Looking for the Guide Taran

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:54 pm

Hi Taran

I am having a second go at this as the previous attempt didn't seem to be quite correct.

Typing on computer
Direct experience: sound and thought - (thought content: typing, keys make clicking sound)

Typing on computer
Direct experience: touch and thought - (thought content: typing, wrist pressing down, hands are on computer)

Drinking fizzy water
Direct experience: sense - thought - (thought connect: awareness of a lump in throat )

Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:00 am

Hi V
Great well done!
am having a second go at this as the previous attempt didn't seem to be quite correct.

Typing on computer
Direct experience: sound and thought - (thought content: typing, keys make clicking sound)

Typing on computer
Direct experience: touch and thought - (thought content: typing, wrist pressing down, hands are on computer)

Drinking fizzy water
Direct experience: sense - thought - (thought connect: awareness of a lump in throat )
Very good observations.
What is the direct experience of "awareness of a lump in throat"?

Also let's try the sound exercise again, I suggest you pick a different sound to last time.

So I would like you to sit somewhere quiet and become aware of sounds. Close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.

I look forward to hearing what you find.
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:03 pm

Hi Taran (and thank you)
What is the direct experience of "awareness of a lump in throat"?
Awareness of a lump in throat
Direct experience: Sensations - Thought (thought content: there is tightNess dryNess and Pressure In the throat)


Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.
The sound from my throat when swallowIng

V X

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:03 am

Hi V
What is the direct experience of "awareness of a lump in throat"?
Awareness of a lump in throat
Direct experience: Sensations - Thought (thought content: there is tightNess dryNess and Pressure In the throat)
Great ...well seen, and written out.
The direct experience is sensations & thought. (And thought content noted, and handy to share for explanation.)
Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? And make sure that the sound is something you will hear again, for the next phase of this exercise.
The sound from my throat when swallowIng
So please tell me the direct experience of "the sound of my throat when swallowing"?

And then try to listen to something simple that appears to come from something external to you, such as a ticking clock or bird song, and tell me the direct experience of that.

Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:23 am

Hi Taran

I am pleased you gave me a weekend to practise this before going to another task. I tend to like to take a little time to get things.
So please tell me the direct experience of "the sound of my throat when swallowing"?
Awareness of sounds and sensations when throat is swallowing
Direct experience: Sounds - Thought (thought content: there there are noises going on bellow head and ears)

And then try to listen to something simple that appears to come from something external to you, such as a ticking clock or bird song, and tell me the direct experience of that.
Cars passing by
Direct experience: Sounds - Thought (thought content: cars are passing by)

Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:29 pm

hi Vi

Thank you for your very clear looking :-)

The interpretation of direct experience happens quickly. Though while inquiring, labelling and interpretation will always appear, it IS possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with, and overlay direct experience.

Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between direct experience and the interpretation by thought of the direct experience. The following exercise will make this clear.

For this exercise you will need an apple (or any other piece of fruit will do).

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure is the direct experience of colour and the direct experience of thought. What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Direct experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Direct experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation. While thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in direct experience.
With your apple in your hand.... is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in direct experience?

This is what is meant by ‘looking in direct experience - what you know for sure and is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known, Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known. Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known. Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched). Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known. Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known.

However, is an "apple" actually known?

This will need you to spend sometime on and off with it. Moving forwards, it is really getting to grips with this in a fruitful way (please excuse the pun), rather than just conceptually working through the exercise - which will help you in this process.

I look forward to hearing how you get on
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:55 am

Hi Taran

[
quote]With your apple in your hand.... is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
There’s only Sensations (colour Smell touch) and thought (The thought content being : thoughts about ‘Apple’.)
Can ‘apple’ be found in direct experience?
[/quote]

No
However, is an "apple" actually known?
No that’s a tricky question really! Thought content includes thoughts about apple but direct experience is sensations (smell and sight and touch) and doesn’t include ‘apple’.

So my question is - ‘what is ‘known‘? Or more specifically what do you mean by the term ‘known’ in this context?

If things are ‘known’ by ‘direct experience‘ alone, then ‘Apple is not ‘known’.

If ‘known’ is ‘thought content’ then ‘apple’ is ‘known’.

I guess is that by your definition of ‘known’ the answer is ‘no’ (but it will depend on what you mean by ‘known’. Are things ‘known’ by direct experience? Or by the labels we put on them with our thoughts? I think it could be said that there is a different type of known in each way (both in direct experience and in thought content/labelling), but the truest deepest knowing is In my experience, in direct experience.

V x

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:57 am

Hi V

Great answers.
I'm pleased to read you are very clear that an "apple" can't be found in direct experience.

Apple can only be known in thought content, which has it's uses of course. We label the direct experience 'apple' as a conceptual memory, no doubt including ideas of taste and smell, and this is useful so that we know apples are safe to eat when we next see one. However the idea of this apple is a fantasy....

will the idea of apple ever sustain you?


So we continue to work in direct experience(DE) here, from looking in the moment, rather than intellectual knowing.
the truest deepest knowing is in my experience, in direct experience.
Wonderful. Never a truer word said.

For this next exercise we are only looking at touch sensations.
Place your hand on a table and close your eyes.....
First notice and put aside any 'mental' images or thoughts which appear about the table or hand.
Now "go to" the sensation where the hand meets the table and answer from what you find in DE.
1) how many 'things' do you find?
Are there two things 'hand' & table or simply DE of sensation?
2)Do you notice one thing feeling another thing? Or is there just sensation?
3) do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling'.....or is there only sensation?
What do you find?


Happy looking, I look forward to hearing.
Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:10 am

Hi Taran
will the idea of apple ever sustain you?
Temporarily as an illusion possibly but ultimately no.

For this next exercise we are only looking at touch sensations.
Place your hand on a table and close your eyes.....
First notice and put aside any 'mental' images or thoughts which appear about the table or hand.
Now "go to" the sensation where the hand meets the table and answer from what you find in DE.
1) how many 'things' do you find?
Are there two things 'hand' & table or simply DE of sensation?
Simply direct experience
2)Do you notice one thing feeling another thing? Or is there just sensation?
just sensation
3) do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling'.....or is there only sensation?
What do you find?
only sensation

Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:00 pm

Hi V

Well done.
Good ‘looking’.

On reflection and in discussion with my mentor, we decided to just go back to the apple exercise, I’m not sure I was clear enough.... staying with direct experience..

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:29 pm

Hi Taran
The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?
No :-)

Vx

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:59 pm

Hi V
Great. Well done.

So this exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present. Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts:- Looking how they come and go, and Observing the short gap between them. Noticing how the current thought is passing. And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise: Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how you get on.

Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:48 am

Hi Taran,
1. Notice the current thought that is present. Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts:- Looking how they come and go, and Observing the short gap between them. Noticing how the current thought is passing. And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise: Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how you get on.
Thank you for explaining this exercise. I’m very familiar with this process of observing thoughts and the gap between them as I’ve been doing this exercise since 1990s when I was first taught it. I’ve also done ‘observing thoughts and the gap between them’ in a slightly different form as well which has been a pretty regular practice of mine for thirty years.

I’ll do as you’ve asked Me to
throughout the waking day
and
as often as possible
which is actually what I do anyways. But I’ll do it now in the context of the LU work too.

What I can report To you about doing this is ‘Exercise’ is that over the years of doing this I’ve noticed that a gap appears and becomes bigger and bigger and stronger and stronger not only in this exercise process but also in life generally. It’s like a blank or spacious gap that gives distance between things expands.

Experiencing the gap gets me in touch with, or I could say ‘reminds me of’ or ‘shows me’, the place where I’m not me. It separates me Out from Me and gives me an experience of ‘not me’ or ‘more than me’ or ‘beyond me’ or ‘me as everything’ so that I know myself as ‘breath’ ‘ether’ ‘light’ ‘everything’ and/or ‘space’ - expanded and expanding space.

It’s difficult to put these kinds of things into words but the result is that I’m calm because I re-member myself as a sort of expanded out into the universe ‘self’ Not a person self, so that there’s no Separate self. I experience the spaciousness of no thing.

I realise my language might not be the same as yours in describing all of this and my use of words might not be your language Or use of these words but hopefully you’ll ‘get‘ what I’m saying. 🙏🏼

V x

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Taran
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Taran » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:29 pm

Hi V

Great, thank you for your response, yes I “get” it.

I pretty much figured I’d get this kind of response from you, but it was good to check.

What we are aiming for is the ‘no separate self’ to be your full time experience, rather than something you find when you take time to look...: So here is a thought exercise. Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary.

Please answer each question individually and not from past experience/memories but from direct experience now.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence.

Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?


I look forward to your answers.

Taran x
Love says "I am everything." Wisdom says "I am nothing." Between the two, my life flows. (Nisargadatta)

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Viquillusion
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Re: Looking for the Guide Taran

Postby Viquillusion » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:48 am

Hi Taran

I’m glad you got what I was trying to say.

I’ve done your exercise just now :
Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.
and these are my results or answers:
Where are they coming from and going to?
I don’t know.
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
No
Can you predict your next thought?
No
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
No
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
No
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
No
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence.
they seem completely random to me
Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
That’s just another thought

V x


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