news here but I wanted you to know that "I am here" =)

Just notice that thoughts are almost constantly judging, interpreting and labelling what is going on.
Notice, how much storytelling is going in a day.
Most of time, if you really look.
Yes, to the point that there's zero control over them. Even if unpleasant feelings arise after thoughts, I found no way to change that, except when another things happen. And just as a FYI, these are not "terrible thoughts" but just -apparently normal- thoughts reacting a scene with family, or saying something to somebody, etc. There's no manager here.

I can't reply yet to the other questions. I am doing the exercise/investigation every day in the mornings but just a bit during the day, when I remember. If I can't check my experience during the day at least for 1 minute several times, I'll use an alarm or something like that!

Viv, these thoughts (pleasant and not) grab the attention most of the time. I am clearly not intelligent but at the same time, excesively focused on thoughts!

Not expecting a response for you so no worries. Just wanted to make sure that you know I am still here.

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Vivien
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Vivien » Tue Oct 06, 2020 10:46 am

All right Manolo, just keep me updated :)
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Manolo2020
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Re: Goodbye me!

Postby Manolo2020 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:09 am

Stuck but stil on it.

The exercises are "easy'' every morning but I completely forget to check my experience during the day.

Morning: I do the exercises but I have to admit that thoughts are every-freaking-where instead of in the exercises. There's an intention to do them, but not really executing.

Day: sometimes I question myself but I do not remember to do it frequently. I'm hooked at what I'm doing on the moment (mostly working with joy) and once the day is over, I go to bed without the feeling of having doing anything about it.

Either way Viv, I am writing this more to say "Hi, I am still here and thanks for all that you are doing", but this time there are no questions =)

Have a great weekend!


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