Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

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Bananafish
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Bananafish » Wed Sep 30, 2020 5:54 am

Once a person is conscious, he knows about consciousness though.


Does this mean he's thinking about consciousness?
What's consciousness when you don't think about consciousness at all?
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Albyn
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Albyn » Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:18 am

It's not about thinking. You just know. Or rather, I just know. Either I am conscious or I am not. And therefore either I know about consciousness or I don't. Person who's never experienced it will not understand what it is. Computers (these days) would not understand what it is. In the future, they might.
I don't know what to answer to that really. I don't understand. You want me to describe consciousness? Or imagine a state where the consciousness is but I'm not aware of it? Not sure how to do that.

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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Bananafish » Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:55 am

During all the waking hours, 24/7, are you conscious about being conscious? Or,
are you thinking about consciousness 24/7? Do you live your daily life while "knowing" it all the time?
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Albyn
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Albyn » Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:48 am

I almost never think about consciousness.
I do live my life knowing it. I use conciousness. I am aware of the body, thoughts, sensations and actions.
Most of the time I act with patterns and habits I've created over my life. They're automatic. So I am sometimes aware, conscious of them but rarely do anything with it.
Sometimes I am not aware of what I'm doing because I get lost in thoughts. I am aware of those thoughts and then I make more mistakes when making a breakfast for example. The process of making breakfast is automatic so I am allowed to not be there fully and get distracted by the brain's thoughts until there's some break, some difference in the usual process and I need to focus to fix it.
Also, it's important to say that consciousness is limited. It has a narrow focus. So while I was thinking about this I started picking my nails, automatically without awareness because it was focused elsewhere. If I focus on seeing a painting at a gallery I don't notice the sounds unless there's some that don't fit (like an alarm or chair falling).
In the same way I can focus on being consious about being conscious. I'd say that's what I do when meditate. Being only the aware, conscious watcher of the brain and/or body. And the brain distracts me with thoughts.

Not sure where you're going with this but I hope it makes sense.

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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Bananafish » Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:56 pm

I almost never think about consciousness.


What's consciousness when you don't think about it, or when you don't give it
the name "consciousness"? Is that a concrete entity?

If you have a closer look at what you call "consciousness", what do you notice?
Are the one that's conscious, being conscious, and consciousness itself three different
matters?
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Albyn
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Albyn » Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:54 pm

What is consciousness? Awareness of the body or the mind. It's not a concrete entity. How could it be? It's a process, capability, program of the brain.
When I don't think about it, it remains the same thing. If I don't give it a name nothing changes. It's still there. For practical reason we call it consciousness or awareness.

Consciousness is a process as I said. Being conscious is the same thing. Both are states of the mind.
The one who's conscious? Not sure. Could be the brain being aware of itself and it's only a feedback program for and from the brain. But I think it's the self that is aware. The self is conscious. It is conscious only of the stuff brain gave us access to. I guess for these things the brain needs the feedback. He needs someone to check on him for him to help navigate the world.

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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Bananafish » Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:20 pm

Ok, Albyn; that has been all theories so far (is that what you want to do here?);
now, pick something you in your sight now, and look at it. When you are looking at it,
is there someone (something) that is conscious of it?


What makes one say that one needs something called "consciousness" for things to be seen;
consider the possibility that it is one of the beliefs you have acquired, which has became a sort of
unquestioned belief that you're conditioned by.
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Albyn
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Albyn » Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:53 pm

Conscious of looking? Yes. There is someone or something aware of the process of looking.
There is no need for consciousness to be there for looking itself but it is there. Same as looking, same as the object.
To me consciousness is a fact. The self could be a belief. Sure.
But not the awareness. Who or what is aware? Can't really say. Feels like there's a self connected to the awareness but they are not the same thing.

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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Bananafish » Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:09 pm

To me consciousness is a fact.
The self could be a belief. Sure.
But not the awareness.


Would there be space for doubting that? This is very important; if you wish to keep
a belief, that belief itself won't let you go of you, which supports the belief that is
"something" that is aware ... which is also a belief.

Would you be able to question it, or would you rather stay safe with what you call
"fact" regarding consciousness?
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Albyn
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Albyn » Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:20 pm

I don't know if we're misunderstanding each other but I thought it's liberation from the self. That's what I've experienced years ago. Even at that time, there was something I would call consciousness. Maybe we have different definitions of those words...
I can try. If it's a belief I don't mind getting rid of the idea of awareness but I really don't know how.
I can accept self as a belief. I have conflicting views on that topic and that's why I'm here. To clear things up.
When it comes to consciousness I haven't had any argument or experiences against it not being there.
I'm not necessarily saying "something" is aware but there is awareness. And now it seems to me that for awareness to exist there has to be objects to be aware of but also someone or something that is aware of those objects. The second part I can't confirm nor deny.

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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Bananafish » Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:34 pm

And now it seems to me that for awareness to exist there has to be objects to be aware of but also someone or something that is aware of those objects.

This is a subtle way to say that there is a subject (self) that is looking at the object; even if you verbally
tell that there is no self, that doesn't mean you've truly realized that there is no subject
whatsoever to be aware of the "object".

When what is called "no-self" (I'm not a fan of this term, though) is realized,
it becomes ridiculously obvious that this form of duality is a thought construct;
so, this IS what directly relatesto our inquiry into what you call "liberation from the self." If you are not
clear about it, there's room for inquiry. And to admit that there is something that is aware means
the opposite of being liberated.


Hope I'm making sense.
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
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Bananafish
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Bananafish » Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:36 pm

I would add that any kind of past experience is not of crucial importance
here; it is something that is gone, that's it.
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Albyn
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Albyn » Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:53 pm

This is a subtle way to say that there is a subject (self) that is looking at the object
Not necessarily. In my view it feels like there's a self but I know there is no need for it to be there. Looking can happen without the self but there has to be something that does the looking. It won't happen on its own because it requires eyes and the brain to process the photons that come to the eyes. So yes, someone/something is looking but it doesn't have to be the self even though it feels like it.
It can also happen without awareness. But that also feels it is there.
even if you verbally
tell that there is no self, that doesn't mean you've truly realized that there is no subject
whatsoever to be aware of the "object".
Agreed. I haven't realized it.
I disagree that there is no subject who is aware as explained above.



So after the realization of the "no-self" the consciousness disappears? Or it was never there?
Why can't the brain be aware of itself and of what it's doing without any involvement of the self? Does brain have awareness? Can it have awareness in your view? This part I honestly don't understand at all.

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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Bananafish » Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:05 pm

Albyn, I could explain all that asked in your post, but I'd like to
stress again that intellectual discussion is not our main purpose here;
if you are more into that, we could have a more casual chat somewhere else, but
I'm afraid that wouldn't suit what people do here in LU. It's more about actually observing
rather than discussing.
I'm available for Skype or Zoom face to face conversation. Drop me a line and we could arrange
the date.
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Albyn
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Re: Went through the gate years ago. Didn't stick. Want to find way again

Postby Albyn » Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:11 pm

Ok. Let's go for observing then.
I honestly think that clearing things up would help but whatever you say.


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