Going backwards?

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Wii
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Going backwards?

Postby Wii » Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:08 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding of there being "no self" is that source (or whatever you like to call it) shapes itself into everything there is in order for it to have experiences it could not have otherwise. Part of this creation is "me" as a character in a story. So, it is not "me" writing but rather reading "my" story.

What are you looking for at LU?
Reading Ilona's book Liberation Unleashed was meant to support what I had learnt from other authors/teachers over the past few months... and it does in so many ways. I do, however, get lost whenever the conversation is pointed towards there not being "anything". So, apparently my mind accepts the concept that I am a character in a story but it won't "let me" go further than that, it seems. E.g. at the beginning of my journey in June of this year, I could see that thoughts just show up, are not created or controlled by me etc. At the moment, it appears that I am having trouble separating not only the labels that come with these thoughts but it actually feels like I am having trouble seeing them as seperate from myself. And this is where I get stuck. I somehow know that I am not in control and, at the same time, am trying to control ... Do you get what I am trying to say?

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

Deep inside I have always had this knowing ... I couldn't quite put my finger on what I knew, though. I can only describe it as a feeling of something not being revealed to me, something I should have been seeing but couldn't. I just felt misplaced in the world and kept making plans of how to end my life ever since my teens. Then again I felt stupid for not following through - mainly because I was afraid of my messing it up and ending up disabled or paralysed in this body an, hence, in this world I wanted to get out of so desperately. A few years ago, I started trying to get out of this dark hole I felt captured in, seeking the truth through meditation and educating myself on neuroscience and quantum physics as well as a lot of other "stuff" out there. Now, that I am seeing (a bit) more clearly what is actually going on but don't progress as quickly as I'd like, I am hoping that a guided conversation can give me a little nudge. I feel like I am treading water and could use some help moving further along on this journey.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
meditation, meditation retreats, reiki sessions, sessions with different kinds of healers, a lot of reading on everything duality- and non-duality-related

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Vivien
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Re: Going backwards?

Postby Vivien » Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:26 am

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I can assist you with your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily.
If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Wii
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Re: Going backwards?

Postby Wii » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:32 am

Can we agree on these?
Agreed! I may not be able to post daily, but will try to write Mondays through Fridays.

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for?
I recently had a taste of what it means to See the Truth. I got to peek through the open gate, so to speak. After about two or three weeks, though, the gate kind of closed again. Getting a taste of something and then never getting to that point again has been part of my story for quite some time. I just didn't think the same could happen with this journey here. How can one "unsee" the Truth?! My mind is back on autopilot, it seems. It appears I need guidance to get back to where I was a few weeks ago... being able to watch my mind in action instead of being caught on this out-of-control-mind-rollercoaster. Deep down some of the peace I got through Seeing the Truth has remained. But I cannot look at what is going on as an observer anymore. I am back to being caught in my story and I would really like to "step out of the scene" and go back to watching what is happening.

How would your life change if you find that?
I would be more productive, could be a better mother and guide to my hypersensitive son, could be of use to others in more ways than I can be now.

What are you hoping for to change?
I would like to get back the peace of mind I got to experience briefly. I guess it is fair to say: I want to get rid of suffering once and for all.

What do you hope that should happen?
I hope the constant battle with what the mind creates day in and day out will finally come to an end. I have no bleeping idea what happened. One day I was the observer of my story, the next day this "ability" was gone.

Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?
Even though I became the observer for a few weeks, my mind didn't accept the idea of it all being an illusion. A creation I could only watch but not control, yes. But an illusion, no... how could my life be an illusion? So, I guess I have to answer this question with "no, I do not have an image or feeling of what it is or feels like to see through the self-illusion".

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Vivien
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Re: Going backwards?

Postby Vivien » Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:06 am

Hi,

What name would you like me to call you?

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.
being able to watch my mind in action instead of being caught on this out-of-control-mind-rollercoaster.
I don’t know exactly what experience you had, but watching thoughts doesn’t necessarily translate into seeing that the self is just an invented, fictional character, nothing more.
Deep down some of the peace I got through Seeing the Truth has remained.
So what is truth?
But I cannot look at what is going on as an observer anymore.
OK. So being an observer doesn’t necessarily eradicate the belief in the me. Just the identification from being the body-mind moves to being an observer, and yet the notion of a self can still remain.
I am back to being caught in my story and I would really like to "step out of the scene" and go back to watching what is happening.
OK, I understand you. But what if you are not even a watcher?
would be more productive, could be a better mother and guide to my hypersensitive son, could be of use to others in more ways than I can be now.
What you are talking here about are personality traits. But the personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through. The personality is a network of patterns of behaviours, feelings, thinking. These patterns usually don’t change, at least not in the instant when the self is seen through.
I would like to get back the peace of mind I got to experience briefly. I guess it is fair to say: I want to get rid of suffering once and for all.
When there is suffering, it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added on narrative.

All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. The falling away of conditioning can last at the end of the organism.
I hope the constant battle with what the mind creates day in and day out will finally come to an end.
And what if it won’t? What if these inner battles would be just recognized for what they are, just thoughts passing by?
One day I was the observer of my story, the next day this "ability" was gone.
But the observer is still the me. So the illusion probably wasn’t fully seen through, it’s just narrowed down to an observer.
Even though I became the observer for a few weeks, my mind didn't accept the idea of it all being an illusion. A creation I could only watch but not control, yes. But an illusion, no... how could my life be an illusion?
OK. The separate self is what is an illusion. It’s just like a mirage in the desert. It might look like an oasis, but on a closer inspection it turns out that it’s just a play of light (just thoughts passing by).

So, I guess I have to answer this question with "no, I do not have an image or feeling of what it is or feels like to see through the self-illusion".
That’s good. The thing is that it cannot be know in advance how it will be. Why? Because all expectations come on behalf of a separate self, who is always in a search for peace, happiness, lack of fear and suffering. We simply cannot imagine it, since we cannot step outside from the separate self’s perspective. We can only imagine it within the dream of me. The illusionary me is simply unable to imagine how it would be if it were discovered to be just a fictional character and not a reality. It can only imagine what it wants for itself.

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?
And this is where I get stuck. I somehow know that I am not in control and, at the same time, am trying to control ... Do you get what I am trying to say?
Yes. And we can start here if you’d like.

Before starting, please read my above comments carefully a few more times and tell me what comes up by reading the comments about the expectations.
Is there any resistance to any of it?

Do you feel ready to start the investigation?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Wii
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Re: Going backwards?

Postby Wii » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:41 pm

Hi Vivien,

thanks for guiding me! Please use my nickname Wii for this purpose here.

I am ready to start the investigation and dropping expectations almost feels natural or like the next logical step when reading your remarks.

There is still a massive opposition to the idea of the self being an illusion, though. I really want to and have been wanting to accept that notion for a few months now. But no matter which author/book I have turned to, basically hoping that different wording used by different people describing the same topic could bring it home for me, nothing has been able to shake that rigid believe of the seperate self and all the ideas that come with it, so far. I cannot wrap my head around this concept of not existing.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this!

Regards
Wii

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Vivien
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Re: Going backwards?

Postby Vivien » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:57 pm

Hi Wii,
But no matter which author/book I have turned to, basically hoping that different wording used by different people describing the same topic could bring it home for me, nothing has been able to shake that rigid believe of the seperate self and all the ideas that come with it, so far.
I understand what you are saying. The thing is that no matter how many different descriptions we hear about it, if we don’t actually look for ourselves, if we don’t investigate our own immediate experience, no real discovery can happen.
So instead of giving you more ideas (what you already have plenty), we are going to investigate the ones you have to see if they can stand up to scrutiny. So in this way, you can discover for yourself how things actually are, and not just believe in a second-hand information.
I cannot wrap my head around this concept of not existing.
We are not saying that you don’t exist. Actually, the sense of my own existence is the only stable or constant thing that is.
Existence is. Beingness is. Knowing is happening. Experience is. I AM.

The question is not whether you exists or not, rather… are you the thing you believe yourself to be?
You definitely exist, but you are not what you THINK you are.
The thing that does not exists other than an idea is the separate self you believe yourself to be.

So we are going peel off layers you attached to the sense of ‘I amness’, like body, thoughts, emotions / feeling, and all sort of identifications. Currently, you are identifying yourself with things that you are not.

Are you aware right now? – please check
Are you here right now?
Can you not be here?


Just notice the sense of existence, the sense of beingness. It’s always here, no matter what situations are paying out.

But does this sense of beingness / existence need to be called anything?
Does it need an identity to say that this is what I am?
Or it’s just is?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Wii
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:06 am

Re: Going backwards?

Postby Wii » Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:51 am

Hi,

I feel like I am blinded. I am hardly ever "in the moment" or aware of what is while it is. Not that I don't try to be. But given the intensity of my current level of physical and mental exhaustion I don't think I hear you or maybe I am not meant to hear you. I read the comments and questions again and again but they stay on the surface. Nothing sinks in. It is like I must not go there... like liberation is not meant for me or my story :( I cannot force understanding, can I. I am spinning...

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Vivien
Posts: 7057
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Going backwards?

Postby Vivien » Tue Sep 29, 2020 4:17 am

Hi Wii,

I hear you. You just don’t know how to look. But this doesn’t necessarily mean that you are not ready. I do face-to-face skype sessions too, so if you are interested we can look together. That is a quite different experience than doing in a written format. There is an immediate feedback for both of us. I’m sending you a private message about it with more details, so you can decide if you want to try it out or not.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/


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